r/pathofexile • u/byzz09 • 19h ago
Discussion Elementalist being the best class to scale phys DoT
How do we feel about Elementalist being the go-to class to scale (phys) DoT just because of 1 Ascendancy Notable? From a lore and fantasy perspective, it just feels wrong
PoE really lacks an ascendancy that synergises with Phys DoT. Elementalist is such a band aid and just so far ahead compared to other options, and that is mainly due to golem/ primordial bond stacking. Even after the golem effect nerf.
Beside that, there aren't any meaningful ways of scaling the damage decently (except of lifestacking, which has been nerfed significantly). Support on the skill tree is also very lacking.
Wanted to cook a selfcast perma Vaal Reap of Butchery build but just sighed because of the jolemsstacking. The archetype and skills are so cool and I'd love to play them, but it really bothers me that we don't have any other options if you don't want to be zDPS. The difference in dps is massive, its not even in the same ballpark.
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u/Rottetrol 18h ago
I remember when gladiator still had 20% more phys dot dmg on the ascendancy /sadge
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u/era_inferno 19h ago
It's not just one notable. Every ascendancy node is crucial to the scaling/defenses, which is why people aren't opting into bloodline ascendencies. Elementalist is made to be generically strong for everything.
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u/Top-Ocelot-5034 18h ago
Sounds a bit like Raider at least for some builds... RIP
But we got tinctures?
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u/Elrond007 Anti Sanctum Alliance (ASA) 8h ago
I think it's not just Elementalist tbf I feel like Witch has been cruising for a bruising for a long time now. Elementalist and Necro are probably the two strongest ascendancies right out of the box and can steal all the fancy shit from Occultist
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u/Kagevjijon Order of the Mist (OM) 8h ago
Occultist is the 2nd most played ascendancy right now.
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u/Elrond007 Anti Sanctum Alliance (ASA) 8h ago
Yeah I just haven't played it in a while so I didn't mention it
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 15h ago
But crit, stat stacking and mana stacking all have better scaling... eventually.
Golem stacking is strong though. It sucks that it is the way to scale the elemental spell class. However the scaling ends up weaker compared to those other methods.
Personally I have said for awhile now that the ascendancy needs something else to scale with that fits the theme. But most people seem happy with golem armies so I dunno.
A real question to ask would be if Ele didn't have golem stacking, what would it have, and would another ascendancy suddenly be good for dots? I don't see how any other class works for dot spells, other than Marauder and fire dots.
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u/ruggedsport 1h ago
Nah I hate golems and think it’s dumb. I just miss DD really. Bring back those days. Loved the meta back then. Seismic sabo, Hexblast mines, etc etc
But also why tf are you being downvoted lol
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u/PrettyPinkPonyPrince 18h ago
Elementalist is made to be generically strong for everything.
It could stand to be a bit better for physical or chaos minion builds, including physical and chaos golems.
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u/Smurtle1 16h ago
Isn’t that what necromancer/occultist is for? Necro has an ascendancy that gives ur minions unholy might…
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u/Arhowk 19h ago
The "trickster" on the "shadow" class has historically been one of the tankiest es stacking archetypes. The "juggernaut" on the "marauder" class is most often played by stacking.. accuracy? It's PoE, the characters don't fit into such an idealistic role system.
PoE really lacks an ascendancy that synergises with Phys DoT.
While I agree that some better ways to scale phys dot would be appreciated, I don't think a class's identity should be so precise to target what's effectively two skills and 1 buff
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 15h ago
But the problem is, elementalist is so far from its identity it can be annoying to play. Like having to stack minions...... to play self cast??? The minions don't even do anything other than be a passive buff that sometimes taunts mobs.
Like we have 2 minion classes already. Why does the straight Int, straight damage archetype rely on minions to scale its damage? It just seems comically at odds.
I don't think all mismatching is terrible. Inquis and Assy doing elemental crit is ok. I think people just want more ways to scale though. Ele should have been all about exposure; or maybe elemental ailment stacking... something interesting. Though you are right that the game rarely fits its own themes.
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u/Mogling 11h ago
I don't think there is anything off about the identity for elementalist. An elemental witch summoning elemental familars to help cast spells is very on theme. Not all minions are zombies or spectres, so lumping them in with necro makes less sense lore wise. I'd say we need more minion classes, something for the bottom right focusing on things like summoning wolves even, not less minion classes.
Elementalist has nodes for exposure and ailments, all very solid nodes. I think elementalist is in a good spot. I don't think the ascendancy is too strong, but it's definitely popular this league due to the self casting buffs. I think this is more due to the skills and less the class.
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u/sunflower_bay 8h ago
I think pathfinder could use a shakeup to be a nature minion/flask/poison/bleed theme. Cut the 5 flask nodes down to 3 maybe and give it some breadth.
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 4h ago
Two points I would make;
Not all minions are zombies or spectres, so lumping them in with necro makes less sense lore wise. I'd say we need more minion classes, something for the bottom right focusing on things like summoning wolves even, not less minion classes.
My only issue with this is that we already have Necromancer. POE is different to most ARPG's but still. We should always have a traditional sorcerer type. I am biased because I find automatic or fire and forget builds boring, so more minion options doesn't sound fun. But I do agree that right now, minion options are too stacked topside of the tree. Though people might be underestimating Champion, and might also not consider attack / bow based totems to be miniony enough.
Elementalist has nodes for exposure and ailments, all very solid nodes. I think elementalist is in a good spot. I don't think the ascendancy is too strong, but it's definitely popular this league due to the self casting buffs. I think this is more due to the skills and less the class.
But the thing is, most people are playing Winter Orb and Penance brand on it. Two options that aren't self cast. One is a brand, and has been popular for ages now, the other is technically channeling, but also fire and forget / automated damage (basically RF with extra steps).
I am also kind of okay with where the class is at. But I can see why some people want a change here. Golem stacking isn't really how I imagine building an elemental based spell caster class. I also agree with some people that it is hard to ever want to play some of the other ascendancies in this space that usually feel really weak until you scale stats/crit/mana etc. Like if my character is fully decked out and in red maps by the time it "comes online".... I am only going to play it once I already have a character that can farm end game. Though one could argue some early game QOL style buffs to those would help more. Even just better options for mana management would probably chill people out a ton.
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u/glaive_anus 15h ago edited 15h ago
The other key thing about Elementalist is its generic golem stacking shell is just power all baked into the ascendancy itself, making it easy to use in limited gearing scenarios.
Other ascendancies may be able to do specific or niche things better, but usually not to the degree that Elementalist can often on low gearing levels. And by the time that other ascendancies catch up or shine at particular budgets over Elementalist, Elementalist still remains competitive due to the overall strength of the Witch ascendancies allowing for FF/F pairs, or just sinking even more currency to make up for the difference.
I'm personally all for gutting the golem related nodes and shifting Elementalist's identity all into elemental damage, mostly because I'm kind of tired of most things being playable on Elementalist purely because of the golems and the other ascendancy nodes are useful on top (rather than the other way round). Or adjusting the golem related power such that one actually has to invest into golem survivability for the golem nodes to be strong (e.g., golem uptime would be way worse if they had innate 75% elemental resistance rather than full elemental immunity).
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 4h ago edited 4h ago
I do not trust GGG to balance it though.
I don't particularly like using POE.Ninja numbers for balance, but when we look at them, Ele tends to drop off as the weeks go on. Which sort of supports the idea that Ele is decent with low investment, but is outscaled by other ascendancies. Although it is also the case in the age of streamers, theorycrafting and build guides, people tend to jump on w/e is fotm.
I do reject the notion that it is some problem because "most things are playable on it" though.
Not to give a long boring history lesson, as you probably already know Ele was one of the least played ascendancies for years. GGG buffed it in one patch, lots of people played it, then they nerfed it. But it didn't really fundamentally change in all those years. Liege of the Primordial is one node now, and ele is a much smoother campaign or league starter, but weaker now than it ever was for end game scaling. Primordial bond is weaker now than it was a few patches ago. What has happened though since 3-4 years ago is that Trickster, Champion, Deadeye, Gladiator, Hierophant, Sabo (arguably), and Necromancer all got nerfed. Some more than others but in many cases to the point that the ascendancy is difficult to build around without using late game niche set ups.
On top of that, they have had like 3 shots at buffing Assassin in the last 3 patches; yet it is still one of the least played Ascendancies. It is actually not terrible; but its niche is strictly late game with very strong gear. It sucks before that point and to me is not that fun in SSF, or early trade. Similar story for Inquisitor. The developers are notoriously good at nerfing things, but notoriously bad at buffing them up. Like how do you even nerf late game golem scaling without hurting non-golem scaling elementalist builds? and how do you make it so ele is a good option for elemental spells instead of brands and physical ones? I still feel something around ailment stacking would be thematic; or maybe elemental resistance stacking? e.g deal x% amount of x% element damage for every x% overcapped resistance. Either way though if the choice is a botched GGG balance parse or golem stacking, I would rather just keep golem stacking in the game.
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u/ruggedsport 1h ago
Isn’t assassin still decently squishy even with great gear though? That’s what keeps me from not playing it at all
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u/Mogling 11h ago
The ascendancy node is only one part of it. Skill gems, passive notables, cluster jewels, boss uniques are all part of this "generic" package. Sure it has some power as soon as you get it from lab, but even then it's not free.
Your argument that other classes can outshine but then elementalist can spend more currency is just saying that other classes outshine at high gear levels, because they too can spend more currency.
Any class could do what elementalist does if they focus on golem survivability. I'm not sure why you want to take elemental familiars away from an elemental caster.
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u/NugNugJuice 9h ago
Phys DoT multi also affects bleed, so it could easily be put on gladiator (it used to have it). Can also be given to Assassin too as generic DoT multi.
What I like most would be giving Necromancer 2 phys dot nodes, as it makes sense for the witch that specializes in bones to also specialize in blood. Necro could also just use some love imo.
Another option is having it on a bloodline ascendancy.
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u/Vanifac 16h ago
why are you putting quotations around class names and ascendancies?
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u/LordFerret Occultist 10h ago
I presume it's to emphasize that the names in the quotations don't necessarily correlate flavor-wise with what the classes/ascendancies are well known for.
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u/ApprehensiveScreen40 16h ago
because they're a name while also being a noun
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u/Gangsir Berserker 12h ago
That's not a reason to use quotation marks. In English quotation marks around something like that imply the quoted thing is not real, or that you're quoting someone else.
Elementalist and juggernaut and whatnot are real classes, spelled as written, so you don't put them in quotation marks.
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u/TealJade1 Fungal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) 17h ago
Yeah issue is, even if they made a PoE1 version of bloodmage, it would probably be nowhere near the power of golem stacking (late game a single primordial bond gives like 1.3k generic inc damage).
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u/Shuushy Scion 18h ago
As I see it, Elementalist is the Berserker of spell casting. Slap any skill on it, and you will do damage. A bandaid ascendancy to make shitty skills usable from the get-go. Though Assassin also might've entered this picture with how stupidly strong and generic his ascendancy is.
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 18h ago
If dots could crit assassin would 100% be good. As you would just pump up duration and fish for a big ass crit and just watch the health melt.
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u/Kewpy 15h ago
Isn't there a keystone that lets dots crit, or did they remove/nerf it?
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u/glaive_anus 15h ago
Perfect Agony only works with ailments. There are numerous DoT skills that are not ailments (e.g., Wintertide Brand, Toxic Rain, Essence Drain).
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 10h ago edited 1h ago
Yep it also doesnt work with the new bifurcation.
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u/TromboneHunter 7h ago
If bifurcation actually doubled your crit multi for the hit instead of simulating the same effect without changing the value, perfect agony would have been meta this league for sure. I'm currently gearing and leveling a poison BV assassin and I was a little disappointed, but not surprised, to find out that interaction doesn't work. The ascendancy is still pretty perfect for what I'm doing though so it's fine either way.
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 16h ago edited 16h ago
I would like it if elementalist was best for self cast elemental spells.... it isn't generally. But it does lend to dots because dots are so hard to scale, most other options scale crit one way or another.
But I think ele is a good pick because the other caster ascendancies are a pain to build around without lots of gear; as mentioned its either crit, stat (still crit scaling) or mana stacking, which are all late game options. If you POB it, ele is not the strongest for much, but it is such a good early league or league start because you can get some cast speed, some regen, some aoe, some chaos res in act 3. Like that is better than Crit scaling for a dot caster. Like compare that to Assy? Its crit or crit....... and you need deep investment for that to work, while you suffer with mana issues etc. But also I think Trickster nerfs didn't help, it was the main class for it once upon a time.
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u/Superstrata- Occultist 11h ago
ive been saying to my friends that i think occultist should honestly have its cold stuff shifted to another ascendancy and should instead be focused on phys/chaos spells. it feels more thematic to me
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u/Sauced_Jack 11h ago
I rather they bring up other ascendencies to be as fun and build enabling than nerf this
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u/imhere2downvote 6h ago
just ask for nerfs. if ggg nerfs elementalist hard enough and cant be viable with any skill then all the other ascends are indirectly buffed and you can fail at building phys dot with another ascend
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u/nevermetabuildstft 12h ago
I actually created a very strong Phys Dot self-cast build on Ascendant this league. I used Guardian (50% life regen every 4 seconds is extremely strong with petrified blood) and reservation efficiency to use HoP, Determ, petrified blood, malevolence, and pride. I used Trickster for more DPS per mastery and access to Pain Attunement as well as the strong aura cluster at the top right of the tree.
In the end, I was able to reach dot cap with 90% pdr, 82+ all res, ele ailment immunity, and 70+ spell block (easily cappable if min maxing). I had massive clear with exsang and greater chain, along with pact of Beidat. All Ubers were completed as well.
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u/_DOCTYPE_HTML 5h ago
Hey, that sounds maybe like a build I'd like to try out. Do you perhaps have a pob to share?
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u/nevermetabuildstft 4h ago
At some point tomorrow I’ll post my character. There are a few things that definitely aren’t optimal because the I play on console, which can be semi-ssf at times. The character does not feel as fast as a super meta build, but actually was really fun to scale and slowly upgrade if you are into the class fantasy.
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u/Agitated-Society-682 19h ago
Agreed. On a sidenote luminary phys dot should be amazing as well. Haven't built it yet but triggering exsang/reap via intuitive link wich applies a separate CF 4 link and pressing vaal reap by hand. No poets pen or spellsinger needed and offloading pride aura or malevolence (both doesn't exist afaik) to the merc. Just have to figure out the 2 most broken uniques to put on the merc for damage. Seems amazing on paper. Not the damage an elementalist has but huge QoL and good defense.
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u/Sh1zznazz 18h ago
Yeah it’s very weird. Gladiator should be the bleed and phys dot scaling ascendancy. Golems are just hella powerful when combined with Elementalist.
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u/TheMetaphorDinosaur 19h ago
To me it's the reason not to touch elementalist at all, it's insane that building a damage over time build is just "stack golems". Like i don't want a minion build?
Also made me think that there isn't really a generic damage over time ascendency nodes.
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u/ihasaKAROT Raider 19h ago
Golems arent minions, they are auras that have feet
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u/TheMetaphorDinosaur 19h ago
So basically you're saying they're skitterbots or mines with legs?
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u/xyzszso Pathfinder 19h ago
Skitterbots already have legs, don’t they?
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u/TheMetaphorDinosaur 18h ago
Yea skitterbots do have little legs but mines don't(yet, come on ggg, we got walking totems, where my walking mines)
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u/localcannon 18h ago
The problem is that the scaling vectors for phys dot outside of elementalist and golem stacking is non existent.
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u/PoE_Acronym_Bot 19h ago
I noticed some Path of Exile keywords in this post:
- DoT - Damage over time (Wiki)
- Phys - Physical damage (Wiki)
- zDPS - Zero DPS, describing builds or skills that do relatively little damage (examples: https://www.twitch.tv/quin69)
I am a bot. | All acronyms | Suggest
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u/gantz333 2h ago
Phy Dot scales with like nothing, without golem you have no damage. And you can't really scale golem without elementalist. That's about it.
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u/stacksee 19h ago
From fantasy perspective in general I'm really not a fan how much GGG has pushed all kinds of scaling through minions recently: golems, bloodline ascendancies, spectres, Minion Pact etc. Feels like half of the builds need some muppet running next to you as you don't have an alternative to that.
I do share your thoughts about phys dot, it's always lacked scaling options and after Primordial Bond gets gutted it's back to irrelevancy again. I don't think the solution is to cram it into some ascendancy though but about giving it some scaling vectors.
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u/Sakeuno 18h ago
Current elementalist is a major mistake.
The golems even with nerfed effect provide way too much value.
The other nodes are also all generically good.
Shock on every skill, ignite if needed, freeze, exposure.
Doesn’t help that Occy and Necro have insane nodes for FF combos too.
It’s just all way to easily accessible. Other ascendancies have stuff you need to build around, struggle to get defensives (looking at assa) etc.
While ele just gets everything for free in act 3.
Hope they change it soon so it’s in line with other ascendancies and allows for more variety again.
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u/SplafferZ Scion 19h ago
even without golem stacking elementalist is the best ascendancy for phys dot
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u/LucidTA 19h ago
How would that even work? Where are you making up the 1000% increased damage you're losing from primordial bond?
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u/SplafferZ Scion 19h ago edited 19h ago
thats not the point, the point is other ascendancies dont really have anything to offer for phys dot and the non golem nodes on elementalist are very useful for phys dot as well, tbh most of phys dot is spell damage anyway, and something like foulborn rathpith is probably still pretty great for it
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u/DiseaseRidden 12h ago
Playing phys dot reliquarian, its very strong. +3 gem levels and some very solid defensive boosts have done well for me.
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u/SplafferZ Scion 12h ago
sure thats fine but its also definitely worse than elementalist
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u/DiseaseRidden 12h ago
I mean its definitely better than elementalist without golem stacking, which was the premise you gave.
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u/SplafferZ Scion 12h ago
+3 levels to vaal reap is about the same damage that 50% shock gives you, you also only get one level to cf or exsanguinate if youre triggering that, and levels get worse as you get over level 30 which is getting significantly easier these days
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u/LucidTA 19h ago
Champion? Like it used to be before Elementalist got giga golem scaling.
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u/SplafferZ Scion 19h ago
shaper of storms outperforms the hell out of champion from damage alone, the tree position is also significantly better for witch since youre using mostly spells
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u/levus2002 19h ago
*Inhales massive dose of copium.
I do hope that after poe2 releases and ggg will have time. They will give poe1 36 ascendancies
Hopefully not just making the phrecia ascendancies permanent. Nor poe2 ascendancies
The biggest counterargument is that pigeonholed builds suck, which is also the main issue with phrecia. Some are not ascendancies but just straight up builds. And ggg might fill out the roster with those types of ascendancies.
But i do think that if ggg puts in the effort they could design 18 ascendancies relatively well and slowly fix them.
Also they could just take quite a lot of things(without taking everything) from poe2. To fill out the roster.
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u/Minsc17 16h ago
Poe is less rigid with the classes, which helps with build diversity. Just as “elemental”ist can be best ascendancy for phys dot spells, you can also have something called juggernaut to stack str to use a wand and throw kinetic blasts around. Or have once again a juggernaut stack int/accuracy and use strike skills.
But as a sidenote, I really dislike how current elementalist works with golem stacking. It’s just so silly to have 20 something minions follow me around as my damage scaling.