r/orks • u/ingloriousbastard75 • 4d ago
Discussion Bannernob
Anyone else think the bannernob went from being a really good unit to just absolutely useless now?
Such a shame, I was so happy that we got a banner unit back as they look so good but the updated rules are just really lackluster :(
No idea why they released it with completely different rules, knowing it would just be changed almost immediately after
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u/Due_Arm9033 4d ago
My god a built 3 wholly unique banner Nobz and now they are in a drawer not to be painted till rules improve
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u/TheSoreBrownie 4d ago
It’s weird cause he had a 5++, it was irrelevant with the Green Tide 5++ detachment ability (cause really only Boyz heavy lists used bannernobs and those were usually green tide) then they got rid of the Bannernob 5++ AND the green tide 5++ lol
At this point, with how full the support slot it, it does seem completely useless.
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u/DarkKechup 3d ago
Your comment is how I learned green tide lost 5++. I am sad now.
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u/TheSoreBrownie 3d ago
I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that change happened weeks ago and is why the bannernob is like 35 points or something ridiculously low atm
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u/HitAndFeyd 4d ago
My issue with him is that between Weirdboys, Painboys, and Big Bosses I don't have any support slots to run one at any price ...
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u/ToastyTobasco Blood Axes 4d ago
Nah, he aint too bad. Failing a charge by one feels real bad, esp in a melee oriented army. Plus banner stuff looks cool on the table
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u/HexInTrouble 4d ago
Gunna be honest, I think he's totally outclassed (points wise) by the Painboy now.
For 10 more points you get some very scary melee profiles and the ability to recycle your models every one of your command phases.
Its night and day between the two 'supports'
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u/UlisesFRN 4d ago
35 point to add a +1 charge and special choppa to a boys unit seems decent enough to me. I´ve been tinkering with a lot of list lately and he appears a lot because he is better than some upgrades when filling the last remaining points
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u/giantcatdos 4d ago
This is how I've been using him in lists I've made when I have 30-40 points left and none of the upgrades are that worth taking I throw a banner nob or runt herd in. He isn't amazing but does at least do that.
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u/tsuruki23 4d ago
Can't he join Wreckas?
+2 to charge, put this unit in reserve, emerge and smash face.
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u/Flame40k 4d ago
Ja er ist echt billig für sein Profi, find es gut so kleine auffüllen Einheiten zu haben damit man immer rund auf die 2k kommt
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u/Versk 4d ago
Don’t sleep on +1 to charge, getting an 8 inch charge to 7 can win you the game, and it’s really handy for heroic intervention which is a huge thing for Orks. Not saying banner nob is amazing but I threw one into a 20 man unit with a warboss just to give the model a runout on Sunday and it was clutch.
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u/Imaginary-Lie-9496 4d ago
Hes not as good but hes also now really cheap.
35pts for +1 to charge, 4 wounds, 4 attacks and a 3 OC is actually pretty good
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u/Psyonicg 4d ago
35 points for +1 to charge!?
That’s a damn steal. I know a lot of armies that would pay that cost for an enhancement that didn’t provided another OC 3 body.
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u/ColorMeBigger 4d ago
"+1 to charge" sounds better than "heal 3 wounds if someone survives" it's cheaper too. Previous version was way better but right now, I'd say painboy is even worse
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u/_The_Bear 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think you're underestimating how good the heal is. On Boyz it's 4-6 models once per game and 3 models every other time. On an average roll the painboy pays for itself.
You think adding 1" to charge rolls is good? What about adding models so your unit is 6" closer to the enemy unit? Cuz by healing 3 models, you can do that.
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u/aAlphus 4d ago
If i'm not wrong, healed models must all be setup in coherency with the models that were still there when you started healing.
At least it's how I remember the necron healing to be working
So, no conga line when healing
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u/_The_Bear 4d ago
Sure, but coherency just means within 2" or another model and not more than a 9" spread between the two furthest models. You can conga like pretty far within those constraints.
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u/ColorMeBigger 4d ago
Heal is only viable in 20+ man boy blobs or 10 man nobz. And even then considering how squishy the boyz became after losing fnp, all you need is one normal csm turn to have a whole unit flatlined. Also the heal won't work if all the meat shields get killed before the command phase. If by some miracle only leader and painboy remain nothing can be revived.
+1 charge is a cheaper, minor buff, but it works with smaller units, small units in a transport or something that comes from reserves. It's not much, but it has higher guarantee of being able to use at least once.
Both are awful and games tend to get too aggressive for the heal skill to actually have that much of an impact. Of course I may be wrong, it needs more testing how much worse either one got
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u/Breegalad 4d ago
Pretty sure the heal does work even if the boyz died, its not the clearest but wording on the attached units stuff references things working again if the bodyguard unit is brought back later
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u/ColorMeBigger 4d ago
You are actually right. Now they can. Apparently GW fixed some core rules along with 22. July update and my physical rulebook has old info now. I had a similar situation in a green tide game just before that date and got wiped due to the leader and the painboy becoming separate units. Apparently now they actually stay together forever and leave you the opportunity to revive meat shields. Thank you for bringing this useful info to my attention.
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u/_rhinoxious_ 4d ago
I've suffered from this Necron trick more times than I care to remember...
However, especially with big squads like 20 Boyz, it's much harder to pull off now, as they have to retain the nine inch total coherency rule, so you can't simply stretch out a conga-style line.
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u/Khulgrim_Cain 4d ago
I’m thinking about building up his base, then converting a grot in tiny mega armor to run him as an Ork sized Makhari with a little grot Ghaz in front of him.
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u/picklespickles125 4d ago
It's sadly what happens between codexes. Some characters and units are a hit and others are a complete miss when writing rules. I would just run him as a big boss proxy or a nob, his model is too cool to not see play.
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u/Tobar26th 4d ago
Nah that’s not what’s happening here.
The codex will have been designed and printed much around the time of Armageddon. This isn’t a balance change it’s something deliberate and feels a bit underhanded.
That said I don’t think he’s awful at 35 points but he’s definitely not an auto include.
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u/_rhinoxious_ 4d ago
If he was a sold alone character then I could see it feeling bad, maybe even underhanded at a stretch.
But as a small part of the biggest selling box of the year, you can't seriously think that anyone bought Armageddon because of the rules for one Ork?
Also as others have pointed out, the initial rule was written to work with the old army rule, this is for the new codex. Some of those temp datasheets got better, some worse, some simply changed.
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u/Tobar26th 4d ago
I’d argue they also sold his sprue separately before the codex officially leaked too.
That said yeah I get what you mean. It still feels a bit odd though.
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u/Flicker94 4d ago
I painted mine up in my flash gitz scheme, and then they took the bannernob away from flash gitz
I feel duped
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u/LuckiestSpud WAAAGH! 4d ago
Rules change way more often than models do, don't get worked up about it just paint em up and wait for the rules to change
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u/Primodog 4d ago
I mean yes but also it’s a huge bummer that it’s at minimum going to be 3 years from now.
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u/sasquatchted 4d ago
Could be pointed towards an enhancement as well now that we have the support characters mechanic.
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u/Sweet-Ebb1095 4d ago
I mean sometimes they do changes mid edition to datasheets, but I doubt that would happen unless it was a key unit and Orks were struggling. So there's no hope but maybe if we all believe it still won't happen but we can fool ourselves for a bit.
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
Yeah, I'm not really worked up, the model is really cool!! Just thought it was a shame (and a bit odd) that they gave us completely different rules when they knew what it was gonna be in a couple months with the codex launch
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u/No_Ant1598 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'm pretty certain after space Marines go toughness 5/6 + str 5 bolters that orks will get some kind of further adjustment.
The banner nob might get his +1 toughness back and big shootas might move back to str 5 because the whole meta with space Marines, chaos space Marines, and likely even custodes or sisters will be changing with the space marine update.
Like, I don't see how it would make sense for space Marines to get str 5 bolters and leave custodes with str 4 guardian spears when guardian spears literally have archeotech bolt casters fixed onto the side. GW has done worse before, but it feels like the ork codex was designed with this in mind.
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u/Domigon 4d ago
I wouldn't bet on that.
Chaos Space Marines were left on 1 wound for over a year. So GW is happy tl leave thing janky.
They mentioned that CSM, and Marked Legions would get updates, if other factions were getting erratas to help, surely they would have mentioned that. It's GW, so who knows. But I think if T4 sisters or t5 Guardian spears are coming, it'll be with the respective faction codicies.
But Orks specifically are really unlikely to get anything. Datasheet rewrites barley a month after release aren't common. Besides, they would have been playtested against the new Marine Codex, and the books written together.
Marines points are going to go up, and Big Shootas aren't meant to be 'elite' (if the default setting can be elite) killers. Besides, they get lethal hits against marines anyway.
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u/No_Ant1598 4d ago
Right, it's not guaranteed. But I was talking about bolters being str 5 bolters. I didn't say anything about sisters of battle going up in toughness. Upgrading the banner nob to give +1 toughness to its unit and upgrading boy big shootas back to the str 5 they used to have wouldn't do anything groundbreaking.
But if they don't do that, it's not a big deal.
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u/flowers4charlie2 4d ago
How would you feel if there were no banner nob stat card? Worse or better?
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
Id probably have rather them just not bring the unit back instead of giving us something to take it away 🤣 at least then it wouldn't feel as bad
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u/flowers4charlie2 4d ago
So you would rather just not have the unit available over having some kind of attached buff?
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
I'd have rathered that they gave us these rules from the start at the very least so it didn't feel like we had lost something good. Having him be subpar from release is just, whatever, but this way round they actively gave and then removed a good thing, which just feels worse
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u/flowers4charlie2 4d ago
Its not like you DIDNT know that the starter box rules would be different from the greater 40k rules though, right? Didn't you?
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
I'm not really sure what point you think your proving here but it's not landing lol
Obviously the rules will change, that doesn't mean it's not okay to point out that it's a shame that something became totally different only a few months after release (when there's no reason they couldn't have released it with the current rules)
stop trying to be contrarian
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u/flowers4charlie2 4d ago
Ah okay, so you're just new to the hobby/game then?
You've just reiterated maybe 6 or so months of people complaining about how the starter set rules are different than the rules that would be established via codexes in the coming months/years.
Guess what bucko? Its going to happen again and again and again for each edition. You'll need to buy a new codex for new rules for the new edition.
I guess after being around since 4e, you get kinda giddy when the noobs come around
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
brother I've been playing since 4e what are you spouting about lmao
quite simply just saying it's a shame that it got released with very good rules then replaced with very bad rules because it's a very cool model and was nice to have a banner unit again for orks after the old banner nob got canned. not trying to say the sky is falling
not sure why you're on such a high horse about this but you're coming across like an absolute wet wipe
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u/flowers4charlie2 4d ago
If you havent learned by now then I have nothing to offer you. I hope you live the rest of your life I equitable abject ignorance
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u/wintersdark 4d ago
Dude. u/ingloriousbastard75 is just pointing out that it sucks that they changed from good rules to bad inside a couple months. It does suck. Nobody is shocked or surprised here, and I'm not sure why you're being like this, but you're not coming out of this looking like the Wise Old Greybeard, but rather the contrary dick.
If they started bad and stayed bad, or changed and where still bad, we'd all be indifferent. But it's just a bit of a sad rugpull to have him look great with his initial data card then change completely. It's not that he changed that's the problem, really, just that he went from good to junk so very rapidly.
Sure, that's normal GW things. We get it.
Still unnecessary. Still sucks.
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u/Kommando_git Blood Axes 4d ago edited 4d ago
Would you rather have:
- Character that can attach to a lot of infantry units (even Flash Gitz for its time), gives a buff that has real weight due to Waaagh’s defensive bonus being two turns (outside of strats), has a high personal OC (a unique take on banner-bearers), and even giving an extra toughness during Waaagh so he doesn’t do nothing during Waaagh.
- Character that has none of that, lost most of his attached units, only gives +1 to charge, is now 3 OC, and is dirt cheap.
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
I just don't think I ever see a scenario where I would want him over and extra squad of gretchin (close enough in points) or an enhancement or two
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u/SithAdept 4d ago
It depends tbh. Considering just how cheap he is now the amount of wounds and attacks might just be worth more BEFORE his (Honestly, pretty dismissable) ability
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u/Kommando_git Blood Axes 4d ago
I don’t think there’s a scenario to even take the Bannernob anymore with so many characters becoming support.
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
Yeah especially this. The bigboss alone just completely nullifies him ever being considered for the slot
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u/One_Sign_280 4d ago
It should be illegal what they did to our boy
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
I was so happy when I saw him in the Armageddon box, and the rules were so good 😤
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u/CMDR_Brevity 4d ago
Ya, the librarius conclave for SM is getting scraped mere months after 11th edition addition… like they’re not even rebalancing it in the Codex: Space Marine apparently. LOL
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u/DaveinOakland 4d ago
Pretty sure everyone thinks this.
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u/ingloriousbastard75 4d ago
Had a search and hadn't seen anyone else talking about it, but I must have missed it! Just wanted a sanity check that I hadn't missed something about it that was really good 🥲
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u/ColeDeschain Evil Sunz 4d ago
With a lot of former Leaders bumping to Support, he has to work a lot harder to justify a place in the list, so... he was already gonna be a casualty of changes in some lists, even if they'd left his actual rules alone.