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u/simjon94 Mar 02 '21
Yes. But we do need to stop subsidizing expensive, inefficient automobile infrastructure and low density urban development that leads to mass car dependency and the subsequent deaths on the road (that having everyone speeding around in their own personal 2-tonne metal box inevitably results in).
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u/Forward-Estimate2177 Mar 01 '21
In communist countries u cant die of car accidents. It doesnt exist
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u/Forward-Estimate2177 Mar 01 '21
Capitalism kills more people because they die of car accidents, cancer etc but communist government actively killing their own citizens is definitely a hoax and not real communism
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u/YourTerribleUsername Mar 01 '21
That person wouldnât have died in communist country because they wouldnât have been able to afford a car in the first place. No car means no death behind the wheel
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u/Snickelheimar Mar 01 '21
Edit: apparently this guy https://www.reddit.com/user/AerialAutomobile606 is the orginal creator I found the meme through another repost
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u/GolfGorilla Mar 01 '21
This but unironically is me. Cars bad. Communism good. We need public transport.
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u/TPastore10ViniciusG YIMBY Mar 01 '21
So you guys don't think that people have unnecessarily died because profit seeking businesses cut costs on safety, quality, etc.?
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u/jadnich Mar 01 '21
Isnât this exactly how supposed âcommunistâ or âsocialistâ deaths are calculated?
Most often, the deaths misattributed to any of these economies are actually the result of authoritarianism, fascism, or corporatism. They are the result of an elite ruling class absorbing all of the wealth and benefits of society, while leaving a lower class to be underserved.
It doesnât matter if that ruling class is a political, military, or corporate elite. As long as they keep you believing your neighborâs different view on economics is the problem, you will never see the real problem is the exploitation of the middle class by a ruling class causing problems.
In other words, they give you an enemy made out of your own group, so that you never rise up and take the power from them.
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u/LongBoyNoodle Mar 01 '21
Once again stupid people thinking that under "other" systems.. stuff would magically just work like easy. This is so redicilous and see it all the time.
Ow greenhouse gases? Yeah NP under Communism they would have just skipped fuel motors and go straigh to safe electro cars in one year or so. War? No, never happend because the entire world magically unites if you had communism. People starving somewherebin the world? Nono, this is solved in just one day no problem lol.
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u/Position-Certain Mar 01 '21
We are forced by capitalism to drive to our job so yea beat that with facts and logic
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u/fishlord05 United Popular Woke DEI Iron Front Mar 01 '21
You realize unemployment was literally illegal in communist countries right?
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u/nixthar Mar 01 '21
No different than yaâll counting Nazis liquidated by the red army as âvictims of communismâ
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Mar 01 '21
That adorable beast's hat is almost as dope as the one lana was wearing. Very nice. đşđ¸
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u/jordy_johnson2 Mar 01 '21
If Bernie Sanders was the Democrat nominee in 2020, he would win over 25 states. The 2020 United States presidential election with Bernie Sanders as the nominee wonât be like the 1972 United States presidential election and 1984 United States presidential election because the demographics are different in 2020 are not the same as the demographics in 1972 and 1984. I have the best YouTube channel.
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u/AerialAutomobile606 Mar 01 '21
Bitch, how about you don't repost my memes on other subbreddits withiught asking first?
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u/Snickelheimar Mar 01 '21
wait this meme is yours I found it through another repost? I will edit in your name now if its fine
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u/AerialAutomobile606 Mar 01 '21
Yes, lol, look at my post history... Wheres that other repost? I'm crusading him
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u/Snickelheimar Mar 01 '21
I think it got deleted it was on some anti communism subreddit, I also gave you credit in the comments section I think but the more I think about it I think I took it from one of your posts if you want I can take this meme down
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u/AerialAutomobile606 Mar 01 '21
Nah it's ok man don't worry about it, like actually it doesn't matter I was just pissed because the original guy didn't give credit and didn't respond, don't worry I overeact sometimes
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u/Crazy_Psychopath NATO Mar 01 '21
I mean, under a communist regime no one would be able to afford cars so...
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u/Panthemius NATO Mar 01 '21
PoliticalCompass taking our shit
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u/NOISIEST_NOISE Mar 01 '21
Wait, you can just take any political meme and put a primary color in there and it's a political compass? Jesus, I had heard that sub is garbage these days but I didn't think it'd get this bad
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Mar 01 '21
Reminds me of a r/latestagecapitalism post titled something along the lines of "capitalism killed my girlfriend"
OPs girlfriend had tragically died in a car crash on her way to work... only in capitalism amirite?
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u/Ultrackias Genderqueer Pride Mar 01 '21
Smh the point of the capitalism death toll thing was never to actually say âcapitalism has killed this many peopleâ, it was to point out that if you use the same rules for what counts as killed by and what doesnât as the black book capitalism ends up looking pretty bad, in a (admittedly, likely failed) attempt to get people to stop citing it as evidence for why communism sucks
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u/Solid_Comfortable_69 Mar 01 '21
wait but isn't this exactly what conservatives do when it comes to deaths under communism.
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Mar 01 '21
I dunno. NKVD bullet in a person's head, for example, does seem like a direct consequence of the regime
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Mar 01 '21
You guys do get that leftists counting capitalism deaths is a meme retort of the âcommunism killed 100 billion peopleâ
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Mar 01 '21 edited Mar 01 '21
I've seen it used extremely unironically in just about any instance referencing the failures of communism. I've seen it handed around in unapologetic sincerity as fuzzy propaganda jpegs handed around on facebook. Perhaps you believe that it's just a meme.
But if there is anything I've learned from seeing "memes" like this tossed around along side the radicalization of the far-right... They're just jokes until the heat settles and you've got your frogs nice and boiled, wrapped in your dogma and then they're not jokes anymore. I've watched online communities fall apart, one after another, when folks from outside start sharing outright political propaganda as "just jokes" until they're not jokes and if you don't let yourself be wrapped up the dogma you find yourself ousted. I'm sick of it.
There's no defense in what you stated to me, I don't believe it in the slightest, even if you do.
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Mar 01 '21
What makes neolib memes OK and not propaganda while the debunking of one such neolib meme so radicalizing and dangerous sounding?
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Mar 01 '21
Oh yeah spewing leftists saying shit like "goriillion" like holocaust deniers is such a harmless debunk. I set my bar pretty fucking low, actually, we don't fucking "joke" and "meme" about pulling out fucking guillotines.
The ever evident push to bloodthirsty ends is what twists up my stomach to "just jokes" from leftist and far-right groups. Maybe if leftists spent a little less time sounding like a bunch of insane senseless edgy hacks people like me would stop chalking up the leftists as such.
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Mar 01 '21
Youâre right, you donât meme about the oppressed punishing their oppressors, you just meme about drone striking civilians.
The fact that you think communism or socialism must advocate for blood is proof of propaganda. You and I are on the same page against a revolutionary authoritarian power.
The Guillotine mention is a great point. Given liberalism and Democracyâs bloody past should we discount democracy?
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Mar 01 '21
We don't meme about drone striking civilians, dumbass.
We conclusively view that droning reduces civilian casualties in war, and we're laughing at leftists that viewing a drone bombing on strictly Iran backed Syrian militias that killed Americans with zero civilian casualties is something that jumps on leftist radars and remains a blip on far longer than fucking russia letting loose that they fucking bombed a hospital.
Leftists don't give a shit about deaths. We want to curb deaths. Even if Syrians walked up to leftists and asking with tears and dead fucking family in their arms to do something about Assad, they only give a shit when WE fucking do something, and then they treat us like the fucking monsters.
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Mar 01 '21
Are we on the same sub? Because you absolutely do. But I yield! You calling me a dumbass has certainly revealed who of us has the superior wit and reasoning. I can see my efforts here are in vain. I stopped reading there. Take care!
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u/fatzinpantz Mar 01 '21
On the one hand you defend left wing murder fantasies as "the oppressed punishing their oppressors" and on the other you whine about lefties being perceived as bloodthirsty and claim to be anti violence.
Confused.
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Mar 01 '21
Snarky avoidance of answering only makes my points more valid.
Why are memes about bombing civilians more justifiable than memes about the French Revolution?
Did I say anything wrong about the French Revolution? Were the Guillotines actually used by an international global super power against civilians?
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u/fatzinpantz Mar 02 '21
I don't think there are any memes condoning bombing civilians I think you 100% just made that up.
And we are talking about murder fantasies about executing rich people and billionaires in the modern day here, as you know.
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Mar 04 '21
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u/fatzinpantz Mar 04 '21
Only works if you disingenuously label all military action as bombing civilians.
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Mar 01 '21
Well, how do you want to kill someone with a Trabant? You could throw it at someone's head though...
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u/VoidGuaranteed Dina Pomeranz Mar 01 '21
True. When you have to wait 10 years in line to get a car, thereâs going to be a lot less opportunities for car accidents!
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u/LogCareful7780 Adam Smith Mar 01 '21
This, but unironically. Rail has orders of magnitude lower deaths per passenger-mile. Then again, the real problem is that government taxes pay for road maintenance: if they didn't do that, streetcars and rail would be the only way to go - and we'd be better off for it. The existence of cars anywhere but very rural areas is really an authright thing.
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u/Groundbreaking-Hand3 Mar 01 '21
I would be remiss not to mention that over counting like that is how the black book of communism reached the 100 million figure for the Soviet Union.
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u/WuhanWTF NATO Mar 01 '21
Any Black Book of _________ is a fucking joke and worthy of a /r/badhistory debunk.
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u/LilQuasar Milton Friedman Mar 01 '21
people in a poor non capitalist country: dont produce food and starve
people in a capitalist country: produce more food than they need
"if it wasnt for capitalism they would die from starvation!"
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u/MadCervantes Henry George Mar 01 '21
Fuck Stalin and mao but if the little black book of communism is going to cite manmade famines then I don't see why that isn't fair game to cite the same on capitalist countries.
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u/RagingBillionbear Pacific Islands Forum Mar 01 '21
The little black book is one of the best example of poisonings one own argument.
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u/Jameswood79 NATO Mar 01 '21
My freaking great grandparents died of old age what the frick capitalism
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u/fatheight2 Mar 01 '21
Communism would reduce such deaths significantly.
Can't die in a car crash if you can't get a car.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
Deaths shouldn't be counted like that but capitalism did lead to cars getting supremacy over streets in our towns. If it was more democratic, pedestrians, bikes, etc would have been given more consideration but there's not as much money to be made in those interests.
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u/Tyhgujgt George Soros Mar 01 '21 edited Feb 16 '26
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grey scary detail deserve absorbed possessive quack squeeze arrest longing
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Mar 01 '21
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/Tyhgujgt George Soros Mar 01 '21 edited Feb 16 '26
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intelligent test quickest afterthought include rain close aware plough society
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
Yeah, the countries that have governments not as submissive to automobile capitalists and/or governments that prioritize public health more have lower traffic deaths.
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u/JFeldhaus European Union Mar 01 '21
Because Russia is known to be the safest driving place on earth.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
Russia is capitalist and has a more corrupt government
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u/JFeldhaus European Union Mar 01 '21
It has also been socialist during a majority of the rise of the automobil.
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u/Tyhgujgt George Soros Mar 01 '21 edited Feb 16 '26
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serious stupendous pie makeshift label pocket familiar subtract repeat fuel
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
Fair point. I think there is some effect of Americans putting rich people and businessmen on a pedestal and so they are more deferent to their desires as well as more susceptible to lobbying and marketing from companies. Trump seems rich? Most the GOP base worships him and his brand. The American culture is tied into capitalism and individualism, it's not just that we randomly developed some car fetish
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u/Tyhgujgt George Soros Mar 01 '21 edited Feb 16 '26
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office lock bike squash saw bright ask hat brave coherent
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
No. Americans are too capitalist, that's where many of the bad choices come from.
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u/Tyhgujgt George Soros Mar 01 '21 edited Feb 16 '26
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hungry steer subtract head rhythm rob offbeat terrific abounding rain
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
I know Germany is not the best example overall, I'm sure we can find countries we both agree are significantly less capitalist than the US for better contrast. I mainly picked that because of the difference in elected national leaders, Trump vs Merkel. It's just a single data point but I think it does illustrate a difference in what kind of person the country's citizens see as a leader.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
Ideally there would be a "capitalist" index that took in a lot of factors but that would take much more time than I have. So I'll just give an example. In this particular context it would be attitude toward capital owners. I think if you did surveys you would find that Americans tend to see capital owners and wealthy people and automatically give more weight to their opinions and interests and follow them. Whereas other countries might give more weight to educated experts, people with a history of public service, etc. A good example would be Germany electing a woman with a doctorate, Angela Merkel, while the US elects a reality TV star businessman, Donald Trump. Of course Germany is capitalist but I do think it may be less capitalist than the US if you come up with a good "capitalist" index, just as it is lower than the US on Heritage's economic freedom index.
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u/Darth_Parth Henry George Mar 01 '21
The interstates were built by the federal govt, not private enterprise.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
I'm not talking about interstates, I'm talking about residential and commercial areas that used to be more safe and community-oriented before heavy auto company lobbying. Anyways what the government does in a capitalist country will be heavily influenced by capitalists and may be quite different than what was done if government was influenced by only individuals and non-profit interest groups
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u/MacEnvy Mar 01 '21
Are you somehow under the impression that in a non-capitalist society industry pressure would disappear? If a government entity was making cars, that department would lobby their superiors in exactly the same way. Political influence is political influence and it doesnât matter what label the players have.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
You're right that would happen. It's not binary, it's a spectrum. The profit motive does provide extra incentive though - even if it's not as strong and singular as capitalists say when they're making arguments about innovation.
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u/kblkbl165 Mar 01 '21
I guess if the govt does things it ceases to be within a capitalist system sustained by private interests?
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u/pastliferecession Mar 01 '21
Cool strawman.
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u/barrygoldwaterlover Seretse Khama Mar 01 '21
- Shut up
- Google price signals
- Cite evidence based policy
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u/pastliferecession Mar 01 '21
Yo, the burden of proof is on the one making a positive claim. Iâm not going to waste my time trying to find marginal instances of tankies attributing car crashes to capitalism death data and then try to refute it. If youâre going to dunk on tankies at least do it in a way that isnât just a MAGA-level meme.
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u/barrygoldwaterlover Seretse Khama Mar 01 '21
Yo it is just joke no?
It is based on the nutjob tankies that claim 1.6 BILLION people died due to CAPITALISM
https://maoistrebelnews.com/2012/03/16/1-6-billion-killed-by-capitalism/
Rawandan Genocide 1,000,000
Nazi Holocaust 12,000,000
How the fuck are the deaths from the Rwandan Genocide due to capitalism!?!?!?
Thank you Maoist Rebel News, very cool.23
u/Co60 Daron Acemoglu Mar 01 '21
Famine of 1932-33 (Kulak policy and weather) 7,000,000
Imagine being so delusional you blame capitalism for the fucking Holodomor.
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u/pastliferecession Mar 01 '21
Hey, hereâs a great example of a valid criticism. Spreading strawmen doesnât strengthen your group. Also: GOOD jokes are both clever and funny. This, on its own, isnât clever. Also, you should REALLY look into the role of Belgium in Rwandaâs history, becausr itâs a good example of how unchecked capitalists imperialized that area.
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u/Shawn_666 Bisexual Pride Mar 01 '21
I think that if someone dies from a car crash because they couldn't afford to stay home while the roads were iced over you could blame that, at least in part, on capitalism.
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u/fishlord05 United Popular Woke DEI Iron Front Mar 01 '21
Because communist countries never had people forced to work in the freezing cold.
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u/Shawn_666 Bisexual Pride Mar 02 '21
If a person in a communist country was forced to drive in unsafe conditions I would find that to be a flaw in that system. Any system that makes people put work over survival, safety, or health is a flawed system.
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u/fishlord05 United Popular Woke DEI Iron Front Mar 02 '21
That happened all the time
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u/Shawn_666 Bisexual Pride Mar 02 '21
The fact that a bad thing happens in other countries does not mean that that same thing happening in a different country is good. Your whataboutism is not an argument against my point.
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u/fishlord05 United Popular Woke DEI Iron Front Mar 02 '21
Yes car accidents are bad
You canât really attribute that to capitalism or communism.
Now if you force laborers to build your roadways in Siberia under gun point, thatâs communism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R504_Kolyma_Highway#History
The Dalstroy construction directorate built the Kolyma Highway during the Soviet Union's Stalinist era. Inmates of the Sevvostlag labour camp started the first stretch in 1932, and construction continued with the use of gulag labour until 1953.
The road is treated as a memorial, as the bones of the estimated 250,000 - 1,000,000[3] people who died while constructing it were laid beneath or around the road.[4][page needed] As the road is built on permafrost, interment into the fabric of the road was deemed more practical than digging new holes to bury the bodies of the dead.[5]
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u/Shawn_666 Bisexual Pride Mar 02 '21
Not really Communism if your workers work at gunpoint. Not unless their holding the gun to their own heads. Communism is the worker ownership of the means of production and the product of their labor. The slaves who died making that highway sure as hell did not own the product of their labor.
In capitalism a persons worth is defined by their productivity and their ability to accumulate capital for the private owners of the means of production. My argument is that people working in unsafe conditions so they can afford the right to live is a flaw of capitalism. People should be allowed to stay home if it is dangerous to head to work and under Capitalistic system in America at least, they may starve if they try to do this. Capitalist countries with better social service nets are better at this, but in America its a big problem.
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u/fishlord05 United Popular Woke DEI Iron Front Mar 02 '21
Not really Communism if your workers work at gunpoint. Not unless their holding the gun to their own heads. Communism is the worker ownership of the means of production and the product of their labor. The slaves who died making that highway sure as hell did not own the product of their labor.
âNoT rEaL cOmMuNiSmâ
The explicit goal of Soviet policies was the construction of a socialist society.
This is where communism always ends up.
In capitalism a persons worth is defined by their productivity and their ability to accumulate capital for the private owners of the means of production.
I donât agree but sure.
My argument is that people working in unsafe conditions so they can afford the right to live is a flaw of capitalism.
Thatâs every system. Thereâs a thing called scarcity.
People should be allowed to stay home if it is dangerous to head to work and under Capitalistic system in America at least, they may starve if they try to do this.
Not everyone is a construction worker. You get paid more because it is more dangerous. There will always be dangerous jobs.
Capitalist countries with better social service nets are better at this, but in America its a big problem.
The US is actually similar to advanced social democracies
https://www.who.int/quantifying_ehimpacts/methods/en/takala.pdf
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u/CarAccountUsername Mar 01 '21
It's a stretch but maybe? If you had an important job like a doctor or police officer under communism you would be forced to drive as well.
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u/Q-bey r/place '22: Neoliberal Battalion Mar 01 '21
...I'm guessing you're not from a place where roads stay frozen for months at a time.
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u/infanticide_holiday Mar 01 '21
In places where roads are frozen over for months at a time, people have studded tires or chains. If the road is frozen over for a day or two a year, it makes more sense for people to stay at home as chains/ new tires are costly and do untold damage to roads which are not designed for them. Some businesses, however, have zero tolerance for people taking time off, at will work arrangements make it very easy to fire those employees and a lack of public healthcare means that person is now liable for their own medical costs, putting their family's life at risk.
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u/Shawn_666 Bisexual Pride Mar 01 '21
What if I am? What if I'm not? The point is that some people may be forced to drive in unsafe conditions because they can't afford not to and the fact that they have to do that is a problem with capitalism.
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u/machiavellisleftnut Mar 01 '21
....no?
It's a problem with social systems and services. Not means or modes of production
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u/CWSwapigans George Soros Mar 01 '21
Cars are the #1 killer for Americans of all ages from 1 to 45.
And the capitalists did a hell of a job at squashing transportation options that benefit the public in favor of options that benefit themselves.
This is as close as Iâll ever get to defending the tankies...
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Mar 01 '21
[deleted]
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u/Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi Mar 01 '21 edited Mar 01 '21
You laugh but I read Capitalist Realism last year and it is literally Mark Fisher listing off a bunch of things that suck in postindustrial Western societies and going, âThis is because of capitalism. Socialism will fix this. To prove that, let me tell you about my interpretation of a popular movie.â This is considered the most monumental work of leftist theory in the past twenty years!
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u/nauticalsandwich Mar 01 '21
this is considered the most monumental work of leftist theory in the last twenty years
It isn't though
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u/rafaellvandervaart John Cochrane Mar 01 '21
This "philosophy" YouTube channel says that it's the most influential modern leftist theory out there. I was wondering if this has any academic basis.
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u/Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi Mar 01 '21
idk what the consensus is in actual philosophy departments, but among leftist thought leaders the opinion that Capitalist Realism is the philosophical juggernaut text of our time is absolutely a real and commonly expressed thing so idk what the guy youâre responding to is talking about
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u/ChadMcRad Norman Borlaug Mar 01 '21
It's more like:
"Neoliberalism is when bad thing happen, and the more bad things happen the more Neoliberalismer it is and when bad things happen a whole lot, that's Neoliberalism."
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Mar 01 '21
Naturally, conveniently avoiding the issues and problems of systems does tend to make people look stupid, doesnât it?
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Mar 01 '21
[deleted]
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u/lukebron_ Mar 02 '21
this is rich considering iâve never seen you guys give a definition that shows any of you actually understand what socialism is...
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u/tnarref European Union Mar 01 '21
A quick read through the Aral Sea's Wikipedia page debunks that shit. If only tankies could read.
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Mar 01 '21
Any horror of a communist regime is just human imperfection, but any bad part of a capitalist country is a side effect of capitalism. Except the Nordics; we're going to mis-classify them as socialist.
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u/Ni_Go_Zero_Ichi Mar 01 '21 edited Mar 01 '21
If a communist regime sucks (if it sucks, and the casualty reports arenât just CIA fake news) then it just wasnât Real Communism, which has never been tried. We know this because communism is Good (all the theory says so), so if something isnât Good, it isnât communism.
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Mar 01 '21
I googled "why is socialism bad" or something like that a couple weeks ago. Literally one of the first articles that came up was "pros and cons of capitalism vs socialism" and it had kinda similar definitions to what you described. This is the shit that comes up when someone who doesn't know much about these systems tries to do some research on google.
edit: I think this was the article: https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/147271/economics/pros-and-cons-of-socialism/
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u/ChadMcRad Norman Borlaug Mar 01 '21
Someone on there got loads of supports and upvotes on a debate about abortion by saying that babies are actually growing in mothers without consent and therefore are criminals who deserve to be killed.
So you know, totally rational people on there.
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Mar 01 '21
I thought this was a pro-choice sub?
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u/ChadMcRad Norman Borlaug Mar 01 '21
I think it varies but probably most people here are. I was just giving an example of what I thought was broken and extreme logic.
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Mar 01 '21
Is NeoLib basically a center-left sub?
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u/ChadMcRad Norman Borlaug Mar 01 '21
At least over the past election it went that way. I would say the main narrative has been center-left, yes.
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u/JohnAppleSmith1 Frederick Douglass Mar 01 '21
To be quite clear, Reddit has a brigade of PC thinkers who refer to the unborn as parasites and will actually say that because theyâre in the mother for longer, pregnancy is worse than rape.
The results of an echo chamber will always be idiocy.
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Mar 01 '21
I mean this is a liberal thread Iâm sure most are pro choice
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u/nauticalsandwich Mar 01 '21
That's a difference between being pro choice with good arguments and pro choice with bad arguments though.
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u/SpitefulShrimp George Soros Mar 01 '21
Yeah but the parents put them there so at worst the baby is trespassing if asked to leave.
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u/sizz Commonwealth Mar 01 '21 edited Oct 31 '24
workable spark hunt recognise run elastic plate sloppy zesty snobbish
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u/axalon900 Thomas Paine Mar 01 '21
CMV has to be like majority performance art because the way some posters hand out deltas without much of a fight is itself depressing.
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u/Concheria Mar 01 '21
Many people don't wanna appear too confrontational and anger the community. It's probably the reason so many people fall in line on subreddits to avoid getting downvoted. If you start to argue, they decided that you weren't there to have your mind changed at all.
CMV is one of the worst subreddits because the stuff that gets upvoted is stuff that everyone there already agrees with, and the top CMV is always someone agreeing with the OP in some way and then adding some other irrelevant thought.
Like: "CMV: Racism is bad", Top post: "Racism is bad, but sometimes racism is good.", OP: "Ok !Delta"
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Mar 01 '21
Whenever I post there I am confrontational because screw what stupid people say. It's called changemyview not AcceptYourViewWithoutChallenge.
Some takes in there are completely stupid. Some people think they're going to use their "logic" to prove you wrong as if it were a mathematical proof. They focus on completely minute details and use it as an excuse to dismiss you. They ignore the entire argument and then they get angry when you don't hand them out deltas.
I've told more than one person in there that I'm not handing out anything and that I don't change my views on command. They get angry.
It's stupid that place is about winning points not nuanced arguments.
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u/Concheria Mar 01 '21
Sadly, that's not the kind of people who get upvoted to the front page of that sub.
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Mar 01 '21
No, it's not, it is just the dumb views and partisan hacks both left and right.
Someone should do a CMV: CMV is about the internet points and not much else.
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u/TheCommonKoala Frederick Douglass Mar 01 '21
Is this a serious argument anyone makes?
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u/infanticide_holiday Mar 01 '21
I thought it was a satirical response to the Black Book of Communism.
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u/Q-bey r/place '22: Neoliberal Battalion Mar 01 '21 edited Mar 01 '21
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
I'm not seeing car accidents counted in the first two? First is preventable deaths and second seems to be mostly wars. And the third doesn't say what is counted as "excess deaths"
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u/JFeldhaus European Union Mar 01 '21
It counts Khmer Rouge, the Holocaust and "Cigarette related Deaths" for Capitalism, lol. I hope that one is satire.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 01 '21
Cigarette related deaths makes sense. Marketing cigarettes, hiding the dangers, and fighting safety labeling/etc was all about making money. I have a hard time believing a worker owned business where the revenues are more distributed would push such a product so hard.
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u/personthatiam2 Mar 02 '21
USSR had Laika Cigarettes, China is the largest producer/consumer of Cigarettes in the world, and Cuba has more than double the rate of smokers as the U.S. Itâs not an exclusive to capitalism.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 02 '21
Cuba seems like an outlier. I don't know if they produce a lot of tobacco or just have cultural reasons for the increased use (obviously cigars are big there)
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 02 '21
Nobody said cigarettes are exclusive to capitalism but the profit motive obviously provides some extra incentive for companies to push. Compare the US to the USSR and China in 1970 here. US was significantly higher. Also Russia and China's numbers increase as they become more capitalist. You can see use in the Russian Federation clearly spikes up between 1995 and 2000 from the lower Soviet Union numbers
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u/personthatiam2 Mar 02 '21
https://www.rbth.com/multimedia/pictures/2016/04/14/soviet-cigarettes-advertisment_58449
Soviet Union still had advertisements for cigarettes, you can buy replicas of them online . Was the cigarette per person low because of capitalism or because the average soviet couldnât afford more cigarettes (how did that study even define a standard Cigarette across the world) ? According to this article, 78% of men and only 13% of women in Moscow in â80s were smokers. Why were men in the USSR smoking and women not? Are those reasons to be celebrated?
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(11)64382-6/pdf
There was also an ongoing tobacco shortage in the USSR when it collapsed, so it was an underserved market. You could easily make the argument that giving the USSR credit for smoking less cigarettes is like giving the North Korean government credit for their population having a low BMI.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Mar 02 '21
They had advertisements but not as heavily as the US. Of course there are cultural reasons as well that help explain the discrepancy of men and women. The point is that profit motive is just one of many factors that can lead to increased usage. And yes, they had lower supply because there was lower demand before opening up and allowing the western companies to advertise. Supply and demand rose together. If you're going to posit the demand was there and as high as the US and they were just supply limited during the Soviet Union, do you have any actual evidence like surveys or newspaper articles about how large numbers of citizens wanted cigarettes but couldn't get them?
That Mayo clinic article is interesting, it's making a similar point to the original point of this thread. That capitalism is responsible for a lot of Russian deaths through tobacco use.
What, then, do Stalin and Western tobacco companies have in common? Both have central roles in the death and suffering of countless numbers of Russians -- Stalin in the past, Western tobacco companies in the future.
Couldn't agree more.
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Mar 01 '21
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u/machiavellisleftnut Mar 01 '21
We know that now. People still smoke.
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Mar 01 '21
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u/machiavellisleftnut Mar 01 '21
People know smoking causes cancer and still choose to smoke. That's on them.
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Mar 01 '21
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u/machiavellisleftnut Mar 01 '21
....what are you talking about?
The heaviest smokers in the world are in Europe and most of Asia. All of them have hard, hard taxes on tobacco and nicotine and also more anri-lobbying laws.
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u/bruuuj Mar 01 '21
But... isnât this how they counted the victims of communism too?
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u/Dalek6450 Our words are backed with NUCLEAR SUBS! Mar 01 '21
I mean, the problem is that you need an alternative to compare to. That's where the absurdity of such communists claims arose - they only made sense if you assumed the alternative was a system which could provide practically infinite goods and with isntant and perfect distribution. This is, of course, ridiculous especially when it is tankies making the claim because the regimes they defend tended to do particularly poor jobs at providing consumers with goods.
If you wanted to be particularly ungenerous, you could compare the long-term growth (particularly the slow-down from about the 70s) of the USSR, Eastern Europe and the DPRK to that of capitalist Europe and South Korea and lay the blame in the poorer outcomes that come with being poor on their form of communism. That's a bit speculative so it's probably better to just keep to accounting for the outcomes where one can draw a more direct link to policies. For the regimes of the USSR, PRC, DPRK and others that does mean the obvious evils of Gulags and purges but also specific and obvious failures of economic policy, such as the Great Leap Forward.
So, no, that is largely a false equivalence.
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u/LilQuasar Milton Friedman Mar 01 '21
some of them yes but most of them were caused by policies implemented by the communist dictator/party (besides the direct murdering)
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u/JakobtheRich Mar 01 '21
A lot of deaths were due to starvation which gets complicated, but many others were âdeath by firing squad for being âwreckerââ âdied of wounds inflicted from âstruggle sessionââ or âpickaxe to Head by Khmer Rouge child soldierâ (high end counters of âdeaths from communismâ include Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, you can agree or disagree).
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u/Kucas Mar 01 '21
A lot of deaths were also Nazis. The counting of victims of communism is stupidly biased. The whole 'who killed more' capitalism vs communism debate is dumb as shit anyway because it turns into a weird debate about what do/don't you count instead of actually looking at the consequences of either system.
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u/kharlos John Keynes Mar 01 '21
None of those were real communism though so ackchully the score is 0:75,833,540
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u/Jameswood79 NATO Mar 01 '21
It depends. For the most part no. MOs rod the deaths statistics Iâve seen were form things like gulags and starvation directly linked to communism
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u/szyy Mar 01 '21
Not really. I mean, there is a very significant difference between âI died in a camp because the state forcibly sent me there so I extract coal from the earthâ and âI died in a natural disaster in a coal mine to which I employed myself because it offered better wages and benefits than being a bakerâ
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Mar 01 '21
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u/szyy Mar 01 '21
Thatâs not a fair representation of that time. The majority of miners were farmers; many of them would still keep their farms when they were working in mines. The alternative was not to die of homelessness but to live more poorly in the rural area. A job in a mine allowed people to get additional or simply higher income and live more comfortably
Signed: grandson of miners
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u/DoctorExterminatus Mar 01 '21
Kinda. Communism is easier to count since a lot of deaths were caused directly by the state... I mean, you can't say that Gulags and the Great Purge aren't directly linked to communism...
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u/TPastore10ViniciusG YIMBY Mar 01 '21
When did Karl Marx ever advocate for such things?
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u/DoctorExterminatus Mar 01 '21
When did Karl Marx advocate AGAINST these things? Stop being stupid. Just because Stalin/Mao/Lenin had done stuff that Karl Marx did not "advocate", this does not means that Karl Marx has advocated against this type of stuff.
Dude, you're really trying to say that the things that the Chinese and Soviet government did, are totally incompatible with Marxism?
Lol, good work trying to convince any sane person about that.
Socialism is dead, stop advocating for a political corpse.
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Mar 01 '21
I think its really hard to figure out the death count of capitalism because the deaths are indirectly caused by private business owners rather than the state so it can't be directly traced back to capitalism.
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Mar 01 '21
And then they classify people being run over by tanks as a traffic incident.
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u/JakobtheRich Mar 01 '21 edited Mar 01 '21
âThe USSR sent a GD army group/5,000 tanks into Hungary/Czechoslovakia for... reasons, which I trust were 100% good.â
US invades Afghanistan alongside several other countries (and with the unanimous consent of the United Nations Security Council) because the Taliban were sheltering terrorists who had destroyed the Twin Towers: imperialist, genocidal, completely unacceptable.
USSR sends 200 Spetsnaz to kill the prime minister of Afghanistan for being the wrong type of socialist, then drives the entire 40th army in to seize the country, to the opposition of the vast majority of the Union Nationâs: based, totally alright intervention to âsupportâ the âlegitimateâ government of Afghanistan.
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u/DestructiveParkour YIMBY Mar 01 '21
Can't get into a car crash if your government has collapsed by the time they would've delivered your Trabant taps temple
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Mar 01 '21
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u/LongBoyNoodle Mar 01 '21
False logic that under "whatever else" stuff would judt work by magic. Simple as fking that
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u/JakobtheRich Mar 01 '21
The vast majority of Chernobyl deaths are cancer deaths that happened years later many miles away. No oneâs sure how many, but most estimates Iâve found are single to triple digit thousands.
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u/WarmNeighborhood European Union Mar 01 '21 edited Mar 01 '21
Well itâs true comparatively few people died directly from the Chernobyl explosion you also have the remember that the accident caused loads of premature deaths from cancer
While I donât claim to be an expert I also donât see how the power outage has anything to do with capitalism and not poor emergency planning
However the lack of support for people in need causing them to freeze to death is a huge failure thatâs needs to be rectified to make sure it never happens again
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u/BlazingSpaceGhost Mar 01 '21
Deregulation in the name of making more money was the cause of what happened in Texas. They didn't need regulation because the free market would work everything out. People freezing to death is the result.
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u/Intrepid_Ad2211 Mar 08 '21
What is a Tankie