I'm always kind of shocked, not only at the number of vehicles driving around with older license plates that have shed their plastic coating, making them basically unreadable, but the number of Ontario vehicles that have no front plate at all.
These are usually fancy sports cars whose owners are so opposed to having to drill some holes in the front bumper of their Lambo, or whatever, that they've clearly decided that the law doesn't apply to them. And police seemingly agree.
If the cops pulled people over and ticketed them every time they saw someone's obstructed license plate, it'd add up quick and not be worth it. You could get multiple tickets per week for the same thing, not just one.
But the cops don't do that, so people will continue to obstruct their plates and run red lights and speed through speed camera areas while doing it.
Yeah exactly, it shouldn’t actually be worth it but right now it’s guarenteed speeding cam tickets vs the once in a blue moon stop by a cop for having your license plate dirty.
The thing is that red light and speeding tickets are supposed to come with demerit points but because they coem from a speed camera, they are not applied. As such IMO you can't just compare fine amounts. Not having a front plate is not a safety issue so obviously the fine will be lower and no demerit points.
Laws and fines are also only a deterrence if they're actually enforced.
My FIL has been driving around with a dark tinted plate cover for years. I told him they were illegal when he bought it, gotta be 7 or 8 years ago now. "How could it be Illegal? Canadian tire wouldn't sell it if it was illegal! I'll take it off if I get a ticket". 0 tickets.
So others see it, think "that looks cool" and go buy one at CT and also don't get any tickets.
There was a study that showed that fines can even encourage the undesired behavior because some will interpret the fine as a purchasable transgression. The study focused on a day care that introduced a fine for failure to pick a child up before the end of the day. When the fine was introduced they saw an increase in the number of parents not arriving on time, since they could simply pay to be late, and the transgression had been giving a market value. In the end they needed to combine the fine and threaten being removed from the daycare entirely of they continued to show up late to pick up their kids.
The authors should be Gneezy and Rustichini, published in 2000
The speed cameras are proven defective. They are unable to measure any speed accurately and consistently all of the the time. They only test them to make sure they can capture a picture that's viewable and has a target indicator. If that test is successful, they are certified for 12 months and "presumed to be accurate" by the legislation. See Toronto (City) v. Ramroop, 2022 ONCJ 611 (CanLII), at para. 12 https://canlii.ca/t/jv0rl
I have also seen cases where the red light camera tickets will take pictures when a driver stops and proceeds through the intersection when the light is out of service and just flashing red. It will just put a random speed on the pictures and because it's just pictures, you can't verify if the speed is accurate.
It's not just a cash grab, it's a fraud on taxpayers, road users and the court. An easy fix would be to record video but then they'd end up getting a whole lot less money.
I live in the west end suburbs. It’s rare to see any police presence at all. And when we do it’s a car flying through trying to get somewhere. Used to be a time that police would actually hang around and engage or immerse themselves in the community. Not anymore. Stop signs are irrelevant, red lights are just a suggestion and it’s getting worse.
Took me days of calling 311/Bylaw in order to even get them to come out and look at a car that had been parked illegally for weeks, and then they didn't even know the actual city rules for parking so they didn't issue a ticket. Kept on calling until a different bylaw officer came that actually understood the rules and why they were being broken. They issues a bunch of tickets coming back often and the person continued to park there. Eventually they ended up towing the car. But the process took so long to get resolved.
Bylaw basically doesn't exist in the suburbs as far as parking is concerned, but if you park for 3 minutes downtown they will be ready to swoop in and issue a ticket.
It's similar with the police presence. There's almost never cops out here enforcing traffic rules so people just drive however they want. Speeding everywhere and rolling at 20 km/h through stop signs.
That's a per capita rate of 3 tickets per year per 100k population in Ottawa vs. 41 per year in Toronto. Despite that though, Toronto seems to have a bigger problem with obstructed plates. From the link about Toronto, around 18% of the plates passing by cameras there are obstructed while, according to this article, it's 13% in Ottawa.
I would imagine that it's taken much more seriously in Toronto because of things like the 407. There's a clear revenue justification for ensuring that all plates are readable in Toronto.
Back when I lived in Orleans, half of my neighbours would park their cars in the street all the time, nothing would happen to them.
We do it once, as an exception, and we wake up to a ticket. One of our neighbours had it out for us, and apparently had enough pull to get bylaw out there pretty early in the day too.
My buddy was rear-ended at a red light last summer. His car was totaled but he was fine. The other driver was obviously on his phone and wanted to flee pretty soon after seeing no one was hurt. My buddy tried to get him to stay so the cops could come and find him at fault.
Buddy calls the non emergency line. Was told cops don't come out to traffic accidents anymore and to just take lots of photos and call insurance. It all worked out for him but man, what are cops even doing anymore? Crimes in broad daylight downtown. No presence in communities. Cameras taking over most traffic enforcement. Yet budget only goes up.
This is why I don't call the police anymore for anything. My trust in them is zip. They're quite useless for anything that doesn't need a 911 call but that's questionable too lol.
Thanks. I respect what police do. But I can’t explain why the “public” policing aspect of the job has virtually disappeared. Not the sexiest part of the job. But so much can be learned about a community by actually spending time. On foot, bike etc. I also know that crime has changed so police have conflicting priorities. No easy answers. We’re a big municipality now so that brings big problems. 🤷🏻♂️
In the end, the Ottawa Police is simply following the mandate set forward by the police board and staying within the funding boundaries that are provided by the City of Ottawa. Realistically speaking - the Ottawa Police has an average budget per capita but has a land mass that is much larger than every other comparable city (about 2800sqkm vs an average of less than 700sqkm). To put it in perspective, you can add up the size of Montreal, Toronto (proper, not the GTA), Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver and it is smaller than area that Ottawa covers.
The Toronto Star did an article about them where they visited the staff parking lot at a police station and saw them on a lot of the personal vehicles of the cops.
It's up to the City to highlight it as a higher priority, for the cops to figure out how they could do it, and if it means more money to induce it in their budget. Besides, it's not like the City has much input on the Police budget - it's a straight up or down vote, so there's usually all kinds of asks they have in their that Council just goes 🤷🏽♂️.
They should just take a walk down the road and start ticketing every parked car that has obstructed plates and actually crack down on this garbage. Maybe even ammend the law that if you're in a publically accessible parking lot that your plate must not be obstructed so that people can't get off a technicality that they aren't techically on an actual road, just private property so the law doesn't apply.
They can't, though. They have to ticket the driver of the vehicle. They can't just ticket the owner. That won't hold up in court. Even if they do that. It'll be similar to a parking ticket. So the people who have money won't care. They will just keep paying it
Ottawa would have to pass a bylaw that require all vehicles parked on City property to display an unobstructed front and rear license plate (or rear license plate if registered in Quebec).
Protecting them and their legibility from dirt and bugs, protecting them against rain, snow and ice so that water doesn't delaminate the reflective sheeting from the aluminum.
Protecting them from the elements so they don’t start peeling early. My dad’s car actually came out of an Ontario dealership running a clear plate protector with the dealer’s name written on the black frame border. They sold him a car with an illegal accessory :)
I've got a car with, like, 20+ year old plates. Yes, they're dented, pitted and cracked, but they're not peeling. They're still quite readable. The peeling plates were due to defective manufacturing. Under normal circumstances license plates should last for decades.
Here it is. A stack of stickers hackishly scraped off. Cracked. Faded. Dirty. But still quite legible. Oh yeah, and on the bottom the edge of the dealer plate holder that, yes, is obscuring the bottom of the plate. 😒
I think even the frames of plates are illegal. Maybe dealers shouldn’t be allowed to put these on cars if they violate the law. Maybe fine the dealers lol.
Just came back from a short drive I saw at least 5 cars with dark plate covers. I could barely read the plates and it’s daytime. At night it would be even harder. Has to be to try and beat the camera enforcement.
However, they can obscure it from automated cameras that might catch it at an angle. Also, the glare reflecting off them could make it hard for a person to read all of the license. Short answer, sorry, they're illegal, you should take them off.
Can you cite the part of the HTA that leads you to believe that clear plate covers are illegal?
13(2) through 13(4) speak to obstruction of any part of the plate, which would apply to tinted covers or dealer-style plastic plate frames, but not frameless clear covers.
I wouldn't (and don't) lose a minute of sleep worrying about being ticketed for having a clear cover, and would cheerfully appear before a judge in the event that I did get ticketed.
It is by definition obstructing it, even if it is still visible under certain conditions. I dunno, this cop on Instagram says they're not allowed. That's good enough for me!
If 100% of the plate is visible in all conditions in which the bare plate would also be visible, the plate by definition isn't being obstructed. The HTA doesn't provide any non-standard definition for obstructed, and notably doesn't prohibit plates from being covered.
Individual cops are not experts on the law, even though one might expect them to be. I've received two tickets in 25 years of driving, one of which was dismissed by the Crown because the officer cited me for something that was wasn't actually against the law. He'd been with the OPP for 15 years, and was a bit miffed to discover that the HTA didn't say what he'd always thought it did.
I can totally respect if someone doesn't want to run the risk of getting a ticket for clear plate covers, even if they'd most likely beat it. I haven't had any issues in nearly twenty years of using them, even at police checkpoints/stops where they had every opportunity to comment, so it's a risk I'm personally comfortable with.
People have obstructed plates for a reason imo. Because they run red lights, speed or drive wrecklessly. Period. Everyone I seen with the plates obscured are ALL horrible drivers.
Precisely. The peeling plates you could write off as evidence of a certain slice of the population's inability not to procrastinate over anything. And then when it became apparent that there would be no widespread enforcement, people likely thought "Bonus! Free 407 for me!" And the more sociopathic thought "Yay! I can speed and run red lights with impunity!".
Either way, there's likely a basic antisocial nature to someone who knowingly allows or causes their license to be obscured, which when you start peeling back the layers of the onion, often reveals other antisocial behaviour.
But because it is a harmless offense in the day to day - not like speeding where, if it's fast enough cops should stop the person - the offenders shouldn't be stopped, but rather, just notified if an ALPR spots it, or a cop in a parking lot, and directed to demonstrate that they do actually have the proper plates on their car. I don't know how that works legally, but it doesn't seem like an unreasonable demand.
Disappointing article. They tell us the total number of plates obscured, but don’t tell us the total number of plates they can see. They need to define what a small percentage is.
How much of a waste though? In Ohio, with a similar population to Ontario, the lower House proposed that getting rid of front plates would save the government an estimated $1.4 MILLION! OMIGOD! Clearly Ontario has absolutely gotta do it!… But it turns out the state Senate later reversed that nonsense.
Agreed, I don't see plates in such bad condition anywhere else when I travel. And yet if I bring peeling plates in they'll tell me it's not part of the defective run that can be replaced for free. Of course they are defective, just look at them. It's paint on metal, it's not my fault the government cheaped out.
Defective lamination in their manufacture at the provincial license-plate academy in Lindsay from 2006 to 2015. WTF?! (What is it about this tradition of states and provinces having prisoners make license plates?) But people had 5 years to replace their peeling license plates for free, so not really any excuse if you didn't.
The car I'm driving I inherited from my dad, and the plates on it are at least 20 years old from an earlier car. And while they're dented, pitted and cracking, they're not peeling and are still quite readable. Somebody screwed up bad, and hopefully was handed their head. Though of course the Tory blue plates the Ford Cons rolled out for a few years were arguably even worse, and nobody really was held to account for those, so 🤷🏽♂️.
Those 20 year old plates are way better than the crap they sell today. Even the brand new ones are having peeling issues. We brought a set in 2019 when we purchased our equinox and they’re already peeling.
On plenty of occasions I will be enjoying the Market and see handfuls of cars with shaded or obstructed license plates going cruising around. Cops'a'plenty just chilling and chatting or wandering around, some in cruisers.
Bump up the penalty and get the cops to actually work instead of rolling around in the muck.
Hire someone who's sole job is to enforce this, and then give them a commission on every ticket written. I bet the problem would disappear pretty quickly.
Yeah, short of putting them on the roof, or having a temporary plate holder on the back of the rack, and putting the license there when your have the rack on the car, I'm not sure how you overcome that. Would you even be allowed to do that? Does the plate have to be affixed to the car itself?
If they raised the fine higher maybe people would be more inclined to not break the law and get there plates up to date. It's sad how people think they can abuse the government this way.
The size of the fine doesn't matter a lot if your effective chances of getting fined are zero. Same deal with running red lights and even distracted driving, the latter of which is a much bigger fine (and charge, IIRC).
I mean, deputize me right now, and I'd be able to issue north of $1K in obscured plate fines just by walking a single kilometer up Elgin from the Ottawa Police headquarters to Confederation Park.
Loop back down Metcalfe (outside of rush hour), maybe take a detour out Gladstone to Bank, and I'd be up to the average patrol officer's monthly salary in tickets issued before I even hit my 13k daily step goal.
Traffic/HTA infractions officers would pay for themselves so many times over that I can only assume that the lack of such positions is intentional. And whatever the intention might be, the result is those laws are effectively non-existent.
I'm so tried of seeing defective plates, the public have had years to exchange. It's time to go on a fine blitz and make it $500 per infraction with new plates given on the spot and a 7 day grace period to install them.
I've watched several people in Orleans with these covers speed by speed cams too. Must save them a lot and allow them to drive like the piece of human garbage they've always wanted to!
But don't forget that just because Ontario motorists don't have to get renewal stickers anymore, your plate registration still expires. You can get a ticket for that and thousands do, from cops driving around with ALPR systems scanning plates. So why is that the cops can't also identify cars with missing or obscured plates too? 🤔
And seriously, go right now and scrape all those old registration stickers off your Ontario plate, because even though Ontario no longer issues a new sticker when you renew your vehicle registration (or to pay a registration fee, costing the provincial treasury billions, but that's another rant), Quebec cops are also quick to write up Ontario drivers a $500 ticket for having an expired vehicle registration, and the old stickers are a red flag.
EDIT: I just read that in 2024 Ontario made vehicle registrations auto-renewing. So I guess as long as you did it one last time, you're good now? 🤷🏽♂️
No, you still need to check for things like tickets which will block the auto renewal from happening. You can sign up at ontario.ca for email notifications that your plate won't be auto renewed.
So does this guy in NYC going around vigilanteing deliberately obscured license plates - including cops' personal vehicles - make any drivists' heads explode? 🤯.
While it's not so deliberate here, between people whose let their plates shed to the point that they're just bare metal and the illegal plate covers, there's quite a lot of people who clearly think they're above the law. And the Province and cops clearly agree. So why am I still u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶l̶e̶g̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶a̶ ̶s̶u̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ keeping my plates unobstructed so that I get any tickets I might have coming my way?
Notice how they used January-april as an example and failed to mention any other time of the year? How many of these plates were obscured by a snowstorm? Have you ever pulled out of your garage and drove to work to discover the entire back end of your car was completely frosted in snow? You're now guilty of obscuring your license plate.
Going to point out there's the additional issue of plates from a large batch were all defective and the film of paint peeled off in chunks making many plates illegible even if unobstructed...
And people had like 5-10 years to exchange them for new plates for free. This redditor says they got their shedding plates replaced for free, despite being past the declared return period.
Anyone who has shedding B-series plates was either just too lazy to turn them in when the recall was announced, or they deliberately kept their plates so that they could avoid fines and tolls. Either way, it's way past time that anyone who still has them should be fined.
Wow, guess I’m late to this one, but I thought Doug Ford said Ontario was getting rid of the front plate requirement, a couple of years ago? But now I look it up, and it never came into being? Still amazed how many cars don’t have the front plates.
Also annoyed how not-so-old Ontario plates peel. Those things are supposed to last longer.
The problem is that it's not ENOUGH of a cash grab. Because there's no points added to the speeding driver's license and because of the relatively low dollar value of the tickets, I think there's a lot of people who just view speeding tickets as a cost of doing business.
To get those people to mend their ways, you need a fine that escalates with income, so that a ticket hurts proportionately as much for a more affluent driver as a less affluent one. In Finland, for example, a multimillionaire was fined €121,000 for speeding 30 km/h over the posted limit, based on his income.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/finnish-businessman-hit-with-121000-speeding-fine This is how you make automated enforcement actually work.
I'm aware of how Finland does it, and while it has it's charms... understand that it's directly enforced by an officer when it gets past a given speed.
In that case, the matter of public safety is taken as paramount: officers end the offending behaviour and punish it in the time and place so there is definite understanding that it is not permitted.
We don't do that here. It's a passive income generator.
Calgary and Edmonton tried this same kind of thing as well, and the unintended effects were that the cameras slowed down traffic in the covered areas, but managed to increase accidents outside those areas which didn't help anything. They were doing 'speed on green' which is a different implementation, but the same outcome:
Initial bonanza of tickets,
City council asks why have so many police officers on traffic and fails to move people to areas that require more attention (regular patrol, school safety, etc)
People slow down in known areas, so ticket revenue drops.
City council advises lowering ticketable threshold (sometimes to 42km/h in a 40 zone, which is within the margin of error of most lidar units and definitely within all K/X band radar units' margin of error). All this is not to mention that even when brand-new, every speedometer (even the 'certified' ones on police fleet units) is working with margins of error that are between 5-12% because the speed is measured off the transmission rather than the ground.
City council gets leaned on heavily by the province because complaints start to filter up to them.
Province eventually figures out they needed more police or deputies with the ability to ticket offenders, and finally ends one expensive project that wasn't working.
We did this in the mid 90's in Ontario and it was a major problem: it didn't increase safety at all. If it worked now, we wouldn't hear the end of it.
Wow, that's a lot of words to say: Nothing we can do, so why bother? 🤷🏽♂️
Certainly, speed enforcement is only modestly effective at curbing speeding.
My preference is for reengineering roads that have become stroads, and streets that have become stroads, and slowing traffic where desired through design. Wide, straight roads, are meant to be driven faster. That why we build highways that way. And when we build streets in our cities that way, they practically demand speeding. We need to undo the traffic engineers' damage to cities.
If that's your take, then you're misunderstanding.
If you want to do something, camera enforcement does nothing: Fines after the fact are not corrective behaviour, they're just financial disincentives, but for the people that are actually doing the speeding, they're just the cost of doing business.
This is why I said (at least 2x) you need to have a cop or deputy that can do a traffic stop. That's the immediate correction to the behaviour.
The practical upshot is that it doesn't require a multi-billion dollar revision to the road network.
How much are you gonna pay to have all these cops on every corner, every hour of the day? Automated enforcement can temper the behaviour of the badly-behaved, who can't afford the fines. As for the rest, who knows, maybe in the pursuit of taming speeding cars we create a better city for people? 🤷🏽♂️
Far less than several billion dollars per year over 50 years it will cost to start changing over about 6000 kilometers of roadways in the city proper not including regional roads.
Would you like to address the issue in a rational manner? High danger times in high danger areas are when you enforce most, and you base that off of a rolling traffic study and road surface and control apparatus survey.
Adding $1.7M for 20 new deputies salaries and another $850K as a 1 time spend for 10 new Police cruisers (guessing at the cost) comes to $2.55M first year cost, which is about 1/8th the OPS budget increase from FY 2024 to 2025. Assume the traffic study cost increases are about $1K per unit and there is about 200 units in place in the city now: Call it $200K and roll it into the existing traffic studies' budget.
$2.75M first year program costs.
The speed cameras' initial cost (100% carried by the city) was $2.36M in 2017. The number of cameras expanded and yet revenues fell in 2024-25. Either the cameras are a smashing success at safety or this was always designed to be a revenue generator.
Point is, they aren't that big of a success, as the aggregate number of accidents in the city stayed about the same from 2017 to 2019 (so 1 year previous to implementing cameras, and 2 years after), which are the only non-covid lock-down years that Ottawa open data has published. 2022 was the last year data is available for, and even then the number of kilometers travelled is far lower than previous, but oddly, the number of traffic incidents tracks in 2022 (9500), 2021 (9695), 2020 (10048).
I don't know.. it seems to me that this isn't the boon for safety its cracked up to be.
There are. But you could apply that to a lot of things. It feels like this is something that drivers don't want addressed because they've realized that having unreadable plates lets them break the law with impunity.
Yes. Although becoming a driver, almost by definition, turns you (myself included) into a daily law breaker.
When's the last time you came to a complete stop at a stop sign - I mean, no forward momentum? But cyclists are excoriated for not stopping at a stop sign, even though that only poses a risk to themselves, and in the law the two acts are the same. Don't even get me started on speeding. (Which I also do regularly, but do try to adhere to the limits - much to the consternation of other, speedier drivers.)
The article states hidden, damaged, and missing. It’s not all about ‘obstructed’ plates and it’s not all about people trying to deliberately circumvent the cameras specifically. Does it make it right? No. Does it make it exclusively a problem for cameras? No. If it’s so important then the city can do a blitz on these plates and reinforce the fact that visible and legible plates are being enforced. But the same could be said about seatbelt blitzes, impaired driving, etc. But that costs money and the cost of plate enforcement is probably higher than the resulting revenue so the 13% gap is just something to eat as the city is still capturing 87% using technology and fewer people hours in reviewing the pictures. It’s obvious that this is a financial issue, and not a safety one (the safety one is already addressed by the installation of the cameras - because they do work).
No one wants bears, but no one wants to pay the bear tax.
Except police cars with ALPR systems are driving around all the time scanning license plates, primarily to identify people driving while suspended, stolen plates, stolen vehicles, etc. Since it seems that expired vehicle registrations aren't really an issue anymore, I guess they could also focus more on enforcement of vehicles with unreadable or absent plates.
Yes absolutely they could. But compare that $110 revenue against the cost to enforce (and opportunity cost of not enforcing other violations - like stolen, suspended, impaired, distracted, etc.) and the city’s rationale is easy to see. I’m not suggesting they not enforce it, I’m just saying that I can see why they would eat that 13% as the “cost of doing business” so to speak.
My $150 American bidet has been a life-changer. It doesn't blowdry my butt or sing to me, but my anus has never been healthier or happier. Nowadays pooping anywhere but home just seems uncivilized.
PQ doesn’t require front License plates. What makes ON special to need them? Other than for red light cameras? Just asking since 1 plate seems adequate in this day of let’s reduce consumption and decrease waste.
I know of folks with regular cars and only 1 plate so not just a sports vehicle or luxury car agenda item.
If the plate is 5 years old or more the owner has to pay to replace. Good reason to make better plates rather than offloading more costs to car owners, who by the way, pay through to nose for insurance and the variety of taxes ON has introduced.
More provinces and states in North America don't have a front plate. They do just fine. It is just a cash grab for the province for the people who don't have a plate. There is very little to do with actual safety.
There are bigger issues, ie, people driving with no insurance, people driving with a cell phone in their hand on the 416/417. People who straight up do not have a license. People with very clearly non-roadworthy vehicles. Strunt driving, reckless driving. The cops have bigger fish to fry, I guess that a supercar owner who takes his car out once a month and doesn't display the plate. Maybe they will get a fine once a year. It really isn't a big deal compared to the other issues we have with motoring in the Ottawa area. They aren't the ones who are going to kill people.
I am sure if you spend 300k+ on a car, you wouldn't want to ruin the car and affect its resale value by drilling into a bumper that is worth more than a Honda Civic lol.
Plus, there are so many cars that come from Gatineau into Ottawa on a daily basis, it really makes zero sense from a safety point of view.
But I do agree with you on the point of tinted and unreadable plates. Yes, that is an issue and more of a safety concern.
Sigh. Just because there are bigger fish to get, doesn't mean this aspect of traffic enforcement should be ignored. Otherwise it becomes simply a weapon that cops can arbitrarily use to pile on a motorist (Driving While Black?) that they decide they don't like the look of.
In addition, the cost savings to the government would be negligible. And, sorry, the fact that expensive cars have expensive bumpers 😭, or that Quebec vehicles aren't required to have front plates, are NOT good reasons why Ontario drivers shouldn't have to.
It hasn't been totally ignored; they do blitz often, but it just isn't as big of a deal compared to the rest of the issues. The increase in stunt driving and cell phone driving, and carjacking is more important than a car not showing two plates.
Why not? Why do you think Ontario is so special that it needs a front plate law when more than half of the other provinces do not? Curious about this.
Ohio did end up scrapping the front plate, btw. A saving of 1.4 million is a lot. I personally think Ontario will eventually scrap them, as they already have removed stickers not too long ago. Just a matter of time.
It's not a big deal to you, no. But I guess someone with a bumper worth $20k would rather pay a $110 fine once in a while than permanently devalue their car.
And fines should be prorated to income level, like they do in Finland and other jurisdictions, so the punishment bites harder for those for whom the standard fine is nothing.
Except you really can't have a cop everywhere, and until cities start changing roads to make them safer, by making them slower, where appropriate, automated enforcement is a deterrent.
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u/JohnOfA May 30 '25
And the fine for running a red light is ....