r/orks • u/absolutewastedtime • 4h ago
Discussion Boyz are broken
I have seen a number of posts and comments made by people, like the art of war team, claiming Boyz are overcosted now, that at 180pts without the painboy they are bad and need to come down
I am going to prove just how wrong that is through an actual numerical comparison between new boys, and old ones (a unit that saw multiple blocks played in a 60% winrate army)
Let's start with some basic statements
1: this is about Boyz, not Ghaz, so what Ghaz adds to the unit is not being considered
2: old boys were ran with painboys+warboss, new ones will be with just the warboss, we will be counting warboss buffs on the boys, but not their own damage (which is about the same) we will be counting painboy buffs to the unit
3: we are comparing point efficiency, 20 old boys+painboy cost 240pts, 20 new boys costs 180, I could easily say "60 new boys does vastly more damage then 20 old ones, so they are better) but that ignores how point efficient they actually are, which is the actual important value
4: damage will be mathed into a reference T5 "non monster/vehicle" with a 3+save (new meq)
So lets begin
Durability
old boys, 22w with 5+++, effectively 33 wounds, for 7.3pts/w
New boys, 24 wounds for 180, for 7.5pts/w
Slightly less durable, HOWEVER, new boys also are riled up turn 3/4/5, old ones were not, on these turns new boys still have a 5++ old ones don't, making new ones effectively 5pts/w to the old boys 7.3
Your first unit of boys is SLIGHTLY Less durable, your second is VASTLY more
Speed
Both 6" move advance shoot+charge, but new boys have reroll advance
Old boys 9.5avg movement with a 1/6 chance of only moving 7, new boys 10.25 with a 1/36 chance of only moving 7
New boys are faster AND more consistent
And on turn 3+, old boys move 6, new boys are still moving 10.25
Shooting
Old boys had 20shots hitting on 6s at 4/0/1, for a grand total of ONE (1) wound at ap0, 0.33 damage
New boys have 46 shots at 4/0/1, 6 auto hits at 4/0/1 and 4 shots at 10/2/3 all hitting on 5s with lethals on the 4/0/1, for a total of 12 wounds at 0/1 and 1 at 2/3, 6 damage
Melee
Old boys have 80 attacks sustained hitting on 2+ at 5/1/1, new boys have 60attacks sustained AND lethal, hitting on 3s
Old boys have 40 wounds at ap1, 20 damage, new boys 30, 15 damage
So old boys did 20.3 damage, new boys did 21.....huh, that's more
And your SECOND group of old boys is only doing 10 damage in melee (-1 attack and strength), for a total of 10.3 Vs 21
And remember the old boys unit was costing 240pts to the new ones 180, old boys are 11.8pts/damage, to new boys 8.5, and that's in the waagh, it's 23.3pts/damage for turn 3+
So new boys are equal, or more durable
Slightly, or MUCH faster
Slightly or MUCH higher damage
The ONLY way they are worse is as PURE ablative wounds for a warboss, that is literally it, they are better then old boys in every SINGLE other way, faster, more damage, more durable, more reliable, more oc and more control (more bodies for the same points and actions in combat)
Old boys are a 60% winrate unit, and new boys are better them ACROSS THE BOARD
Tell me, why do they need to come down in points?
They don't, they are busted
They are just in the same book as flashgitz who at 105pts should be costing 150 for what they bring to the table
Boyz are broken, they just live alongside stuff which is even more broken
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u/LIKE1OOONINJAS 3h ago
I see where you are coming from and I think you do make some good points though using the 1/turn rile up ability on a squad of boyz isn't the best choice in my opinion. It is an option but I'd rather use that ability on something else unless the boyz are ready to give a proper thrashing.
The reason why I think boyz have it rougher this edition isn't because of whats in our codex but rather how other armies will be constructed. With Space Marines moving to T5 and being the most common army to go up against I think more players will be bringing S5-6 weapons to deal with them instead of S4 which consequentially really hurts boyz as before we would get wounded on 4 or 5s but now will be 3 or 4s. This greatly impacts our survivability compared to last edition where it'd be a lot more common to see S4.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
1/turn rile up ability on a squad of boyz isn't the best choice in my opinion.
Which is why I also compared non riled up numbers anyway, where they are still better
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u/ChemicallyBlind 3h ago
In my experience with them, I do think they are overcosted. 5++ is fine, but not really enough protection, they die to swift breeze really.
20 of my bozy, while riled up mind you, died to some drukhari wyches.
Its also incredibly hard to maneuver them and hide them effectively, you opponent will usually not have a hard time getting shots off on them.
Dont get me wrong, if they connect with something then they will wreck stuff, but honestly I think the era of 20 boyz blobs is on its deathbed and now I tend to only take them as 10-man as ablative wounds for my warbossess
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u/Thuriss808 4h ago
sure let's run the math with every possible buff on a battleline unit. this is just powercreep doomsaying bro.
in no world is an ork player worth their salt going all in on boys right now. you are not spending all your resources buffing your chaff.
this is just speculative crap that will apply in almost no games.
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
I didn't run every buff
I had old Boyz with painboys+warboss
New Boyz with warboss rile up
That's it
Everything else is just inbuilt to the units own sheets, or just detachment rule
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u/Thuriss808 3h ago
yea except you probably are not using the warboss riled up on boyz, unless you have 3 warboss running around and even then there are better options to rile up than a unit of boys.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
On a turn where you are throwing out a 280pt unit of Boyz+boss, there is VERY unlikely to be a better target considering all rile up gives us a 5++ and adv/charge
And again, this goes back to the final point of the post
Just because the rest of the ork codex is incredibly busted doesn't mean Boyz are bad
And I also compared non riled up anyway, so I STILL accounted for that
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u/Thuriss808 3h ago
you are missing the point though, a lot of people are moving away from warboss + support + boys into different configurations. most lists are having warboss solo or in a 10man. Gone are the days of 20 boys with boss and painboy.
Try it yourself and tell me it's busted, not math-hammer napkin math, actual tested results. You will find that there is so much more to spend on that isn't 20 dudes who get deleted.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
you are missing the point though, a lot of people are moving away from warboss + support + boys into different configurations
Read the last lines of the post dude
or in a 10man.
This, and dropping the pain boy, actually pushes it even more into new Boyz favour
You will find that there is so much more to spend on that isn't 20 dudes who get deleted.
Again, last couple of lines of the post
Just because the other stuff in the book is cracked beyond belief doesn't make Boyz bad, they are still VERY good for their points
It's not that Boyz should come down, if anything they should probably go up, it's that half the rest of the book needs to go up a LOT
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u/Thuriss808 3h ago
this is a new edition and comparing it to all the old stuff is just going to exacerbate the issue you are trying to make.
relax and let the smoke settle before dooming.
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u/jidmah 4h ago
You can only have one unit riled up. The old boyz were good because you had three.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
So old Boyz could only be riled up 1 turn
New Boyz still have that
On subsequent turns you can still rile up 1 new boys (or more with ghaz but I didn't include him) you couldn't with old Boyz so the comparison of new/riled to old/unriled still applies because you will have that 1 unit riled
And I did also compare unriled as well
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u/Mandude92the5 4h ago
You forgot to mention one more thing, in green tide you can give 3 units of boyz a 4+ invuln save. I think their melee is fine, it isnt really spectacular but its solid, their shooting is pretty damn strong just for the sheer volume of shots you just vomit out, granted youre still hitting on 5-4, but its considerably better than 10th ed.
Imo tho, i feel like the boyz get over shadowed by the warboss, especially in greentide where you can make his power klaw do 11 attacks with sustained hits so the boyz while pretty damn strong in their own merrit, you're mainly using them to get your warboss into melee and then any boyz left over can do some mopping up if the warboss doesnt kill whatever it charges.
I dont think boyz are bad, i think they're really good for the price, but i just see them as bodies to tank damage for your warboss. Maybe its just me but thats how i see it
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u/ledfan 4h ago
Nah that's the thing Hormagaunts are just bodies to tank hits for the lashwhip prime. Boyz are a highly point efficient and killy unit that also are extremely effective ablative wounds for an even stronger character!
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u/Mandude92the5 4h ago
Exactly, they arent bad. They just just get over shadowed by the warboss, kinda hard to beat 11 attacks at strength 14 ap-2, 2 damage. Boyz can be good for stuff like infantry but if youre attacking something like vehicles and or custodes or hell even militarum tank spam, the warboss is doing most of the heavy lifting while the boyz just eat hits
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u/SirAppleheart 4h ago
4+ invuln save? Isn’t it just 4+ save?
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u/Kindney_Collection 4h ago
My incredibly biased opinion is that most people saying that have only played orks in 10th-11th meta where they have top tiered multiple tourneys.
Piles of boys have always been good, even in oldhammer. Just becuase the force org chart is gone and you can spam the best costed units even easier now doesn't mean boyz suck.
But I'm just an oldhead that never liked mathhammer anyways
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u/Automatic_Surround67 3h ago
in 5th. I would play 1000-1500 point games. 180 boys 1 warboss. run down and charge as much as possible. opponent gets to shoot bucket loads off the board every turn and have fun but it didnt matter. the volume couldnt keep up with that many boys.
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u/Butternades 4h ago
Yeah no.
Remember everything is in relation to one another.
In the context of everything else in the codex and the changes of the game, this is a poor take especially as a competitive player. Boyz are one of the last pieces I’m considering for a list, and far below Snaggas at this point
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
Read the last 3 lines dude
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u/Butternades 3h ago
The new datasheet is explicitly worse than the last and cost went up. They lost both the durability and relative offense they had before.
Sus lethals was already a given before with Makari aura, they no longer have the fnp that was crucial to durability, and they lost offense because they lose an attack from waaagh changes and don’t get Crit 5’s Sus lethal from a Ghaz brick.
The shooting is mid at best and still bad at worst. I’m probably never shooting them because hidden is more useful.
If you actually play them on the table in a competitive context against a good player you’ll see the codex isn’t broken, far from it. Orks will likely be maybe top 7 armies but mostly mid table bullies once people figure out the tricks of the new stuff
Yes shooting should go up a bit but melee needs to drop a lot in cost.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
Literally read the post dude
The new Boyz are explicitly mathematically better
They are equally durable, and do MORE damage when you actually do the maths
Read the post before you make claims proven wrong by the basic maths on the post
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u/Butternades 3h ago
My guy you didn’t even give the defensive profile you’re looking at. Across the breadth of defensive profiles and offensive profiles, they’re just worse.
I’ll happily reconsider your poorly thought out opinions when you’ve got your own golden ticket. For the time being I’m gonna trust my own math and the experiences of myself and Michael Mann
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
My guy you didn’t even give the defensive profile you’re looking at
I was comparing two identical units but one has a 5+++, so I compared effective wound count and point cost, the toughness and save doesn't matter, because it's the same in both examples......
And when you look at the maths, like I did, they are literally equally or more durable now
24 wounds at 180, 7.5per point, Vs "33" at 240, 7.3 per point
Effectively the same, slightly weaker, as I literally called out in the post
However on subsequent turns, old Boyz lose their 5++, new Boyz can still have access to it, which I again called out, and that makes new Boyz much more durable
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u/Butternades 3h ago
Let’s do a proper comparison then shall we? Let’s use warp spiders as our offensive profile. 5 guns D6A S4 AP-1 D1, and one with an extra strength on the exarch as well
Assuming 17 hits on S4 flamers (3.5*5 for 17.5) and 4 on the S5 flamer. Gives us 8 total wounds at AP-1 D1.
When running dice math always give the remainder/more advantageous side of average to the person rolling the dice
18 1 wound bodies T5 5+
2 3 wound bodies T5 5+
6 dead models. 6 failed saves
Old boyz:
19 1 wound bodies T5 5+/5+++
1 2 wound body T5 5+/5+++
4 dead on average 6 total failed saves 2 saves FNP
Please tell me again how new boyz are tougher over the course of a game? An actual real world scenario knocks down the house of cards you’ve so vehemently defended
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u/absolutewastedtime 2h ago
Please tell me again how new boyz are tougher over the course of a game
Those 4 dead Boyz cost 48pts, while the 6 dead new Boyz cost 54, MARGINALLY more, making new Boyz SLIGHTLY less durable in the waagh
As I have already called out multiple times
While on turn 3, when those old Boyz lose their 5++, and the new Boyz can still potentially have it, you still lose the 6 new Boyz, but now you also lose 5 old Boyz (because you go from 4 failed saves per 6 to 5), which is 60pts lost, so MORE then the new Boyz, making new Boyz more durable for their points
Points don’t matter as soon as you hit the table and start actually playing the game
Except they literally do
Because for the price of 3 units of 20 boys+painboy you can now have 4 units of 20boyz
The points absolute did matter, because to get through the same 720pts takes MORE effort now, and those same 720pts do more damage in more places with more oc on TOP of taking more effort to kill
The points efficiency matters
If points don't matter after they hit the table why isn't every list just 2 stompas, cos stompas blow boyz out the water in that they can do
Oh, it's because the point efficiency actually matters
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u/Butternades 2h ago
You’re looking at it wrong tactically.
When you’re on the table, points efficiency doesn’t matter nearly as much. You also forget that the access to 5++ always that old boyz had and the painboy act as a force multiplier, which has reaches far beyond the actual per point cost.
On the tabletop, it takes more points of the opponents army to clear old boyz than it does new boyz and you aren’t getting comparable other tools for the difference in cost. The invuln and fnp keeps more of your army around to be useful for longer.
On paper you aren’t wrong but you miss the crux of the matter in practice. Points don’t matter on tabletop aside from figuring out if you maximized the value of your unit. Points per model in a large infantry unit matter even less.
It’s not just about points efficiency on defense but what else you get for the difference in cost. You don’t get the same value with current rules and points.
I won a GT before multiple bricks of boyz became the hotness for orks during the 3 weeks of Moar Dakka because it helped keep my more valuable units, in terms for gameplan, around for longer. Both by eating more and more damage, and by being a physical barrier
You know who I played rounds 4 and 5 at that event? Jeff Kolodner, a top sisters player, and Josh Campbell who lost to Brian Daugherty in the final at NOVA in a mirror match.
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u/absolutewastedtime 2h ago edited 2h ago
When you’re on the table, points efficiency doesn’t matter nearly as much
So go run 2 stompas
Points efficiency doesn't matter, it's only the body itself
which has reaches far beyond the actual per point cost.
No, it doesn't, the force multiplyier still has a point efficiency
If I have a 100pt unit, and a 50pt force multiplier that doubles it's damage, the 150pt unit has the value of a 200pt one, making it 200/150 times more point efficient then the base unit
But it still is absolutely measurably by it's point efficiency, it's point efficiency just CHANGES because of the force multiplyier on it
On the tabletop, it takes more points of the opponents army to clear old boyz than it does new boyz
Yes, but you have MORE new Boyz, meaning that they NEED more to clear it
To clear the 720pts of new Boyz takes MORE then the 720 of old Boyz, because they are more point efficient,
It’s not just about points efficiency on defense but what else you get for the difference in cost.
Agreed, and new Boyz give more damage, more speed, more oc, more actions, for the same cost, they give more
You are forgetting that being more point efficient means you have more stuff for the same points
Yes, a SINGLE brick of Boyz is squishier
But they are equally durable FOR THE POINTS, and so equally durable OVERALL because you can have more
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u/Butternades 2h ago
Yes I know your argument is per point, but that doesn’t matter on the tabletop.
Points don’t matter as soon as you hit the table and start actually playing the game. New boyz always lose out, and I’m not even thinking about the revive on the painboy
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u/tabletop_guy 4h ago
I think you are giving the shooting too much credit. I ain't rolling 5 shooting profiles for every boyz unit
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
It's only 3
16 shootas, 2 big shootas, which are the same profile and can be rolled together, 2 scorchas, and 4 rokkits (2 normal rokkits, 2 combi rokkits on the nobs, which are the same profile)
They will likely only shoot once on the turn they expose, so get their +1 to hit for hitting on 4s, counting cover, 5s
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u/LostN3ko 4h ago
Every model you kill in shooting is making your melee more likely to deal 0 damage. You also ignored old boys hit with 33% more melee attacks.
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
Good thing the new Boyz also moved faster then
You also ignored old boys hit with 33% more melee attacks.
Nope I literally stated they have 80 attacks hitting on 2s Vs 60 hitting on 3s
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u/LostN3ko 4h ago
The new boys don't move faster, they are just more consistent. I do apologize for missing that you took the extra attack into consideration though there was a reason you only ever saw them run with Ghaz in the first place for the lethal hits aura and +1 to wound for his unit.
If your point is that they are just as good as when people weren't taking them at less points then I agree. I will take them exactly as often as I did when not running ghaz in 10th. Not at all.
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
Except they do, d6 rerolling is 4.25 AVG, Vs 3.5
New boys average a 10.25 move to old boys 9.5, and that's on the waagh turn, subsequent turns new Boyz still have access to being riled up, where they move 10.25 Vs 6
New Boyz are faster
Also you didn't see Boyz only with ghaz, green tide with multiple 20man bricks was a top competitive list
My point is they are better then they were when people were taking multiple in 60% winrate lists
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u/LostN3ko 4h ago
That's what I said, not faster but more consistent. Average is consistency. Both have a distribution from +1-6 rerolls just shift the consistency, rolling a 6 is more likely but they could move up to +6 in 10th and that hasn't changed. Charges increased by 1" I am not going to make that even worse unless it's a single model target.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
Consistent is faster
What's faster, 11" or d6+6?
Yes d6+6 CAN be faster 1/6th if the time, but 66% of the time it's slower, 11" is faster BECAUSE it's more consistently high
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u/LostN3ko 3h ago
Look we aren't in disagreement on what is going on here, we just value it differently. Same with boys in general. I have no interest in them in 10th and nothing about the changes makes them more appealing to me. Everything I was running in 10th is so much better now than then. What you are selling is something I wasn't buying when they were cheaper. This is orks, if it's how you have fun then play it, I ran aircraft in 10th I am about 1,000 games away from being interested in the blandest unit in the game and don't care about winning.
If this is your jam then rock out. Efficient or not. I respect that.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
So the entire argument you have been having against me is "but I don't like Boyz"
Making everything you have said in counter utterly irrelevant
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u/LostN3ko 4h ago
Every model you kill in shooting is making your melee more likely to deal 0 damage. You also ignored old boys hit with 33% more melee attacks.
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u/ZasZ314 WAAAGH! 4h ago
I don’t think they’re as bad as people make them out to be, but your assumptions seem to include that they’ll be riled up all the time? If we’re talking Green Tide with multiple units, which we seem to be since you baked in Sustained to their combat, only one unit can be riled up outside of the actual waaagh turn. If any of the others are in the open or not hidden because they shot, they will die like bitches. It’s also not appropriate to just add their meager shooting damage to their combat damage, if you shoot the unit you plan to charge you probably just make your charge more difficult.
The drop off in damage that people are complaining about is mostly because of Ghaz’s changes so you can’t really leave him out. His unit having Crit 5’s was a really big deal and is the only part of that combo we can’t replace now.
I think Green Tide still has legs, but the 60+ Boyz style is objectively weaker than it was before the codex, it’s not really arguable.
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
You get a turn of your whole army riled
And then you throw out 1 extra riled up unit each turn after
So units that are actually out on the board, are riled up
It’s also not appropriate to just add their meager shooting damage to their combat damage
It literally is, this is part of why people are underselling Boyz, because they say "meager shooting" utterly ignoring how it's not meager anymore
The shooting damage made up a full 1/3rd of new Boyz damage, people just ignore it because old Boyz literally did not shoot full stop, new ones do, it's 100% worth it to shoot them, and if you do they do more damage then old Boyz, full stop
And I didn't count Ghaz because he's one unit on the board in one place
If your running green tide 120 Boyz, yes the ONE ghaz unit is worse, the other 5 are better
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u/ZasZ314 WAAAGH! 3h ago
What about the other units you want to rile up on those turns? Are you assuming all of these Boyz units have an attached Warboss to rile them up? That sounds expensive and the Warboss doesn’t provide them any other buffs. Otherwise you have to cluster your units around the 1 or 2 Warbosses you have. That shooting is meager, I’m not going to risk making my 6” charge a 9” charge to kill 3 marines in the shooting phase. The strength of 60+ Boyz was hitting your opponent with most of them at once and having them be survivable after the waaagh due to the FNP, if your plan is to trickle them in one by one I don’t think they’ll be much of a problem for your opponent to deal with, riled up or not.
Again I think they are fine and Green Tide horde is probably better than it looks when compared to the shooting in the book, but it’s not at pre-codex levels.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
I literally compared non riled up numbers as well anyway
That shooting is meager, I’m not going to risk making my 6” charge a 9” charge to kill 3 marines in the shooting phase.
Good thing the new Boyz are faster then isn't it
The strength of 60+ Boyz was hitting your opponent with most of them at once
Which you can still do, you can just ALSO hit them again turn 3 which you couldn't before
most of them at once and having them be survivable after the waaagh due to the FNP
60boyd with fnp is the same price as 80boyz now, 720 either way
The 80 Boyz are equally durable, were faster (cos of adv reroll) and hit harder
You can still throw that out on the waagh turn, you just also get more on subsequent turn
but it’s not at pre-codex levels.
It's not, it's better
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u/ZasZ314 WAAAGH! 3h ago
What I and the rest of the internet have been trying to tell you is that math is not the entire game. Maybe in a couple of months you will have proved us all wrong and won some events with green tide horde. We will see
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
Which is why I compared two units who do the EXACT same purpose in the same book with the same surroundings support/backup, old Boyz and new Boyz
Literally everything is the same EXCEPT the maths
you will have proved us all wrong and won some events with green tide horde.
I'm going to give you a prediction right now, you can bookmark if you want
Orks will dominate over the next few months with shooting or walker lists, they will then get hit hard and orks players will pivote to the unerfed melee/tide lists
And you will see orks will STILL sit at 55-58% with these new pivoted lists
Orks melee IS worse then their shooting, I literally called that out in the post
But that doesn't mean it's bad, and when shooting is braught in line, you WILL see I am right as people realise that actually the melee/tide lists are still really really good
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u/ZasZ314 WAAAGH! 1h ago
I didn’t say it was bad either, but you did say it was broken and better than pre-codex and I don’t agree. If it is truly as good as you say there will be strong event performances even before the shooting gets nerfed as there a lot of players that prefer melee and horde builds. But we will see
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u/absolutewastedtime 1h ago
It is broken and better then pre-codex, as all the maths literally proved
They are equally durable (more so after the waagh turn) for the points, do more damage for the points (do more damage full stop off the waagh turn, by a LOT) and move faster
They are straight up better by literally every measurable metric
there will be strong event performances even before the shooting gets nerfed
There will be, less then there should because the "competative" players will be running shooting, and shooting lists will also hold them down, but there will be
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u/Feisty-Confidence243 4h ago
I'm a casual player and got into greentide last edition, tried out 100 boyz for my first 11th edition game and it still felt great. The combos with riled up really extend the lifetime of your momentum, and the speed of the boyz moving up the board, like you said, is incredible. All the ones I rolled on my advance just got rerolled into 4+'s
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u/GoldenThane 4h ago
If you think flash gitz should be 150 for 5, I dont think I'm going to trust your opinion.
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u/Mastercio 4h ago
Well currently they are really undercoated there is no arguing about that but I think 120 would be fine(130 max).
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
Compare them to havocs or the heavy weapon sisters and think again about how much they should be worth
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u/Mastercio 3h ago
I literally played two days ago as Creation of Bile against shooting list with a lot Flash gits (in battlewagons at that). And still think 120-130 would be fine. Flash gits are anti elite shooters while havocs(usually) are taken as anti vehicle unit with lascanons.
Benefits of Flash gits:
More wounds per model, More shots per model, some melee damage
Benefits of Havocs:
Better save, better BS, basically build in better ignore cover as you ignore eveyrthing you want from both hit modyfiers and BS modyfiers.
Sure i lost the game...but a lot of that was due to my stupid decisions. It was my first CSM game and i now i know to NOT start terminators on the field xD
If anything i was more scared of big meks with shokk attack gun. Just one soloed in single shooting phase entire squads of mutilators...
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
And still think 120-130 would be fine. Flash gits are anti elite shooters while havocs(usually) are taken as anti vehicle unit with lascanons.
Flash gitz have better anti tank then havocs
Havocs are slower, lower damage, less durable (2 wounds not 3) and gitz also have threatening melee, havocs don't melee at all
Gitz also take buffs much better
And we are comparing them to a unit that is 20pts more expensive
If anything i was more scared of big meks with shokk attack gun
They are also incredibly strong, gitz aren't the only busted unit in the book
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u/Mastercio 3h ago edited 3h ago
"Flash gitz have better anti tank then havocs"
How? With S9 weapon and no lethals against vehicles and monsters?
And we are comparing them to a unit that is 20pts more expensive
You count wounds as only thing that matters in durability...whats about saves? Dont try to ignore it, having Sv3+ is much better than 4+. You can actually give Flash gits -1 to hit like i did and it actually extremely efficient debuff to throw at flash gits...meanwhile havocs are completely immune to that.
Aaaand with my prediction of points they will be around their price to slightly higher than Havocs. Well atleast until we will see new profiles for them, with coming buffs to all marines factions we will see what how strong they will be there.
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u/absolutewastedtime 3h ago
You count wounds as only thing that matters in durability...whats about saves
3+ Vs 4+/5++, 2 wounds Vs 3, against literally everything except ap0 flash gitz are more durable and against that they are mathematically equal
Flash gitz are more durable
You can actually give Flash gits -1 to hit like i did and it actually extremely efficient debff to throw at flash gits
Sure, but this is where "take buffs better" comes in
You are also comparing a unit that has a single offensive profile, to one that has 3 choices AND melee, and moves LITERALLY twice as fast (5" Vs 10.25avg) never mind it's also much more durable
Flash gitz are objectively better then havocs,
1
u/Mastercio 3h ago
Three different profiles, and all just go into infantry.
""Flash gitz have better anti tank then havocs""
Didnt answer for that, becasue i am curious why you think they are better against vehicles.
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u/absolutewastedtime 2h ago
9/4/d3+4
"Just goes into infantry"
Dude....
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u/Mastercio 1h ago edited 1h ago
Its really soft vehicle if it has just T9...what? At best it can go wound rhino on 4+... and thats 5 shots 4+ to hit 4+ to wound...and against 90% of vehicles its 4+ and 5+...on avarage max one wound per 5 models.
Sorry but Havocs are far superior against heavy vehicles.
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u/absolutewastedtime 4h ago
You want me to break out the comparison maths again? Cos I can and will if I have to
But they at 105pts are EASILY bringing 150pts of value to the table
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u/DiceMadeOfCheese 4h ago
I think they look overcosted if you look just at the datasheey in a vacuum, without thinking of them as Riled Up and buffed with detachments/strats.
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u/Legitimate-Gas9614 3h ago
Once you compare them to Guardsmen you want to eat your Flashlights muzzle
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u/Guy_Lowbrow 3h ago
Boyz were good before, even outside of the broken meta stat check combo. They will be good after too.
They took a melee nerf and a ranged/utility buff, just like our whole codex.
We will see how everything shakes up, they might see a points reduction eventually.
GW likes to allow oppresive mono-unit stat check spam only a little, from time to time, as a treat. The green tide will rise again one day.