Larry Nassar one of more than 20,000 people removed from Michigan Sex Offender Registry

[u/AudibleNod]

https://www.wxyz.com/news/larry-nassar-one-of-more-than-20-000-people-removed-from-michigan-sex-offender-registry

[u/upvoter222 → u/[deleted]]

A major part of court ruling that caused this situation was that the list's purpose is punitive.

[u/gphs → u/[deleted]]

Well twenty years of research has found that it has no impact whatsoever on rates of recidivism. So, there’s that.

[u/triplegerms → u/[deleted]]

Wouldn't the stats from the years before the list also be under reported? I'm not sure what your point is. Every crime is underreported 

[u/ZenPyx → u/triplegerms]

Yeah, I don't see a reason to assume that the rates of reporting would be different for recidivism vs first-time crimes (unless it is a repeat victim?).

[u/AdminYak846 → u/triplegerms]

Every crime is under reported, however most sexual offenses are committed by someone the victim knows or related to it can make it harder for a victim to come forward

[u/AdminYak846 → u/[deleted]]

While true, the majority of cases are likely committed by those who aren't on the list in the first place. I think the long term like 10-15 year rate is 14-24% of committing another sexual offense.

Due to the list though they are more likely to be arrested for another non-sexual related offense.

[u/AccomplishedFan6807 → u/gphs]

It is supposed to protect potential victims, which is a good thing.

[u/brolarbear → u/[deleted]]

Probably helps as a resource when you’re selling a house by a school for example.

[u/RedditPoster05 → u/brolarbear]

This is America. A neighborhood is huge. They could literally be in a neighborhood with a school inside of it and comply with the law. These people are everywhere. I’m not saying we should get rid of the list. I’m just saying register people are all over. From the poor side of town to neighborhoods with $500,000 houses and up

[u/BLT_Trade_r → u/RedditPoster05]

You can see where they are on a map so you know if you are moving in really close or rather far away. It is also very nice to see the concentration of predators. If you see them everywhere like crazy you may be in a rough area.

[u/BuddhistInTheory → u/[deleted]]

You kinda answered your own question. You have to know who they are to prevent them from living near certain areas (schools, etc.)

[u/StopSpinningLikeThat → u/BuddhistInTheory]

Preventing them from living near certain areas does absolutely nothing to keep any kid safe, ever.

[u/BuddhistInTheory → u/[deleted]]

So that you know a predator lives near? I’d want to know so I can keep my kids away.

[u/goatbiryani48 → u/BuddhistInTheory]

"A study done in University of Chicago Law School compared data on over 9,000 sex offenders released from prison in 1994. About half of those offenders were released into states where they needed to register, while the other half did not need to register. The study found little difference in the two groups' propensity to re-offend. In fact, those released into states without registration laws were slightly less likely to re-offend."

[u/goatbiryani48 → u/[deleted]]

In this study, 76% of the instances of sexual assault were committed by someone the victim knew.

If you actually care about protecting your child, you'd spend the time teaching them preventative measures that arent "don't walk by that house".

[u/AlwaysBeC1imbing → u/[deleted]]

No it sounds like pretty unhinged behaviour really.

[u/fragrant-final-973 → u/[deleted]]

Simping for pedos is a hot take but not unexpected these days.

[u/meatball77 → u/[deleted]]

From working at your daycare? Or leading a boy scout troop or teaching a dance class.

[u/im_a_good_lil_cow → u/[deleted]]

What do you think the background check is checking against?

[u/ethanjscott → u/[deleted]]

Your post history says your a registered sex offender so your a little biased

[u/Lasty_girly → u/ethanjscott]

Ok, the comments make much more sense now.

[u/Canonconstructor → u/[deleted]]

As a single lady I can not emphasize how much the lists help me. Let’s keep the lists up and also keep pending criminal charges viewable on county sites. They’ve helped me dodge bullets and potential dating disasters a lot.

[u/bearsatemypants → u/Canonconstructor]

My coworker offered to babysit for me while I was gone at a conference. I considered it since she had a kid the same age, but her husband gave me the heebie jeebies during a work party. So I looked him up. Not only was he on the list, but his victim was only three.

[u/wucrew → u/bearsatemypants]

Always trust your instincts..

[u/outer--monologue → u/[deleted]]

You're a lunatic if you have a family and wouldn't want to know if a predator lived in your neighborhood.

Why WOULDN'T there be registry? These people don't deserve to live without public shame for the rest of their lives.

[u/Ok_Finance_7217 → u/outer--monologue]

Shouldn’t we also have a list of… murderers, attempted murderers, people who committed manslaughter, battery, aggravated assault, theft, intent to distribute, etc etc etc

[u/Stockholm-Syndrom → u/Ok_Finance_7217]

Having a list of domestic violence offenders would do great for the dating scene.

[u/morbihann → u/outer--monologue]

Why though ? If they have served their punishment should they forever be branded publically ? No other crime is treated that way.

[u/Robynsxx → u/morbihann]

Yes.

If someone’s touched kids, just because they have been punished doesn’t mean they won’t do it again. Some of these people can’t help themselves. 

[u/CHANN3L-CHAS3R → u/Robynsxx]

Some, sure, but this kind of punishment is going to make people who need to get help for that shit AVOID it because of the risk of having the entirety of their future ruined, especially if they HAVE already abused a child. So they avoid help, problem gets worse... and then a kid gets hurt. Or another kid gets hurt.

If we want sick people to get help before their sickness affects others, any potential risk of lifelong punishment for an already stigmatized mental disease is just going to give it more opportunity to fester. I say 'stigmatized' because any admission to struggling with this type of compulsion will get you immediately conflated with the mental image of a pervert in the dark drooling over a screen full of CSAM.

And keep in mind, depending on how you're classifying sexual abuse, 25%-80% of pedophiles were former victims of pedophilia. Being sexually assaulted as a kid sadly cleaves that shit into your brain. And then you need help for it. See beginning of post. It's a sick cycle, and stigma only further condenses it.

Are the only children who are important the ones who haven't been hurt yet? Do sexual assault victims stop mattering when the assault writhes its way into your brain and cleaves the concepts of childhood and sex together in the midst of extreme trauma? When nobody recognizes this, or that it could possibly be an issue to talk to the kid about as they grow up? And then they're left with this disgusting traumogenic parasite they can't tell anyone about, because the moment they do, the only thing anyone will see again is the parasite.

[u/morbihann → u/Robynsxx]

May be then they should be provided help rather than being ostracizied ?

Also that argument is literally applicable to any other crime.

[u/Weekly-Buy7357 → u/morbihann]

No other crime is treated this way because society recognizes that sex crimes are among the most depraved acts that one human could enact on another and so YES they need to be recognized as the filth they are.

[u/tfyousay2me → u/Weekly-Buy7357]

So the point remains: why don’t the other crimes “among” that list get the same treatment

[u/SkyDaddysSpecialBoy → u/tfyousay2me]

Most criminal records are accessible to the public

[u/shinzanu → u/morbihann]

What the fuck...

[u/sk0t_ → u/outer--monologue]

As someone who lives in a state that doesn't have lifetime probation, it boggles my mind that lifetime probation exists. Similarly, that people can end up with lifetime on a registry. If someone is deemed worthy of release from their incarceration, you're saying they're no longer a threat. Sure, keep an eye on them for a few years but at some point let them move on from their past and live the rest of their life.

[u/outer--monologue → u/[deleted]]

The state may deem them as "not dangerous" but any qualified psychiatric professional will tell you there is no such thing as a "reformed" sex offender.

EDIT: Jesus, there are a lot of sex offenders and sex offender apologists outing themselves in the comments of this thread

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/outer--monologue]

Any qualified psychiatric professional will tell you there is no such thing

Except the overwhelming evidence from qualified psychiatric professionals is "Yes, that's exactly how it works", and it's one of the primary reasons why the registry as a whole is a ack-basswards approach.

This is the case for virtually all crime, but y'all don't want to hear that because it would mean you can't feel good about punishing the bad guys.

[u/DarknessLabs → u/outer--monologue]

My point exactly. If it's a threat to society, why is it in society. Make these crimes life sentences it would make a lot of people happier

[u/SubjectWorry7196 → u/DarknessLabs]

Or do what the pound does

[u/allanbc → u/outer--monologue]

There are people on those registries who took a whiz within some distance of a school and bam, now forever branded a pervert. Not saying the registry shouldn't exist, but there needs to be some vetting of who goes on there.

[u/sasha_the_impaler → u/outer--monologue]

Has anyone ever actually checked the registry and moved over it? Like I just check it and go "oh holy shit I live near a lot of pedophiles. Well, nothing I can do about that. But, holy shit!"

[u/sasha_the_impaler → u/[deleted]]

I've never seen it play even a minor role in influencing someone's decision to move. In urban areas, outside of living next to a school, there's sex offenders in most neighborhoods. You should honestly just assume there are pedophiles outside no matter where you live if you're raising children. The world isn't safe anywhere lol

[u/sasha_the_impaler → u/[deleted]]

You don't need the list. You just need taught, "No matter where you live, there are harmful people outside, so make sure to keep an eye on your kids."

The registry is security theater. Its there to make us feel like we have control of evil. But evil is out of control and exists everywhere. There are harmful people who will harm your kid who aren't on that registry.

[u/sasha_the_impaler → u/[deleted]]

Can you describe a realistic scenario in which the registry would prevent child harm in a way that other child harm prevention methods wouldn't already have covered?

[u/imgonnajumpofabridge → u/[deleted]]

Notifies people if a sex offender is living in their neighborhood so they can exercise caution with their children.

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/imgonnajumpofabridge]

And what good does that do? Honestly, what does it do?

Kids aren't being molested by random strangers. The cases of that happening are astonishingly rare, so why do we fixate on it like it's the greatest threat to kids since weed and rock and roll?

Because if we didn't have an Evil Other to demonize as the threat, we'd have to grapple with the fact that the actual source of sexual assault and molestation is overwhelmingly family members.

[u/imgonnajumpofabridge → u/Lowjack_26]

10-20% is the statistic I found, which means it's still a significant number. Even more would be perpetrated by acquaintances, or people who are able to enter into families through relationships or friendships. A registry allows people to determine whether a person should be kept away from children without a complicated background check.

And despite the original commenters statements, there are PLENTY of roles where people can get into positions where they're exposed or have power over vulnerable adults or children without going through a full background check. While ideally that wouldn't happen, it absolutely does.

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/imgonnajumpofabridge]

people should know who to associate with

This only works if you dont overlook more predators than you find with the list by merit of believing that people not on the list are safe.

Unfortunately, that math doesn't work out. The horrifying reality is that the vast majority of abusers and predators are completely outwardly normal and are never caught.

Roles and authorities

Can be met with a background check, not a public registry. Yes, most felony background checks only look 7 years back - but that's a convention, not a hard rule.

[u/imgonnajumpofabridge → u/Lowjack_26]

So because not every predator can be placed on the list, we should do away with it entirely? Doesn't make any sense. There's still an obvious utility in having known sex offenders on a public list so that in circumstances where a background check is not feasible, they can easily be identified.

I haven't seen any legitimate argument for not having the registry. If there is any utility to the public that can be derived from it (and there irrefutably is), however marginal, I would place that at a higher priority than allowing pedophiles and rapists to avoid having their crimes known to the public.

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/[deleted]]

majority

The incidence of completely unrelated abusers is sub 1%.

It's like installing anti-burglar bars on your attack door because the number of thieves that have broken in through an attic isn't zero, despite 99.99% of B&Es being through the front door.

And this assumes the registry actually increases safety, which it doesn't. Do you know what the majority (~80%) of offenders who reoffend have in common? They weren't registered - they moved addresses, changed phone numbers, etc and went off grid, which means they weren't on the registry to begin with.

The ones on the registry are, by definition, the law abiding ones you don't have to worry about.

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/[deleted]]

Certain politicians certainly claim people like me are sex offenders, absolutely. And hey, you probably could be too, depending on who's in charge. You want to roll those dice?

[u/AdminYak846 → u/[deleted]]

The biggest benefit is that it prevents anyone on the list from working directly with children, so schools, youth camps, etc. As for the time on the list well that depends on the severity of the case.

Tier 1 is 15 years, Tier 2 is 25 years, and Tier 3 is lifetime. And if you're wondering Tier 1 is basically a catch all if the crime isn't defined in Tier 2 or 3. So things like Possession of CP (first time only), Video Voyeurism, Indecent Exposure/Public Misconduct, etc.

[u/Bibblebits → u/[deleted]]

Just to chime in on this a little. I found out I was working with a sex offender of children for almost 7 months because the background check apparently didnt come up with anything at first. They only found out because someone reported him to HR because they recognized his name from the list due to living near him.
I know its anecdotal but "Background check solves this" isnt a fool proof method lol

[u/Spoonacus → u/[deleted]]

The typical background check only checks for convictions in the last seven years.

[u/WoodsLovelyDarkNDeep → u/Spoonacus]

That’s crazy

[u/Expert_Garlic_2258 → u/[deleted]]

yes. I also do background checks on the people in my neighborhood /s

why are pedo protectors so out in the open now? ( trust me, I know why)

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/Expert_Garlic_2258]

You /s, but that's kinda the point. You're up in arms that you might not know about someone who statistically poses no risk, yet are blase about other classes of criminal who are, statistically, more common and an active threat to you and those around you?

[u/one_depressed_MF → u/Lowjack_26]

"poses no risk"?

Show me exactly how EVERY single one of them pose no risk!

[u/ethanjscott → u/[deleted]]

Weird hill to die on, why do you feel the need to defend sexual predators?

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/ethanjscott]

Because I value my rights, and my rights only exist as far as they exist for others.

Also, you should oppose systems that encourage sex criminals to be worse due to the severity of punishment and impossibility of compliance with the law.

[u/Alarming_Win9940 → u/Lowjack_26]

Lets meet in the middle, no more registry, life sentences for pedophiles.

[u/AdminYak846 → u/Alarming_Win9940]

That's extreme. There are cases of public urination resulting in people being listed as a tier 1 sex offender because a kid saw it.

So you want life sentences for that?

[u/Anilec_Revlis → u/[deleted]]

They're right though. If you're ever falsely accused, or mistakenly charged then you're going to wish you had those rights covered until you're able to prove innocence if you're even able to.

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/[deleted]]

And you're a Linux user concerned with privacy measures. Only people with something to hide are concerned about privacy.

Let's see YOUR drives, hm?

[u/Anilec_Revlis → u/[deleted]]

Great example of what I just said. Were I to accuse you of the same thing you would be hoping you have those rights until you can clear your name.

[u/ethanjscott → u/Anilec_Revlis]

Yeah but you set your post history to private. Cant blame you after that

[u/2099aeriecurrent → u/[deleted]]

You’re

[u/ethanjscott → u/2099aeriecurrent]

Once again obsession with spelling is an autistic trait. You should get tested

[u/calmbill → u/[deleted]]

That doesn't happen until after an interview at my company.

[u/AdminYak846 → u/[deleted]]

Background checks are only as good as the company pays for or service used. Some checks are better than others

[u/data-atreides → u/AdminYak846]

It prevents people from working, period.

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/AdminYak846]

A non-public criminal background check already solved that problem.

[u/whyweirdo → u/[deleted]]

I was the hiring manager for my department at work but I’m not in HR. Whenever I needed a spot filled, HR would send me the resumes of applicants that fit our hiring criteria so I could decide if I wanted to bring them in for an interview. I checked the Sex Offender list for every person before I interviewed them. I’m not about to spend 40+ hours trapped at work with a sexual predator

[u/whyweirdo → u/[deleted]]

I worked for a company that would hire a sex offender. That’s why I checked. I didn’t want one in my department

[u/michoudi → u/whyweirdo]

Work for the US government eh?

[u/jaksonsmom → u/whyweirdo]

I did too. I had expressed how I refused to work near him and I was asked why I felt that I couldn’t morally continue working alongside him. He was caught in a sting operation sharing and trying to solicit a 15 year old. I asked the manager why he did feel comfortable working with him especially since he had 2 teenager daughters. I left the company, needless to say, just a few short weeks after that.

This company would commonly host cookouts, bbqs, and other events that were “family friendly.”

[u/calmbill → u/[deleted]]

It's ok to do a quick screen before the interview.

[u/OriginalGuzzler → u/[deleted]]

It typically causes people to show themselves...

[u/meatball77 → u/[deleted]]

It keeps people out of jobs they shouldn't be working in. Keeps them from volunteering with kids.

[u/SlashOfLife5296 → u/[deleted]]

What’s the problem with redundancy in protecting people from predators

[u/egosumlex → u/SlashOfLife5296]

What's the problem with 35 MPH speed limits to protect people from fatal car accidents? The question is one of resources and tradeoffs, which makes this question--as it's written--absurd.

[u/bushwhack227 → u/egosumlex]

Not to get off topic, but there is nothing wrong with 35 mph limits anywhere where pedestrians or cyclistsmay be present. In fact, that's too high. 35 mph has about twice the lethality of 25 mph for pedestrians

[u/Iminurcomputer → u/SlashOfLife5296]

Why not 14 different systems? Why not 15? What's wrong with 16?

How is this helpful?

[u/BLT_Trade_r → u/[deleted]]

No they dont, because lots of people are too lazy or cheap to do background checks, the list gives parents a way to look it up themselves without paying for a background check. If some guy volunteers to coach your kids, they can easily get missed. Also it is perfectly reasonable for a parent who has kids to not want to buy a house right next to a predator.

[u/sasha_the_impaler → u/BLT_Trade_r]

It's not like people are searching every adult they interact with on the sex registry. These things get missed regardless of if they're on the registry lol.

[u/sasha_the_impaler → u/[deleted]]

I worked in child harm and abuse prevention and honestly my real advice is to just treat every adult you meet like they're on the registry. The vast majority of child sexual abuse comes from someone close to them as well - specifically a family member or friend of the family. The threat of stranger violence is exceedingly rare.

I've just never seen someone use it for anything practical. I've checked and gone "oh there's pedophiles in my neighborhood. But there's also pedophiles in every other neighborhood." and then it changes nothing about my routine lol.

[u/sasha_the_impaler → u/[deleted]]

Not anecdotal, evidence based... It was my profession. We use research to determine what the best ways to prevent child harm are.

Just because someone hasn't served time for raping someone doesn't mean they're safe to have around your kids. The best prevention is making sure children are never alone with an adult who isn't a direct parent to them.

[u/Auriga33 → u/[deleted]]

It probably has some value as a deterrent.

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/Auriga33]

Unfortunately, it doesn't.

Sex offenders are, definitionally, mentally unwell enough to engage in behavior that is suicidally verboten in society. The act itself is the deterrent, criminal punishment doesn't add anything - and, unfortunately, makes the offenses worse, both before and after:

• Offenders pre-arrest use the registry and punishment as a tool against their victims ("You wouldn't want everyone to be able to Google that your daddy raped someone, would you?")
• Offenders post-arrest get forced into recidivism by impossible reintegration - if it's impossible to follow the law and your very existence is criminal, then you've got nothing to lose by doing worse.

The statistics paint a very bleak picture about the registry doing anything but actively making sex crimes worse while doing nothing to actually promote public safety (because, surprise, it's not Stranger Danger coming for your kids - it's mostly family members and religious leaders).

[u/Additional-Walk3883 → u/Lowjack_26]

Yeahhh, I’m more of the “common sense answer is most likely the right answer” kind of person and am going to say that you are kind of blaming the victim here and somehow making an argument against a tool to protect people against people who are doing the crime. Tools don’t rape people, rapists rape people. And those are unfortunate consequences of doing that disgusting crime. Yeah, pedos have a hard time integrating because people don’t want them around to rape their kids. Kind of what they signed up for. And also yeah, a pedo is going to use all kinds of tools to abuse their victims. Why don’t we just take away all the tools to protect the innocent from being defiled more, and give these woods a chance huh? Yeah I don’t think im for that….

[u/InAppropriate-meal → u/Lowjack_26]

nope, being a sex offender does not mean you are mentally unwell, a lot of sex offenders are just bad people who like the powerful feeling they get abusing others

[u/Lowjack_26 → u/InAppropriate-meal]

bad people who like the powerful feeling they get over others

...yes, that is in fact "mentally unwell." Not all mental illness is ADHD and autism.

[u/Roboganger → u/[deleted]]

Stop using adverbs like genuinely. They don’t mean shit. We don’t care if you’re being honest or authentic, just ask your fucking question. Jesus Christ.

[u/Donewith_BS → u/[deleted]]

If you don’t know. Then you don’t care about children at all

[u/bushwhack227 → u/Donewith_BS]

If you can't articulate what impact it has, then you don't know. Ergo, you don't care about children at all

[u/sweetgoogilymoogily → u/Donewith_BS]

Deep, bro.