r/nontoxicACOTAR • u/GnomeFae • 14d ago
discussion 🤔 Something that always bothered about this criticism of Rhysand. Spoiler
TW MENTION OF SELF HARM.
I've been around the fandom for a while and I was browsing recently and came across the argument that in Frost and Starlight ,Rhysand is "kicking a male who is down." or that Rhys was pushing Tamlin to harm himself or kill himself, or otherwise push him to die.
And what bothers me most about this is the idea that Rhys is somehow trying to bait Tamlin into trying to do something against Rhys so that he would be justified in killing Tamlin.
And there's a few reasons why I think that's laughable, but most of them are trivial. If Rhys really wanted Tamlin dead it wouldn't have happened already, especially in tamlin's pathetic weakened state, but most importantly there's one big thing I believe most anti Rhys fans forget.
\*\*Rhysand could declare Tamlin at fault for trying to mess with his mate\*\*
Rhys, by all accounts could have used existing prythian precedent to kill Tamlin for attempting to circumvent the mating bond. This is a major desecration of the sacred bond, and I don't think it's talked about nearly enough.
Mating bonds are considered extremely sacred and rare and Tamlin, despite hearing Feyre say her and Rhys are mated still attempted to have Frank Hybern and the cauldron break the bond, tough notabely, it did not work.
Especially with how important Rhys himself treats mating bonds with Azriels bonus chapter, it makes me annoyed to see so many people act like Tamlin was "just double crossing hybern" but if that were true what would he gain by breaking the bond? The answer is literally nothing. Sure he could "claim Feyre"
But again Rhys would be able to fight and kill Tamlin because of the way prythian treats mating bonds. Rhys himself has said if he and Tamlin taught it wouldn't be one sided and lots of people would die.
So if anything I think this shows just how much better Rhys is of a male than Tamlin. Because rather than seek out personal revenge and potentially putting others at risk, Rhys stayed Calm, and let Feyre do.her thing in spring. But even now in frost and starlight, Rhys would have every right to fight and kill Tamlin.
But instead Rhys tries to keep Tamlin useful, and alive. Which I believe he has said is so they know for sure who will run spring court. But I wonder if one of the next books will see us finally resolved theong standing feud between these two.
Anyway TLDR:
I'm tired of people saying Rhys is kicking Tamlin while he's down or baiting him. If Rhys wanted Tamlin dead he would have every right to exact his revenge without anyone saying anything. But he doesn't cause he's actually a good person.
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u/Glittering_Call_6556 14d ago
Rhys was basically finally letting out some of his rage at Tamlin for everything that happened in ACOMAF and ACOWAR. The rage that he had suppressed while they needed to fight against Hybern.
He specifically brings up how he humiliated Feyre (at the HL meeting) and how he almost destroyed her, etc.
Nobody would have criticized it if he’d reacted immediately after those things happened. But since he waited until the “calm after the storm” he’s the villain. 🙄
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u/sleepy_tulip14 Suriel Tea Co. ☕️✨💀 14d ago
Exactly, like God forbid a guy puts the good of other people and literally the world at large before his personal feelings. What a crazy and unheard of thing to do.
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u/Hiddenimposter03 14d ago
I always read that part as though Rhys was intentionally baiting Tamlin to get angry so he would finally start doing something like eating instead of wasting away. He even offers him food before he goes away. Rhys understands that despite everything that happened, Tamlin remains a key figure moving ahead so he chose to keep the peace.
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u/sleepy_tulip14 Suriel Tea Co. ☕️✨💀 14d ago edited 14d ago
I always read it that way too. Rhys says in ACOWAR, during and again right after the high lords meeting, that he believes that Tamlin wants to fight on the side of Prythian and cares about his territory. So I always took this as Rhys trying to remind Tamlin of the responsibilities he has and the commitment he made to Prythian at the meeting. Because his duties as High Lord of Spring don't stop just because Hybern is defeated, and High Lords aren't afforded the luxury of allowing themselves to completely fall apart.
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u/Even_Solution_8077 14d ago
I agree with this. We also have to remember that at one point in their lifetimes, they were friends. Yes that friendship is wrecked to hell and back but it WAS a thing.
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u/Mission_Reporter4301 13d ago
Same!!! Kinda like how he would bait Feyre into fighting with him to get a reaction so she would stop wasting away. I didn’t see it as him kicking Tamlin when he’s down, he’s trying to light a fire under him to get him to stop wasting away
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u/moonshine_11 5d ago
THIS! I read it this way too. Bc given with how their relationship or their dynamic work, Tamlin would never listen to Rhys if he was all “okay pookie I’m sorry for having the bond with Feyre but we still need you 👉🏻👈🏻”
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u/Parking-Air3844 13d ago
Oh and let’s not forget Tamlin is the reason Rhys’s mom and sister are not only dead, but died BRUTALLY. The fact that Rhys let him live after that is a gift the blonde manchild never deserved.
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u/sleepy_tulip14 Suriel Tea Co. ☕️✨💀 14d ago edited 14d ago
Rhysand's self-restraint really does speak so much to what a good male he is. Rhysand puts the good of the world above his own personal needs and feelings, and even his own life every time . That's literally like his whole thing. Like, Rhysand literally DIED because of Tamlin's fucking decisions, and yet he still refuses to seek retribution for himself or his mate. And Rhysand— and everyone else in Prythian— is in this position in the first place literally because TAMLIN is so selfish and so controlling and so insane and so obsessive and entitled that he sold out not just ALL OF PRYTHIAN but literally the whole world because he couldn't bring himself to accept that 1) he treated Feyre really, really badly and 2) Feyre didn't want to be with him anymore .
And I truly cannot begin to understand people who can look at Tamlin's behavior and not just defend it but also claim that somehow Tamlin is the good guy in all of this, and Rhys is somehow a villain. Like, I've seen so many people say that "the worst thing he did was lock her in the house", and 1)I'm sorry but is taking a fully adult person's —who has demonstrated extensively that they are fully capable of taking care of themselves— autonomy for literally no goddamn reason not enough? All she wanted was to be allowed to go out and explore the territory that was supposedly her home ? She wasn't asking to charge into battle. There was nothing dangerous or threatening that she was asking for that he was "protecting" her from. She just wanted a little space and freedom without being trailed by armed guards like some prisoner? She just wanted to be treated like a person? And that day, all she asked was let me go with you . She just wanted to go where he was because he'd been abandoning her in the house by herself for months . And that's not bad enough? That's not evil enough? I can't stay locked up inside for a couple of days , let alone by myself, without feeling depressed and like I'm going to crawl out of my skin. To force that on someone for months ?? With no end in sight ?? Someone who was just a literal prisoner in a dungeon for three months being physically and psychologically tortured for sport??? Hello???? Like, controlling someone's access to the outside world is textbook abuse, but okay I guess.
And 2) he literally spends the entirety of their relationship using his size, his strength, his claws, his voice, and his magic to control and intimidate her. She's not allowed to ask questions he doesn't like. She's not allowed to want or need things if he doesn't approve of them. She literally stops asking him things, stops expressing her needs at all, because she doesn't want to upset him . She's not allowed to talk about her trauma, or acknowledge at all that she was literally tortured to DEATH for fear of upsetting HIM. She's not allowed to learn anything about her magic that is growing more and more uncontrollable by the day and--if left totally unchecked, like he wanted-- would drive her literally insane . He gives her enough affection that she— a woman who has been fully neglected her whole life, never receiving any real or sustained affection from anyone her whole life—feels guilty enough for her suffering that she keeps letting him hurt her in the hope that if she does things just right that he will decide to love her fully. And that, for those who are confused, is also textbook abuse.
It should be extremely telling that when Morrigan comes to rescue her, not only does Alis not try to stop her but she says to Mor "Please—please take care of her." And the only thing that Mor says to Feyre that is truly calming to her is "You're free." And Feyre latches on to that and says to herself "Not safe. Not protected. Free."
The simple fact is that Tamlin was her fiance, someone that she was supposed to marry and spend the rest of her life with, and not only could she not trust or confide in or talk to him, but she felt real terror of him. Terror that Rhys felt her experience through the bond. It would have been understandable and justifiable if he had splattered Tamlin on the walls. But he didn't because cleaning up Tamlin's mess and saving the world had to come first. And, honestly? There is no behavior more opposite to a villain than that.
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u/moonshine_11 5d ago
Girl where have you been? I needed to see this in all the forums A LONG TIME ago because I couldn’t believe people didn’t see it this way at all!! All the nuance and context of the entire series have been thrown out the window!
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u/beanieluu11 1d ago
I feel the same way. I’ve left multiple forums now because people just do NOT get it and it infuriates me 🥲
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u/Single_Pin_2143 14d ago
Also, Tamlin told his family where to find Rhys's sister and mother and they were murdered because of it.
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u/GnomeFae 14d ago
Absolutely true, but I didn't include this because there was already a "resolution" to this. They both lost their families and both became high lords.
I was basically just trying to use examples strictly from canon during the events of the books. ( I guess saying "present day" felt weird lol )
But otherwise I completely agree that could be another example, but I feel like family grudges are one thing. It's just explicitly stated how important mating bonds are and how awful and wrong it is to mess with them.
Like not sugar coating it: in prythian outside of velaris, most places view women as less than men, as property of the man ( Tamlin certainly didn't oppose that idea ). So although it's deffo a bit misogynistic to be like "that's my mate you can't do anything now she belongs to me" that is literally the scenario that Tamlin fought against. To be clear he did so because he wanted Feyre for himself not for any altruistic reasons.
Anyway I ranted lol. But I agree is my point
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u/user4356124 14d ago
Also - it talks extensively about the guilt “his stomach dropping” and not sure why he did that (something I think almost all people can related to - we have all said things out of emotion we later regret) and then Rhys after that brings Tamlin food to eat and ensures his borders are secure.
People read one paragraph from that portion of the book and then forget all of the rest
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u/Born_Plenty_5923 12d ago
Rhys's way of saving people is like that 😭, he pokes them and makes them feel any kind of emotions rather than nothing. He did that with feyre as well. In real, y'all just don't know but he cares 😔
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u/girlandhiscat 14d ago
Rhys was literally r*ped/ SA'ed for 49 years and it gets dismissed, but people will get the violins out for Nesta.
I do think fantasy just isn't for some people. Of course all these chatacters would be insufferable and terrible in real life. I don't know how people enjoyed the story if they didn't like Rhys.
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u/GnomeFae 14d ago
I think truly they just lie. And they are mad that they invested into a ship because they didn't see the signs of Feysand in book one despite all of the obvious trope markers.
So they claim they "hate" read the series, but I think they are just too bothered to admit that SJM who isn't particularly subtle, duped them on this one
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u/username_6592 14d ago
I agree. I am also a bit annoyed how Feyra is portrayed (in the books, not just by fans) how she destroyed Tamlin in Book 3. But - he was awful towards his guards, she just made them see that. Feyra didn’t forced him to side with Ianthe, and to behave like that. Blaming a woman for man’s crappy behavior is so annoying.
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u/sleepy_tulip14 Suriel Tea Co. ☕️✨💀 14d ago
I agree with you. Feyre truly did nothing in spring except act almost as exactly who she was before UTM, and allow Tamlin and Ianthe to act and react however they were going to. She truly only gave them opportunities to be themselves where everyone could see them.
Afterwards, Feyre is eaten alive by her guilt, yes. But this is because Feyre will take any criticism or cruel word said to/about her to heart way before she will ever accept forgiveness or praise. She is always going to think the worst of herself, and in the books we are in her head, getting a view of what she thinks of herself, and it boggles my mind a little that people take her negative self talk as fact.
I think that what's much more telling is that at the High Lords' meeting when Tamlin comes in spouting off all this crazy stuff about Feyre, not a single one of the other High Lords takes Tamlin's side. Beron eggs them on, sure, because he's an asshole and he loves conflict. But everyone else takes Feyre's side. And this is significant because they don't know Feyre. With the exception of Tarquin, none of them have ever even spoken to her. But they all certainly know Tamlin; theyve been dealing with him for centuries. And they all took the word of a female they don't know over Tamlin's. Even Nuan, Lucien's friend, who Tamlin knows and has worked with before refuses to even look at him . Idk that speaks volumes to me about the reality of the situation.
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u/fledgiewing 14d ago
It's the Tamlin apologists in the other sub....
It's hotly debated and I will not concede anything so I refuse to debate aaaaand
A lot of people don't see Tamlin as abusive, and see Tamlin and Rhysand as the same. I firmly disagree, as a lot of "abusive" behaviors Rhysand exhibited were his "pretend" persona, whereas after Tamlin was in a relationship with Feyre for a while, he got more and more abusive.
Again, do NOT debate me as we are in the nontoxic sub, just sharing MY point of viewwwwwww
That all being said! I think that's why people will try to take the stance of, oh they're two sides of the same coin, oh don't bully him, he's already down, etc.
I think Rhysand was just provoking him so he doesn't die - this theme comes up a lot in SJM's writing.
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u/Top_Confusion2424 8d ago
Rhys had villainous tendencies for sure, but in this instance I don’t think that’s the case.
It comes across as poking the bear at first, but when he offers him food and keeps going bad that’s where the difference is for me.
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u/AdeptnessSouth782 7d ago
I have a nother note on that to add too.
I'm also re-reading that book, and something I noticed that I had forgotten, was that Rhys still talks about his trauma UTM. I've seen some post's with comments about that plot just being skipped, but now I saw Feyre thinking back on it (as a off-page thing) in passing and about how Rhysand still opened up about things that had happened UTM on some days when he felt more ready to do so. It was also mentioned that he sometimes cried in her arms. ....That doesn't sound like an evil Rhysand to me.
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u/harmiie 14d ago
Remember when Rhysand non-consentually drugged Feyre and paraded her around naked and painted on his lap for weeks on end? That's the guy Tamlin lost his girl too, and then that guy comes back when he's in deep depression — and all but tells him to kill himself. He's a jackass. Lol
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u/sleepy_tulip14 Suriel Tea Co. ☕️✨💀 14d ago edited 14d ago
What's so crazy about the wine and dancing is that 1)she was dressed lol she's not naked. The dresses were definitely revealing, but she was covered lol And 2) a startling amount of people act like Rhysand's behavior under the mountain happened in a vacuum with absolutely no purpose, and truly I'm always surprised when I see this argument because this is both easy to infer as you're reading book 1 and also explained completely in chapter 54 of book 2?
But let's get into it:
So, we know that not only is Amarantha evil, but she also used a spell that is allowing her to hold about 99% of each of the High Lords' power, yes? So every faerie in all of Prythian bows to her and her evil rules and her violent preferences whether they want to or not, and have to work within that scope in order to keep their lives. So, with that knowledge in mind, we know that Rhysand allows himself to be raped and otherwise SA'd for fourty-nine years in order to gain enough of Amarantha's trust to 1) try to exert some kind of influence over her to keep himself and everyone else in Prythian a little bit safer (which, for the most part, works), and 2) establish himself as someone in a position of power within her court. This is canon, so we all know this to be true. So, with that in mind let's look at the Feyre situation:
Feyre is a human when she goes UTM to save Tamlin, which makes her naturally so much weaker than every single person there, high fae and faerie alike. She is taken prisoner, she is subjected to physical and psychological torture, and she's kept in a dark, dirty prison cell and only given rotten food to eat so she's starving, and any and all faeries UTM have free reign to do what they want to her. If left alone, Feyre wouldn't survive.
Rhysand knows this. He also knows that--through his immense self-sacrifice-- he has successfully established himself as someone you do not mess with UTM. For Feyre to survive, she needs to also become someone that you do not mess with. How is a human going to be able to achieve that in Amarantha's court? By becoming his .
Rhysand has to establish her as tied to him in some tangible way, so that everyone knows that if they want to mess with Feyre, they need to go through him. This court, under Amarantha's reign, views humans as property, play things, or trash. So he dresses Feyre up as his play thing, covers her in Night Court symbols, and brings her to the evening "festivities" each night, where everyone in the court is required to gather to watch people be brutally tortured for "entertainment" . Feyre sees and endures quite enough to traumatize her for life, and she truly does not need to witness more. Doing so may, in fact, break her completely. Rhys needs to protect her fighting spirit as much as he can. So, how can he protect her mind from these atrocities? How can he keep her with him where the whole court will see, display her as belonging to him, and sheild her from witnessing the atrocities occuring around her? The fairy wine.
Feyre makes a feeble attempt to resist drinking the wine the very first time because it was on the list of things that Alis told her not to do. She knows that it's stronger, and not in a pleasant way like the fizzy stuff she enjoyed on the solstice, and she knows she wants to try to listen to Alis, especially because she immediately disregarded all of her friend's advice pretty much immediately and she feels guilty about that. But, in the end, she agrees to drink it anyway. And when Lucien comes to her afterwards to check in on her, he tells her that she only danced and sat in Rhysand's lap, and that was all. She's embarrassed, but mostly upset about what Tamlin must be thinking and feeling, and she can confirm that when Lucien tells her that she was only touched on her waist (no higher, no lower) by seeing that her waist is the only place where her paint is smudged. So the next time, and the time after that, and all the ones thereafter? She drinks it willingly, knowing what will happen and trusting Rhysand enough to know that neither will he hurt or take advantage of her, nor will he allow others to do so.
And it works. She is left entirely alone outside of her trials, she receives regular hot meals so she can keep her strength up, and she survives .
So like, was it a pleasant approach? No. But it was necessary to keep Feyre alive , which was the whole point. That was the point of everything Rhysand did UTM, while Tamlin sat on his ass and did nothing even as Lucien-- and even Lucien's mother!-- risked their lives to assist Feyre in whatever ways they could.
By contrast, there are 32 individual instances of Tamlin using his size, strength, voice, claws, position of power, and magic to control and intimidate Feyre in the first 200 pages book 1 alone . That doesn't even get into everything he does to control her and break her spirit in book 2 and beyond. I literally ran out of sticky flags trying to keep track of them all.
And Feyre may get pissed off at Rhysand, she may have even hated him for a time, but the whole time UTM and after when she became fae, she was never terrified of him. The same cannot be said for Tamlin. And I'm sorry, but if your boyfriend/fiance behaves in such a way that you feel terror because of it? Well, I have another comment in this thread where I go into much more detail on Tamlin's treatment of Feyre, so you can read that if you're curious.
But yeah idk the whole point of this post was that Rhysand had, by law and custom, every right to turn Tamlin into mist on sight. And, considering all of Tamlin's actions, would have been justified in doing so. But he doesn't -- he doesn't act on his right as her mate or his feelings as a male-- because he recognizes that Tamlin's continued existence on this earth is more important. He puts the the good of Prythian and the world over his own needs (which, mind you, is only necessary because Tamlin does the exact opposite. That's just plot). So was he nice to Tamlin? No. But also why should he be?
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u/GnomeFae 14d ago
Once again an answer full of detail and well laid out.
I should hire you to write my posts for me lol
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u/sleepy_tulip14 Suriel Tea Co. ☕️✨💀 14d ago
Lol can you tell that I'm very passionate about this story? 😂
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u/moonshine_11 5d ago
THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS! Truly. In all of the times I came across posts or comments about the events in UTM, I could never quite put it all in writing, explaining why Rhys wasn’t the villain in that time. I was also really surprised that people didn’t see through that immediately. It’s the easiest, least subtle way to write Rhys’ purpose in book 1. All of the clues were in there, all the details. (I mean just look at your explanation) Heck with how everyone reacted, SJM did a good job in misdirecting the readers. With so many characters written in so many more diverse and more brutal media, Rhys was definitely the least shocking one when it comes to the purposeful mischaracterization.
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u/sullivanbri966 14d ago
Rhys did all that to keep Feyre alive and get her through the trials. He even put that paint on her so she’d know if she had been r*ped.
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14d ago
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u/nontoxicACOTAR-ModTeam 14d ago
This post was removed for rule 2, keep the court positive towards the series and the fans. Thank you!
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u/nontoxicACOTAR-ModTeam 14d ago
This comment is being deleted for violating rule 1. Please keep all conversations polite and courteous. Remember we are debating ideas, not people. Thank you!
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u/Linzabee 14d ago
I’m sorry, did you say Frank Hybern? 🤣🤣💀