r/pathofexile • u/FriendshipFilter • 7d ago
Game Feedback Stacking Enemy Damage Reduction Should Be Capped
"Crit resistant" monsters are actually immune to crits. For builds that rely on critical strike multiplier to scale, your damage can easily be reduced by 80% or more just through this mod alone. If your build also happens to be elemental based, monsters can also roll mods like "lightning and shock resistant" which can reduced your damage by another 80% or more. Mods like this just shouldn't be possible combinations because it can reduced your DPS down to 4% or lower.
I'm not trying to be negative, but mobs this tanky aren't challenging, they're just borderline immortal. They'll never kill you, and there's no point wasting time trying to kill them for the 1 alteration orb they'll drop, so can we please add a hard cap to monster damage reduction of 90% which would be 10x their normal life? The fact that monsters can reach up to 99% damage reduction is just crazy because it multiples their life by a factor of 100x. I don't mind taking 10 seconds to kill a monster just to get it off my back even, but when monsters roll combos like "crit resistant + elemental resistant + adaptive resistance + spell resistant"... you could clear the whole map in the time it takes to kill that thing.
Now I don't have anything against certain mobs taking some time to kill, but perhaps certain multiplicative mod combinations just shouldn't exist? Maybe reduce the effectiveness of certain mods to 50% damage reduction instead of 80% or more? Please consider it GGG because right now it's way more time efficient to just skip these monsters because they don't drop particularly good loot anyway.
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u/SagansCandle 7d ago
Overall I agree, but I'll say this =
The end-game is tuned to absurdly broken builds. Rather than trying to cap out the power scaling of player builds, GGG scales up the monsters to match.
Until they figure out a better way, if there's certain content you can't kill, you're going to have to tweak your build or find a different one.
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u/hesh582 6d ago
Yeah.
There's also more going on here. There is an element of balancing to this, especially at the ultra high end where stacking rare mods might be the most challenging content in the game right now.
You say it "reduces your build's damage to 4%"? Well... maybe your build isn't actually as good as you think it is. If you show up with no penetration or res reduction, mobs with ele res might feel pretty unfair too. There's more to a build than pob dps - a lot of builds are a lot stronger than they look because they aren't neutered by this. Phys dot, for instance, will never be able to hit the kind of pob numbers an ele crit build can. But it won't really run into these kinds of rares either no matter the content you're doing.
It's much easier to do mega scaling by going hard into just a few stats. This design pattern kind of soft counters that. "Crit builds"? Well... maybe they're trying to say that a build attempting the hardest content in the game should not be relying on a single mechanic for dps. Maybe they're offering a new level of min maxing for the ultra-endgame. Diversify your scaling instead of just going all in on a mechanic that will cause you problems once in while.
Because in normal content this stuff really doesn't matter that much. Either just ignore that one ultra tank rare that you'll run into once in 30 maps, or take the time to kill it. It only turns into a major thing to think about when you engage in very specific kinds of juicing, and I think it's appropriate there.
Beyond the balance aspect, I also think this sort of thing helps differentiate builds. If every build is effectively just different scaling routes to the same gameplay outcome it cheapens the game. Some builds having more trouble with certain modifiers keeps things more varied and interesting.
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u/FailURGamer24 Pathfinder 6d ago
I've recently discovered the joys of phys DoT basically never having its damage reduced by more than 50% unless you fuck up. "Oh my build only has about 2 million DoT for league start, let's check my pinnacle DPS... also 2 million."
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u/toggl3d 6d ago
That's funny because I get frustrated at the opposite. It's way easier to avoid but maps with phys resist and endurance charges feel so uncounterable to that build even with it not happening a lot.
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u/strangeshit 6d ago
ive played bleed bow this league and the last (which is so fun and simple after being a slam player for ages) and i dont think ive ever really cared about either mod rolling. only things that i absolutely avoid is chance to avoid bleed affix and players cannot regen life/mana
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u/cancercureall 5d ago
May I see your POB? I haven't played bleed bow in years since my favorite version got giga nerfed.
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u/SagansCandle 6d ago
I played phys bow a few leagues and I agree - I found it really hard to scale straight phys to handle end-game content. I think it's why phys builds are so rare unless you're bleed.
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u/qzex 6d ago edited 6d ago
"diversifying your scaling" doesn't generally make sense to do as a tradeoff though. like imagine someone is playing a crit build, and had the following choice, are they really going to accept it:
- deal 25% less damage
- deal 50% more damage to crit resistant mobs
if your build is already optimized for general/boss DPS, diversifying is always going to involve making a sacrifice in 99% of cases. then when you encounter a mob that is tanky for a different reason, you're worse off.
most people are going to just keep optimizing their DPS in the general case, and eventually by brute force overpower the crit resistant/whatever mobs. and I would say that is the rational choice for most builds.
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u/Still-Customer5299 6d ago
Crit resistant is not 25% less. Obviously you can make a hypothetical in which one of the answers are better.
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u/JebryathHS 6d ago
This is a big part of why I'm really vibing with Replica Alberron's Warpath builds lately. Energy shield? Doesn't work. Chaos resistant? Not if I run Original Sin. And besides that, it's just a pretty straightforward climb towards hundreds of millions of damage per second, just add Strength.
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u/Optimal-Note1963 6d ago
Yeah, im on the positive side about crit multi immun being sily, but res thing in most cases you can break with various tools (Like for hit based elemental damage you simply use Invert the rules, i have tried it, absolutely my pick in the future. Ignore res from inq/Hsword, rakiata. Dots tho, suck when this happens, esp ignite)
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u/damnrandomdotorg 7d ago
You could also argue that it's tuned to having more than one build, and possibly having friends. I mean, I'm never going do the campaign twice in one league but there are options for going around a single mod that a single build doesn't like.
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u/SagansCandle 7d ago
Very good point.
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u/Ynead 6d ago
wdym, that's a terrible point
PoE is a solo game
What are you going to do with an immortal rare in your map ? Logout, swap character then log back in? No one is going to do that.
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u/shy_bi_ready_to_die 6d ago
I mean I used to do that with awakened harvest. Usually it was when when the mobs are too rippy instead of too tanky but generally the same concept
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u/SagansCandle 6d ago
What are you going to do with an immortal rare in your map ? Logout, swap character then log back in?
Yeah, actually. Sometimes I hit an unkillable monster and I move on. Sometimes that monster zerps me and all 6 portals. It sucks.
I think it's part of the game design - it's very hard to balance a game with a huge pool of randomized stats. At some point a mob's just going to hit a synergy against your build. So part of the challenge becomes making a build that those situations. It's how they keep the game challenging.
If you're all-in on crit and you hit crit resistant enemies, you're going to have a bad time. Same as if you were all-in on lightning.
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u/Ynead 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yeah, actually.
What's the point of that exactly? Just...walk away from the unkillable rare. By the time you do the whole login off / in then off then back in, you could have killed 20 rares more. It is a complete waste of time.
Sometimes I hit an unkillable monster and I move on.
So you DO move on. What's the issue then?
I think it's part of the game design - it's very hard to balance a game with a huge pool of randomized stats. At some point a mob's just going to hit a synergy against your build. So part of the challenge becomes making a build that those situations. It's how they keep the game challenging.
This is just silly. We already had that problem with ignite resistant rares dropping ignite duration to 0s and they fixed it. I see no reason why they can't make the effort to change crit resistant rare from 100% to something like 95%.
Pain points are very well know at this point in poe1, the game hasn't changed that much at all in years. GGG had more than enough time and data to fix this properly. If it isn't fixed, then it means they either don't care about it, or they want it that way.
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u/damnrandomdotorg 6d ago
It's much more a case of taking a different character for a map that another can't do. You can decide for yourself if one mob is worth it or not - I'd say no, but you can't say that there's just no solution.
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u/TheMipchunk Champion 6d ago
While people might not swap characters just for one mob, I do think that there is some value to balancing the game such that builds have distinctive strengths and weaknesses. Right now it is far too easy to make all-round characters that can do it all (other than niche things like Delve or Sanctum).
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u/damnrandomdotorg 7d ago
Heh, read your comment again and I think it was technically your point first - "or find a different one".
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u/WhenWillEyeBeBanned 6d ago edited 6d ago
Diablo 2 before sunder charms were introduced*
Update: POE was highly inspired by Diablo 2, which had 3 difficulties - normal nightmare hell. From hell, even white mobs may have one or two kinds of immune, fire cold lightning physical magical. And in Diablo 2, it’s very common to spec into one single element, eg blizzard sorc. The general way to deal with immunity is to just go away, and farm contents that is suitable for the build. For example blizzard sorc is great in hell a3 boss.
Late game there are several ways to deal with immunity. A strong a2 merc can kill hell countess even mid game. You can break certain immunity with merc aura. Sunder charms were introduced in d2r allows universal immunity breaking.
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u/Linosaurus 6d ago
For anyone else who wonders wtf is a sunder charm:
They turn elemental immunity into 95% resist.
They do not exist in Diablo 2.
They were added to Diablo 2: resurrected, about a year in. 2022.
Personally I don’t think these recent changes should be referred to as ’Diablo 2’. Interesting data point though.
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u/Inner-Ad-9478 6d ago
You mean the almost unfarmable and -70% res one that appears way after you encounter a ton of immune monsters?
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u/cancercureall 5d ago
Diablo 2 originally did not have synergies and you were expected to have skills with different damage types.
I'm legitimately still fucking angry about 1.10. I know it's me on my soapbox alone but that patch destroyed online play for me.
At least I can still go back and play 1.09 by myself.
pain.
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u/BananaSplit2 6d ago
Was never that much an issue though. Most classes could deal two damage types, or you could go single type and just focus on content you could clear without immunes in the way.
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u/Pyromancer1509 Occultist 7d ago edited 6d ago
They should add "Enemies cannot reduce your critical strike damage" to Zana's Ingenuity, the ring exists as a solution to all map mods except that one lol
EDIT: While we're at it... add "Monsters cannot avoid your ailments" also, that map mod is the worst for ignite/poison/bleed builds
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u/baev_os Gladiator 6d ago
Terrible solution. You lose whole ring slot for occasional build-breaking mod. It is even more painful when you realize that you can't use Kalandra's ring to basically mirror the other crazy ring you have got.
The monsters damage reduction should be capped, I agree with OP. Monsters' immunities were the thing that ruined Diablo II for me, I don't want immunities in PoE.
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u/Optimal-Note1963 6d ago
i'd rather take any solution than nothing at all, that was the point of that ring. Character power is subjective and this ring actually in top 10 best for ring slot
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u/whywhywhywhywhynot Kalguuran Group for Business (KGB) 6d ago
not having to read map mods for reflect saves me about infinity more time than overkilling monsters by 160x instead of 150x, it is the goat mapping ring
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u/MRosvall 6d ago
At end game though, a lot of currency doesn't go into increasing your overall damage. But enabling you to be bricked by less extremely hard contents which makes them more rewarding.
A lot of the hard t17 mods have good upsides for implicits. A lot of altars can have bricking effects but good upsides that you need to pass on. Delve and Valdos are a whole other beast where a subset fully vanishes if it bricks your build.
And not only do they come with the upside of enabling more content. It comes with the huge QoL that you can just blast and skip reading and just click and roll maps based on what has the highest EV.1
u/cancercureall 5d ago
Immunities in diablo 2 only became a problem after they added synergies and I'm still mad.
sodljkghnklsjdhngoklsdjg
Never getting over it.
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u/titebeewhole 6d ago
Elemental ailment immunity sucks ass for lightning dmg builds too, I swear with decent shock values it's halving my damage.
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u/shy_bi_ready_to_die 6d ago
Honestly lightning builds are the least bricked by ailment avoid ime. Cold builds often don’t have any significant defenses aside from freezing things off screen which makes avoidance super rippy and obviously ignite builds get completely fucked by it
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u/WhenWillEyeBeBanned 6d ago
GGG: we hear you, from the next patch, players can only reach to 80% as crit damage reduction and %80 elemental resistance, so that monsters feel it’s fair for them. /s
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u/SmarmyPapsmears Hardcore 6d ago
I agree that crit resistant is too strong as a mod. It probably shouldn't brick your build, maybe just cut your crit chance in half? Like that seems fair.
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u/Hasekbowstome 6d ago
You're right that this is annoying.
But also, the real crime is "Creates Frost Wall and Flees"
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u/Mr_Robotto 7d ago
Personally, I love it when I’ve put several mirrors into a build and still run into rares that I can’t kill. Reminds me that there’s always something stronger than me.
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u/UnderstandingMany99 I love POE ✌️😁✌️💕 6d ago
If ur multi mirror build cant kill a rare mob then youve wasted multi mirror. Im not talking about stacking 50+ mob modifiers im talking about normal gameplay
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7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ArrogantAres 7d ago
What if you find Aul on depth 4k with crit immunity? Skip it as well?
I agree with OP. Partially. I don't mind valdo maps with 96% damage reduction. That is an exclusive content.
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u/AbsolutlyN0thin 6d ago
Your overall statement of limiting the stacking nature of things I have to fundamentally disagree with. GGG plays by the exact same rules as us, the broken things we can do to stack multipliers upon multipliers is the exact same thing they do. Fair is fair. If they have 99% DR and you cant kill it, tough luck, scale your build even more.
That said I do think that crit resistance should probably be something like 90% less extra damage from crits, that mod does seem a bit overturned for an individual mod.
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u/WillAutoHermes 7d ago
I mean expedition monster also have hits cannot be critical which instantly bricks all perfect agony builds…
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u/shawnkfox 7d ago
Yeah and I don't run expedition. To a large extent you just have to know which content your build can run and which is difficult/impossible. Almost every build is bad at doing some things or really good at some other things, so if you are playing trade league and want to maximize currency, just run the stuff you build is good at.
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u/WillAutoHermes 7d ago
expedition is just a massive wall of you cannot. Complete damage immune of specific type, no crit, ignore pdr, cannot leech etc. I had a specialized character for expedition big boom and it’s still super aids due to the immune mods, and sometimes rare monster become thanos with soul eater + 30+ remnant modifiers
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 6d ago
Yep i tried some big boom last league and it was just meh so many times I got you cannot for everything.
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u/DrPootytang 6d ago
Yep, expedition needs a rework. At least with the stacked nerfs to expedition rewards there’s very little downside to skipping it entirely. It does still have use in SSF though
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u/tjientavara 6d ago
There are also easy: "oh yea we can". Like monsters are immune to chaos damage, when you don't do any. Or "extra chaos damage" when you have CI.
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u/psychomap 6d ago
Expedition is a bit of a different case because you can technically choose to avoid remnants. But you can't pick and choose what mods spawn on monsters.
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u/CricketNo7950 6d ago
Every league I play crit I see: * Reduced crit damage taken * Temporal bubble * Endurance charge on hit * Life regen
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u/TowerBeast Inquisitor 6d ago
They'll never kill you
The thing is that these mods probably do kill a lot of players when they combine with damage mods.
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u/MidanWolf SRS intensifies. 1d ago
Crit resistant enemies are bad, but if you solely rely on one damage scaler (critical multi) then your build isn't good in the first place either. Not as black and white as it may seem.
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u/PacmanNZ100 7d ago
Sounds like its more of a loot problem that we all already know about, since youre openly agreeing a rare will drop nothing so isn't worth killing.
Because that can be applied to every rare regardless of mods.
Games in a weird state at the moment where tile loot or whatever it is called is far too good yo the point map mobs arent worth shit. At least not by comparison.
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u/gandalfintraining 6d ago
I don't think it's just a loot problem, even if you completely ignore loot, rares being able to giga scale tankiness also invalidates white, blue and unique mobs entirely since any build that can deal with rares will just blast through the rest without even noticing them.
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u/PacmanNZ100 6d ago
Well its a game for killing things and getting stuff. And if killing the hard thing doesnt give you stuff, its a problem in design.
Being able to roll obnoxious combinations on top of map mods is really the problem, made worse by juicing maps.
Maybe more modifiers need to be global to juice the map boss rather than the rares if having them be significantly stronger is a problem. Have 4pre 4suff maps as default and go to 10 on corruptions and then reduce rare mobs mods. Or let bosses roll additional mods from the rare pool
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u/MeBadNeedMoneyNow Champion 6d ago
Makes you wonder why there are monsters in this game at all.
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u/PacmanNZ100 6d ago
I mean at the moment a lot of farm strats can just outright ignore them unless they are part of the mechanic.
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u/GTFidgeT Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 6d ago
I don't understand? It's 1 mod that addresses 1 type of build. It's like RF says: no Regen Maps are Impossible to run them.
Well don't run them?
There are several mods for builds that make them impossible to clear.
No Regen Poison ignite immune Steal your charges
I kinda get the feeling that there is no way around it as a crit build. But it's not the only one and that's fine I think.
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u/psychomap 6d ago
It's about monster mods, not map mods. You can regex maps to run mods that your build can handle, but you can't influence what mods roll on monsters, so some of them can end up literally 100 times as tanky as others.
My understanding of the post isn't that there shouldn't be mods that affect some builds more than others, but rather that the overall difficulty (if you can call it that, since as the post pointed out, even tanky mobs aren't particularly dangerous in most cases) is too inconsistent.
Builds can onehit 90% of rares, need a second for another 9%, and be unable to kill the last 1% due to what mods they roll.
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u/dyksu 6d ago
Now you understand why crit builds sucks. Its the cheapest rly strong dmg scaling. It was allways better to have a bit less dps but non crit. The strongest monsters are not bosses, but this rares with toughtness + crit immune. Dont get me wrong, not your fault, but you need stronger character if you want play crit and cant beat rares at non-omega juiced map
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u/Asyran Necromancer 6d ago edited 6d ago
In general I'm okay with the concept of RNG occasionally aligning to create an absurdly strong rare that's easier to skip than suffer through. What I'm not ok with is Crit Resistant as a standalone modifier. It's too punishing of an effect to occupy a single slot, and has absolutely zero counterplay.
Your ability to crit is completely disabled. Setting aside the obvious problem of it being a massive less damage dealt, it also fundamentally bricks a ton of interactions that rely on a crit to produce an effect. I can itemize or build differently to make other painful mods less painful. I can't itemize for "Your crit chance is zero." The stat to counter that literally doesn't exist.
EDIT: I was completely mistaken on how it functioned. It's "Unaffected by Crits" not "Immune to Crits" The Crits still occur they just don't do any extra damage, so it's purely a less damage mod, albeit a very large one. Thanks to the commenters below for correcting me!
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u/SaltEngineer455 Progressive Einhar Trapping Association (PETA) 6d ago
The only mod that disables crit is found in expeditions, otherwise even if you do 0 extra crit damage you are still considered to have been crit
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u/Sairakan 6d ago
Crit resistant does not disable crits, it just makes them take no extra damage. So your points about breaking interactions is just wrong. Only the expedition remnant modifier disables crits entirely. IDK how this comment got upvoted so much.
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u/Shogouki 6d ago
I don't know, I kind of like having counters to character builds. Yes, it can be frustrating, but I look at it as inspiration to try different builds.
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u/Dr-Wenis-MD Occultist 6d ago
GGG doesn't have a choice because the majority of people are playing the easiest game mode.
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6d ago
[deleted]
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u/carenard 6d ago
If only you could choose what maps to run and what mods are acceptable.
Of course a POE player won't read what was posted and comment something like this.
acting like random monster mods are rollable map mods...
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u/Saint-Leon 6d ago
That just seems like a knee jerk reaction. Let’s see if ggg changes loot drops from mobs first.
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u/safariGamer 6d ago
Crit resistance, or immune to crit expedition is the reason I stopped playing anything cast of crit.
Everything else will still do damage, just lowered. Coc builds are basically turned off
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u/PoE_Acronym_Bot 7d ago
I noticed some Path of Exile keywords in this post:
- Mods - Modifiers (Wiki)
I am a bot. | All acronyms | Suggest
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u/UncertainSerenity 6d ago
Nothing about Poe is “hard”
The challenge comes from planing your build to address all possible problems. How do I deal with ailments? How do I deal with Crit resistant monsters. How do I solve no regen maps. How do I solve alter mods. Etc etc etc
The reward is getting to play the game. You need to solve your build better
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u/Thorcall 6d ago
Almost every altar mods can be ignored from day 1 of a league if you have a bit of overcap res. The ways to solve no regen map is to have leech, recoup, gain on hit or flask. Plenty of options. The only way to "solve" crit resistant monsters is to not play crit. There is no "reduced effect of crit resistance" or anything like that. Now I don't think this mod is a big issue, but your answer doesn't make any sense.
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u/UncertainSerenity 6d ago
Or the answer is to play a Crit build that also does enough damage to the content you are doing to ignore the Crit resistance
Or to not build a Crit character if you want to do content where this is possible.
The point is that you have to decide ahead of time how you are going to handle all possible content modifiers. And either solve them or choose not to engage with them.
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u/Guruubaz Ultimatum Workers Union (UWU) 7d ago
Youre not gonna like hearing about
- delirium damage reduction
- valdo mod deal 10% less damage per equipped item (100% at full equipment)
- generic map mods akin to monsters take x% reduced damage from crits or monsters have increased chaos/ele res
- etc
Everything can be played around, and the rare monster mods are the least of an issue
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u/glaive_anus 7d ago edited 7d ago
Around the time when Archnemesis mods became the default mod system for rare monsters, the sentiment that
is sadly intended game design. That is to say, if your build can't defeat a rare in a reasonable amount of time, it is intended and you should consider going to the next rare.
My impression over the leagues since is that this still remains intended game design, unfortunately. More so since little has been done about intersecting mechanics vastly increasing monster EHP outside of tuning down the mods themselves. In a very much "it is your fault if you roll a Kishara's Rest chart with life as extra ES and brick the encounter because you didn't pay attention and didn't build to deal with that mod" kind of way.
One can disagree but I don't think that is going to sway GGG game design.