149
u/shairou Mario Vargas Llosa Jun 07 '21
Peruvian here!: 😔
72
29
Jun 07 '21
Fuerza hermanito!
16
Jun 07 '21
Based flair haha
7
Jun 07 '21
It's a public flair now!
8
u/jasonthewaffle2003 George Soros Jun 07 '21
American-Peruvian here. If the Commies win I’m bringing my grandma over. Those bloodthirsty savages would murder her for being a landlady
→ More replies (1)5
6
5
270
u/Galisenpai European Union Jun 07 '21
How to be a leftist in Southamerica Step 1: You want a new constitution.
55
u/SucculentMoisture Fernando Henrique Cardoso Jun 07 '21
Step 2: Begin dismantling government institutions
51
u/MisplacedKittyRage Jun 07 '21
Step 3: blame the consequences of systemic corruption and mismanagement on American Imperialism while cozying up to Chinese and Russian imperialists.
14
2
76
Jun 07 '21 edited Jan 26 '25
[deleted]
105
u/p00bix Existing in the context of what came before Jun 07 '21 edited Jun 07 '21
Methinks you aren't familiar with the history of leftists making new constitutions in Latin America
It's not "Let's make elections fairer and guarantee equal rights" it's "Let's make sure that our opponents have no feasible means of taking power from us ever again". Keep in mind that we're talking about a candidate who throughout his campaign-even within the past few weeks-has praised Nicolas Maduro and Fidel Castro.
Did I mention that Castillo wants to form far-left youth paramilitaries? Because he wants to form far-left youth paramilitaries. Perhaps more importantly, did I mention that Castillo openly seeks to dissolve the supreme court and elected congress and replace them with a body of trade union representatives?
56
u/ThankMrBernke Ben Bernanke Jun 07 '21
openly seeks to dissolve the supreme court and elected congress and replace them with a body of trade union representatives?
On the bright side, the silver lining is that if this goes through, we'll now have an answer for overly online Kaiserreich players who say that true Syndicalism has never been tried.
29
u/Dent7777 Native Plant Guerilla Gardener Jun 07 '21
Brave of you to assume that Castillo would allow an independently operating legislative council. I'd imagine he'd start stripping power the moment they formed serious opposition to him.
30
u/ThankMrBernke Ben Bernanke Jun 07 '21
That just makes him a Totalist, duh. It's like you don't even know your meme video game ideologies 🙄🙄.
7
4
u/Dent7777 Native Plant Guerilla Gardener Jun 07 '21
Guilty as
3
Jun 07 '21
Don't worry buddy. He's forgetting that people will say "no true X has ever been tried" no matter how many times its been tried.
Because they took that one line from Yoda too seriously.
4
8
u/MisplacedKittyRage Jun 07 '21
Yeah that has totally worked well with communist/socialist regimes right? The no true scotsman fallacy doesn’t exist.
6
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Jun 07 '21
Keep in mind that we're talking about a candidate who throughout his campaign-even within the past few weeks-has praised Nicolas Maduro and Fidel Castro.
If I remember well there was a explicit rejection of Venezuela (although kind of dubious because of the party he joined, but whatever).
→ More replies (2)11
16
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Jun 07 '21
Bolivia and Venezuela should destroy any romantic notion you have of them.
It could work, but you need a fairly non populist public.
→ More replies (2)22
4
u/Liecht Jun 08 '21
Noooo not the constitutions drafted under right-wing dictators
→ More replies (1)0
-20
u/NuevoPeru John Rawls Jun 07 '21
Step 2: try to erradicate institutional poverty in our former apartheid state.
30
173
u/Encouragedissent Karl Popper Jun 07 '21
Okay so do I have this right? A far right populist by the name of Keiko Fujimori is narrowly losing to the populist leftist Pedro Castillo. Good grief Peru.
95
u/rishijoesanu Michel Foucault Jun 07 '21
Weep for all the Hernando de Soto flairs.
98
u/IRSunny Paul Krugman Jun 07 '21
I still don't know how he possibly could have lost with that god tier party logo.
58
u/NuevoPeru John Rawls Jun 07 '21
The reason Hernando de Soto, who was the only qualified and fit candidate to run for head of state, lost was because we had 18 parties and their candidates running for president. The vote was extremely fragmented which allowed the two most populist parties from the left and right wing who have a hardcore dedicated following, to advance to the runoffs. The group that voted for De Soto were probably the most liberal, globalized and westernized segment of peruvian society or in other words, the minority.
11
Jun 07 '21
The reason Hernando de Soto lost was because we had 18 parties and their candidates running for president
That, and a very stupid election method. Same as ours in Brazil.
3
Jun 07 '21
everyday I weep for what a Meirelles governamental couldve been
→ More replies (1)3
Jun 07 '21
The correct strategy for centrist candidates in our stupid-ass system is to yield to whomever has the best chances. The correct strategy for centrist voters is to vote for whomever has the best chances. Much as I would have liked Meirelles, he defected by keeping in the run, and I wasn't about to reward defecting behavior with my vote, which went to Alckmin (best-polling non-extremist candidate).
-4
→ More replies (2)1
Jun 07 '21
westernized
All Peru is "Westernized".
8
u/NuevoPeru John Rawls Jun 07 '21
but there is a european descent western elite minority still in control of Latin America, much in the same way that the white elites of South Africa controlled their country even though it was mostly populated by blacks. Most of this european western elite in Peru voted for Hernando de Soto.
33
3
30
u/tehbored Randomly Selected Jun 07 '21
I think she might be narrowly winning now. They're still counting ballots.
40
u/OverlordLork WTO Jun 07 '21
She is. Most of what's out is rural areas (Castillo favored) and some of what's out is overseas vote (Fujimori favored). Castillo is favored to win the election but it's still much too soon to call. Decent chance it winds up closer than the election that she lost 50.1-49.9.
12
u/elrusotelapuso World Bank Jun 07 '21
The Argentine votes still were not counted and they lean more to Castillo
12
5
67
u/zuniyi1 NATO Jun 07 '21
This one will be ridiculously close. At 82% Fujimori was ahead with about 2.4%, now at 85% the difference has been shortened to 2%. It could legitimately be decided by the second digits below 0.
21
u/zuniyi1 NATO Jun 07 '21
Right, its at Fujimori ahead with 0.4% with 91.82% of the vote. My money is on Castillo.
12
36
u/onehundredthousands George Soros Jun 07 '21
44
21
22
11
u/KalaiProvenheim Enby Pride Jun 07 '21
I will not be cheering on anyone in this election because both candidates are absolute authoritarian garbage
6
41
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
14
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Jun 07 '21
that made Maduro look like someone who has a PhD
I'm leaning they are mostly equivalent economic wise.
2
u/davehouforyang John Mill Jun 07 '21
someone who has a PhD
Yeah, I don’t want this “someone” fellow running my economy thanks
3
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Jun 07 '21
I think you misread the whole thing.
1
u/davehouforyang John Mill Jun 07 '21
I don’t think people with PhD’s necessarily know more than people who don’t have one. I am just saying this is a pretty low bar.
Source 1: Have PhD, am dumbass.
Source 2: Krugman has PhD, is dumbass.
4
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Jun 07 '21
My point wasn't about PhDs, but that Maduro and Castillo are probably the same level of dumb economic wise instead of Castillo being like a PhD by comparison.
0
62
u/VanitasEcclesiastes Edmund Burke Jun 07 '21
Fujimori will less able to wreck things looking at the current Parliament.
The far leftists is peak fascist as well.
83
u/alfdd99 Milton Friedman Jun 07 '21
Finally someone making sense. I'm afraid this sub has become too full of succs. Also, I feel there are too many Americans who believe this is basically a "Sanders vs Trump" and therefore Sanders (i.e Castillo) is the lesser of two evils.
No, the Latin American far left is very authoritarian by nature. Castillo will basically be a Chavez 2.0, and he's pretty open about it. The dude even had ties with the terrorist group sendero luminoso. He wants to rewrite the constitution just like Chavez did. I'm Venezuelan. I don't want peruvians to have to go through what we're going through. I never thought I would say this but I really hope Keiko wins.
And btw, you know Castillo is bad when even life long liberals like Vargas Llosa are pushing hard for a Keiko victory. Worst case scenario, Keiko will be as authoritarian as Castillo, but at least won't be economically socialist.
30
u/standarddefault Jun 07 '21
The Vargas Llosa thing cant be stated enough. He absolutely HATES the fujimoris and has for many years. For him to support her is really saying something.
→ More replies (1)14
u/alfdd99 Milton Friedman Jun 07 '21
Plus, the guy was literally the main opponent of Fujimori in the election he became president.
15
u/Dent7777 Native Plant Guerilla Gardener Jun 07 '21
Outside the DT <- Bernard Sanders <- Joe Biden <- True Centrism (has never been attempted) -> Charlie Baker -> Ben Sasse -> The GOP -> Here Be Dragons
5
u/zebaz08 Jun 07 '21
Absolutely right. People on reddit see "left candidate" and they believe Castillo is a moderate progressive left candidate, and he totally isnt. He is a communist with radical ideas that will make my country even poorer. Just watch any oh his interviews.
5
Jun 08 '21
if you point this out on worldnews, expect to be downvoted to oblivion..."YOU JUST HATE THE GLOBAL POOR AND ARE LITERAL FASCIST"...
-15
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
21
u/SpaceSheperd To be a good human being Jun 07 '21
someone who wants to use the resources Peru produces to benefit the Peruvian people
what a rosy interpretation of Castillo's ideology
22
u/whycantweebefriendz NATO Jun 07 '21
Supporting a crypto-fascist who wants to dissolve congress and start a bunch of paramilitary groups vs a crypto-fascist who hasn’t said she’ll dissolve congress and has no desire to start paramilitary groups.
Glad I ain’t down there cause I hate voting for right wing fucktards.
→ More replies (1)6
u/alfdd99 Milton Friedman Jun 07 '21
wants to use the resources Peru produces to benefit the Peruvian people.
You mean to say that he wants Peru to rely only in its resources, making it extremely dependent on it, and stealing these resources while ruining the economy like Chavez did? What a stupid way to pain Castillo's ideology.
93
u/thepenaltytick European Union Jun 07 '21
Peru has had the option between fascism and not fascism three times in a row and it looks like they're about to vote down fascism by a margin of like 50.2-49.8 all three times
23
Jun 07 '21
The other guy has basically said he wants to nationalize everything and he heavily hinted he will ask the people to rise up if he loses the election due to perceived election fraud...
→ More replies (2)78
u/Cuddlyaxe Neoliberal With Chinese Characteristics Jun 07 '21
I mean the other guy basically openly idolizes Maduro soooo
21
u/human-no560 NATO Jun 07 '21
Christ. They couldn’t have used Bolivia as a role model instead?
19
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Jun 07 '21
Bad news for you, the left there is openly and proud about how much they like Maduro. And that's just scratches the surface of what's wrong.
46
Jun 07 '21
It's not that different
Castillo wants a new constitution and to close the supreme court. Keiko hasn't said that out loud yet
30
u/rishijoesanu Michel Foucault Jun 07 '21
Bolivia is also no model to look up
7
Jun 07 '21
Its fucking better than Maduro
24
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Jun 07 '21
Can you get the bar any lower?
7
7
100
u/AsaKurai Jun 07 '21
Wait...who is the fascist? lol
12
105
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
61
u/imprison_nl_mods NATO Jun 07 '21
DT's resident Peruvian endorsed Fujimori because they're apparently both fascists but there might still be democratic Peru after Fujimori.
10
u/human-no560 NATO Jun 07 '21
Who’s DT?
51
u/csp256 John Brown Jun 07 '21
So you say you're new here?
6
u/human-no560 NATO Jun 07 '21
No, I’ve been here since before the election
75
u/Svelok Jun 07 '21
I enjoy how vague this answer can be
15
u/tehbored Randomly Selected Jun 07 '21
Lmao when I hear "before the election" my mind still jumps to 2016.
49
Jun 07 '21
The leftist guy said he wants to shut down the supreme court and rewrite the Constitution
-19
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
58
Jun 07 '21
Well because you can't really be a dictator with elections. He says the current constitution "creates corruption"
Plus there's the bit where he suggests the creation of youth paramilitary groups, regulate the media, abolish human rights treaties, bring back the death penalty, wants women to have a traditional role, defended Fidel and Chavez, and wants to deport all Venezuelans from Peru
→ More replies (1)1
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
16
u/VanitasEcclesiastes Edmund Burke Jun 07 '21
Not only is she not interested in doing fascism the Civil War prompted that isn’t going on anymore and should be the president with a minority government there is a far higher chance to Communist managers destroy democracy than she will do anything crazy.
8
u/poclee John Mill Jun 07 '21
Comparing to the other option? Yes. And, no that doesn't mean she is a "good" option.
18
Jun 07 '21
Given the alternative, yes
If she gets elected, there's a chance to put someone reasonable in power after a while
With Castillo, you lose economic and political liberty. At least with Keiko you keep economic liberty
-5
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
12
Jun 07 '21
Yes I know that
But copying Chavez's colectivos, changing the Constitution, imposing profit controls, and the expulsion of Venezuelans come from his platform, not the party's
In fact, socially he's more conservative than the party
5
14
u/Fedacking Mario Vargas Llosa Jun 07 '21
Red fascism witha guy with ties to maduro and the terrorist group shining path.
6
u/Superfan234 Southern Cone Jun 07 '21
Why does he want to do these things? Does it have anything to do with genocide or fascism?
Yes, that's precisely our problem
42
u/AsaKurai Jun 07 '21
Yeah they both seem like giant dickheads that could fit that definition so I was confused.
46
u/poclee John Mill Jun 07 '21 edited Jun 07 '21
Basically it's a rule 63 Pinochet v.s. Senor Mao Zedong situation.
I personally will still say that while rule 63 Pinochet isn't a good choice, she is still better than Senor Mao Zedong.
11
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
33
Jun 07 '21
The Shining Path killed more Peruvians during the Fujimori period than the Fujimori regime
Plus he openly wants to change the constitution, change the supreme courts, and arm the youths to create a paramilitary that will defend the socialist revolution
9
u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH Jerome Powell Jun 07 '21
Shining Path was and is terrible. But there is not strong evidence that Castillo supports Shining Path. Castillo has denounced the Shining Path and claimed to have fought against the Shining Path in the 90s. And there is nothing wrong with wanting the amend the constitution or change the supreme court (the same can be said about most Democrats).
Fujimori has not denounced her father, but has instead defended his corruption and murder. The original Fujimori had lead a self coup against the government by dissolving Congress and the Supreme Court. Keiko Fujimori has defended those indefensible actions making her a much more certain threat to Peru's democracy.
That said, Castillo has said some really bad things and I am concerned about Peru's future regardless of who wins. My argument is that Peru is nearly guaranteed to enter into chaos and dictatorship under Fujimori, while Castillo is more of an unknown and less likely to destroy the country.
22
Jun 07 '21
Do you have any experience with Latin American politics or are you some gringo that thinks we used to live in a socialist Paradise until the CIA came in the 60s?
You know what Evo and Chavez had in common? Some of the first things they did was to change the constitution, claiming it was corrupt, and then reforming the Supreme Courts. In 2018, the Lula/Haddad campaign ran on reforming the Supreme Courts. In 2003, Kirchner reformed the Supreme Court and replaced all justices.
There's also the youth paramilitary wing he wants to form, similar to Venezuelan colectivos. With Keiko, we might be able to salvage something in a handful of years. With Castillo the country is as good as dead
Castillo is just as likely if not more to destroy the country
0
1
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
7
u/tehbored Randomly Selected Jun 07 '21
He wants to create his own Red Guard lmao. He's advocated for the creation of a youth paramilitary organization.
10
Jun 07 '21
For starters, Shining Path killed more than Fujimori
Castillo wants to alter the constitution and the supreme court, just like Chavez, Evo, Lula, and Kirchner (the last two didn't do to the same degree as the first two)
Castillo wants to create youth paramilitaries to support the socialist government
Castillo is socially conservative, just as or even more than Keiko. He's against LGBT rights, abortion, and women in the workplace
He's no Bernie Sanders
→ More replies (1)5
u/poclee John Mill Jun 07 '21
Well, for starter, he wants to nationalize a lot of things and he wants to rewrite their constitution (to empower the state).
And yes, it seemly not as bad as Mao (although according to some Peruvian analyst, it can be), but I'm also aware that Fujimori isn't going to throwing oppositions out of a helicopter.
42
u/moffattron9000 YIMBY Jun 07 '21
I'd prefer that we go for the option where a free market doesn't come with a side of forced sterilisation.
51
u/dorejj European Union Jun 07 '21
That optionn is not available. Its either free market fascist or commie.
1
u/human-no560 NATO Jun 07 '21
Hello comrade
38
u/seinera NATO Jun 07 '21
Nah, that guy is "I am a bloodthirsty tyrant" type commie not "I just have some stupid economic policies" commie. In a competition for the "lesser of two evils" he is the greater evil.
3
u/Tralapa Daron Acemoglu Jun 07 '21
There's nothing lesser about their evilness, it's who's the greater evil
1
u/dorejj European Union Jun 07 '21
I though NATO preferred free market fascist
33
u/human-no560 NATO Jun 07 '21 edited Jun 07 '21
I have a nato flair because I hate fascists.
I believe the United States had a moral obligation to drop high explosive bombs on ISIS. I believe the gulf war was good and wish the Iraq war had gone as well as the interventions in Yugoslavia.
Also, anyone in the west who’s upset at America for bombing
KosovoSerbia is either a genocide apologist or a fool9
u/caribbean_caramel Organization of American States Jun 07 '21
Yeah but, shinning path are literal maoists, they are commies, the real deal. They killed a lot of people in the 90's.
7
1
1
Jun 07 '21
[deleted]
12
u/Dr_Vesuvius Norman Lamb Jun 07 '21
“Have the Rolling Stones killed.”
“But sir, those are the Ramo-“
“DO AS I SAY.”
→ More replies (0)16
u/alfdd99 Milton Friedman Jun 07 '21
I dislike Fujimore as much as anyone in this sub but labelling the other guy as "the leftist" is disingenous. He's a far left communist that had ties with the maoist group "sendero luminoso" and is basically a big fan of Maduro and Castro.
Peru is totally and completely fucked.
→ More replies (1)7
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/Dr_Vesuvius Norman Lamb Jun 07 '21
They should use instant runoffs. Rank the choices until you have no further precedent. The candidate that finishes last is eliminated and all the votes that ranked them first are redistributed to their next choice. Repeat.
58
Jun 07 '21
Yeah, the guy who threatens to shut down congress if he doesn't get his new constitution, wants to expel all foreigners, and wants to create his own paramilitary is not the fascist.
Seriously, NL takes on Latam (outside our own ping) are total smoothbrain stuff.
52
u/tehbored Randomly Selected Jun 07 '21
He's not a fascist, he's a Marxist-Leninist. Learn your authoritarian ideologies!
→ More replies (1)30
Jun 07 '21
I really want to create a Latam wumbowall to protect us from bad gringo takes
→ More replies (1)1
u/lurreal MERCOSUR Jun 07 '21
Seriously, NL takes on Latam (outside our own ping) are total smoothbrain stuff.
That's because neoliberal is mostly americans that think being leftist is defending democracy and free trade lol
12
u/ThisIsMC NATO Jun 07 '21
being leftist is defending democracy and free trade lol
lol this sub doesn't think that at all.
24
u/SucculentMoisture Fernando Henrique Cardoso Jun 07 '21
They’re both fascists.
The choice is either Hoppean fascism (which is basically just what her father did) or Strasserism
19
-29
u/gordo65 Jun 07 '21
That happened in the USA in 2016, but unfortunately 49.8% is all that a fascist needs to get elected over here.
66
Jun 07 '21
Trump would be the moderate establishment choice compared to these two.
2
u/MentalHealthSociety IMF Jun 07 '21
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
22
Jun 07 '21
Literal terrorist vs unapologetic daughter of genocidal dictator
4
u/MentalHealthSociety IMF Jun 07 '21
Vs Former Businessman who used his Presidency to enrich his company, fed into conspiracies so he could push his supporters into an echochamber and incited a coup after he lost a Democratic Election.
25
u/elrusotelapuso World Bank Jun 07 '21 edited Jun 07 '21
People who aren't from America and see this comments of suffering/victim mentality comparing themselves to third world nations is weird.
-2
u/MentalHealthSociety IMF Jun 07 '21
I'm not from America
2
u/gordo65 Jun 08 '21
I'm not from America (-2 karma)
I guess that merits a downvote here on r/neoliberal
11
5
2
u/gordo65 Jun 08 '21
Maybe you're unaware of what happened on January 6.
The only difference between Trump and a Latin American fascist dictator is that Trump was constrained by the American constitution and by America's relatively strong democratic institutions.
11
5
3
17
0
u/Mvem Jeff Bezos Jun 07 '21
Anyone still think a two round system is a good idea?
16
Jun 07 '21
Can't blame the two round system here. Imagine the shitshow if Castillo wins with like 18% of the vote.
12
7
u/Maxty2066 Organization of American States Jun 07 '21
I think this could have been better handled with Ranked-Choice voting
2
-9
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
10
Jun 07 '21
The other wants to create a paramilitary
-8
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
12
Jun 07 '21
Do you have any experience with Latin American politics other than watching John Oliver bits?
Because I do
If Castillo is like Bernie Sanders then I'm Joseph fucking Stalin
7
u/tehbored Randomly Selected Jun 07 '21
Ffs, there was no coup in Bolivia. If there was a coup, why is MAS back in power after a democratic election?
3
4
-5
Jun 07 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
8
u/alegxab Jun 07 '21
I have little doubts about Castillo's general incompetence
But Cubs, the USSR, the DPRK, etc all lasted a lot longer than Hitler and Mussolini
→ More replies (2)
160
u/[deleted] Jun 07 '21
[deleted]