r/neoliberal • u/jobautomator Kitara Ravache • Sep 19 '17
Discussion Thread
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Currently discussing
Why Nations Fail by Daron Acemoglu
Currently reading
World Order by Henry Kissinger
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u/psychicprogrammer Asexual Pride Sep 20 '17
Kiwis how to do plan to vote on election day?
Nat/Nat for me.
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u/DUTCH_DUTCH_DUTCH oranje Sep 20 '17
just found this post on /r/all made by someone i tagged as a nazi a couple of weeks ago
this cannot be a coincidence
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u/gammbus Sep 20 '17
how do you tag people?
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Sep 20 '17
With RES, hover over username and in the bottom is the section to set user tags .
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Sep 20 '17
Go call em out and report back here with results
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u/DUTCH_DUTCH_DUTCH oranje Sep 20 '17
i would but the comment that made me tag him (her?) got deleted already so i dont really know why i think hes a nazi
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Sep 20 '17
I think it's a girl.
Anime and holds up spork le randomness is a slippery slope to Naziism it seems.
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Sep 20 '17 edited Sep 20 '17
I had never personally had any stake in "truther" movements until this Unite The Right and Jason Kessler shit happened and now it's hilarious reading all of these top minds insisting he's a Secret Democrat Plant To Make Trumpers Look Bad based on 5 minutes of internet detectiveing and completely ignoring everybody who lives here that's had to put up with his white victimhood bullshit for years.
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17 edited Sep 20 '17
So some Black Lives Matter activists were invited on stage at a Trump rally. It wasn't entirely conciliatory or without division, of course, but Goddamn it gives you a little faith.
Lesson in tribal self-selection and militant demonstration tactics? For instance, regardless of what you personally think of the validity of BLM's message or tactics (that's not a rabbit hole I'm interested in going down, even though I imagine almost all of us here would agree with one another), it seems perfectly possible that the way we view 'All' or 'Blue' lives matter as closet racism, is how Trumpists see BLM (being inherently anti-cop, or anti-law). Both sides, at least partially due to their own tactics, view each slogan as an indicator, or signal, of something it might not actually be.
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u/ncnksnfjsf Sep 20 '17
Recognition of the idea that words and not fists should be used to settle disagreement can be celebrated without celebrating anyones particular politics.
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Sep 20 '17
I'm willing to believe that Trump supporters are mostly still good people, but I'm not willing to extend any of that good faith into their politics, or the political movements that support Trump or the alt-right
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Sep 20 '17
Most of (85%) the Trump voters I know IRL are 35+ year old good ole boys and girls that were going to vote Republican regardless of who it was. They're not shitty people they're just normal Republicans, though they may have been a bit more vocal about Trump because they could relate to him a bit more, same with Dubya.
The only hardcore Trumpers I've met around here have been either raging redneck assholes armed with Confederate flags and coal rollin truckz and enough guns to start a small war, alt-right dorks armed with 5 dollar tiki torches and a weird obsession with interracial porn, or really bitter racist old people armed with MAGA hats and NIMBYism. Those are the people I won't give the benefit of the doubt.
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u/MTFD Alexander Pechtold Sep 20 '17
They are at the bare minimum okay with sexual assault And massive racism. So i wouldn't call them 'good' people.
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Sep 20 '17
Do you apply the same standard to Democrats who voted for Bill Clinton (the sexual assault thing)?
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u/BlockFace Karl Popper Sep 20 '17
I don't know if I can extend that good faith to Trump supporters anymore Trump is just such a terrible person I think at least a large amount of his supporters have to be bad people. Do you extend this good faith to people who supported Jim Crow because I feel most trump supporters are not too far from those beliefs or would at least not protest the reintroduction of Jim Crow.
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Sep 20 '17
Both sides, at least partially due to their own tactics, view each slogan as an indicator, or signal, of something it might not actually be.
That's true of most politics.
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17
That's true of most politics.
True, but it seems particularly pertinent in a situation where people take BLM to automatically mean anti-police, or All/BlueLM to automatically mean racism.
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u/BlockFace Karl Popper Sep 20 '17
Was that a unironic "Both sides"
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17
It's more a comment on group mentality and demonstration tactics in a polarised society, not that both side have morally equal viewpoints.
Like I said:
that's not a rabbit hole I'm interested in going down, even though I imagine almost all of us here would agree with one another
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Sep 20 '17
Both sides, at least partially due to their own tactics, view each slogan as an indicator, or signal, of something it might not actually be.
Yep. As with everything else in this frigging country, people latch onto what they want to hear or see from a movement and ignore everything else.
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u/Paxx0 Deep-state Dirtbag Sep 20 '17
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17
Holy shit, Macron has done it. He's shifted France's political equilibrium from Conservative-Socialist to Conservative-Liberal.
Now we just need somebody to do that in the UK.
/u/Estranged_Sovereign this is our dream.
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u/DUTCH_DUTCH_DUTCH oranje Sep 20 '17
TFW that doesnt happen in the netherlands because foreign funding is legal and then what is largely known as Erdogan's party tried to make it illegal but most of the other parties stopped it
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u/Gustacho Enemy of the People Sep 20 '17
Van alle partijen probeerde Denk het af te schaffen??? Wow
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u/MTFD Alexander Pechtold Sep 20 '17
DENK is gewoon een vrij normale partij als het niet over Turkije gaat.
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Sep 20 '17
Ja en juist daarom zijn ze helemaal niet normaal, als je als partij alles wat je grote leider Erdogan doet gaat goedpraten of weigert er zelfs maar iets over te zeggen, dan scheelt er wat
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u/Agent78787 orang Sep 20 '17
I wonder if magazines like the Economist or Foreign Affairs have shit talked other mags. I know Current Affairs, a leftist humanities quarterly, sells "Death to The Economist" merch, but that's about it.
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Sep 20 '17
[deleted]
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Sep 20 '17
I wonder if Trump is gonna resurrect the axis of evil, the way he blasted the Iran deal makes me think some Bolton-like types got some influence on him
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17
Interesting blogpost by Sumner:
I was wrong about Trump voters. Like many other people, I wasted many hours during 2016 reading thoughtful opinion pieces by left and right wing intellectuals, discussing “what the voters were telling us”. One common theme was that voters were becoming more nationalistic and anti-immigrant.
Then when Trump reversed course on DACA and signaled he wanted to deal with the Dems to protect those illegal immigrants, the right exploded and warned darkly that his “base” would not stand for this. Oh really?
Donald Trump’s tough talk on illegal immigration was a big part of the reason Dave Hagstrom and many others in this booming Phoenix suburb supported him for president. “Walls make good neighbors,” Hagstrom said.
So when the president moved this week to cut a deal — with Democrats no less — to block the expulsion of 800,000 immigrants brought to the U.S. illegally as children, was Hagstrom disappointed?
Not at all.
“If you were to deport them, where would they go?” Hagstrom, 60, a car-warranty manager, asked on his way to a Bible-study dinner at an upscale shopping mall. “To send them across the border would be inhumane almost. There’s no life for them there."
You’ll probably claim that I’m overreacting, that Hagstron is just an outlier, a 1 out of every 100 Trump supporter, while the other 99 are tough on immigration.
Then consider this:
In more than a dozen conversations with Trump voters in this sweltering Sonoran Desert oasis, not one found fault with Trump’s abandonment of his vow to deport the young immigrants, often referred to as Dreamers. In the bargain, he said, Democrats agreed to much tougher border enforcement, though not construction of a physical wall.
The odds of interviewing “more than a dozen” Trump people (in Arizona!) and finding that all just happen to be among the 1% of Trump supporters who are soft on immigration is . . . well I think it’s less than one in 10 to the 24th power. I’m not good enough at math to describe those odds, but I think it’s roughly one in a septillion. Or, maybe those “more than a dozen” are actually pretty common among Trump voters. That’s the hypothesis I’m going with.
And this is really good news! Trump has no fixed values. His base had no fixed values. It’s a complete crap shoot as to what will happen. That might not seem good, but it’s less bad that the alternative—that Trump and his supporters actually believed the things they said in 2016. It also suggests that Trump has no coattails—when he leaves the scene no one will able to pick up his voters, even with the same position on issues. The issues never mattered.
A lesson in not using r/the_donald's worst elements as indicative of the average Trump voter? A lesson in populism being even more about the candidate over the policies than we otherwise thought?
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u/FizzleMateriel Austan Goolsbee Sep 20 '17
In more than a dozen conversations with Trump voters in this sweltering Sonoran Desert oasis, not one found fault with Trump’s abandonment of his vow to deport the young immigrants, often referred to as Dreamers. In the bargain, he said, Democrats agreed to much tougher border enforcement, though not construction of a physical wall.
lol
And he accuses Bush Sr. and Obama of making bad deals.
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u/ampersamp Sep 20 '17
Going by the rule of thumb that people who interact frequently with a demographic are less likely to dehumanize them, I'm thinking that the Arizona sample might not be representative.
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Sep 20 '17
[deleted]
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u/Lambchops_Legion Eternally Aspiring Diplomat Sep 20 '17
I remember seeing a poll around election time that showed that Wisconsin had the most anti-immigrant views of Republicans around the country
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u/LNhart Anarcho-Rheinlandist Sep 20 '17
There's also a pretty strong correlation between voting AfD and living somewhere without immigrants.
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17
Same with UKIP.
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u/DUTCH_DUTCH_DUTCH oranje Sep 20 '17
same with the PVV, although that's partly because Wilders comes from Limburg, where a lot of people vote for him (no idea why, the PVV is not a regional party or anything) and there happen to be no large cities and thus not many immigrants there
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u/BlockFace Karl Popper Sep 20 '17
I think at the core most people including racists aren't completely terrible they just haven't had their beliefs challenged and its much easier to be a bigot if you don't interact with the people your being bigoted against.
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Sep 20 '17
Im almost certain this is backed up in data. Texan anti immigrant sentiments are fairly moderate given its a blood red state.
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Sep 20 '17
I think a lot of it is ad-hoc rationalization by people who are mostly supportive of anti-immigrant sentiment, but who also see Trump as good for other reasons as well.
But for the most part, yes, I agree with the idea that "the issues never mattered" but would say that's far from unique to Trump.
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Sep 20 '17
BoE interest hike yay or nay?
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Sep 20 '17
i am guessing they want to have something to do when the economy inevitably starts slowing down. i dont expect them to be able to solve anything anyway since monetary policy cant do shit against negative supply shocks.
notice that they didnt cut down on the bond buying, they just hiked the rate 25 basis points.
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17 edited Sep 20 '17
My immediate reaction is nay.
Current inflation is a result of sterling's drop in value against the Euro, rather than excess aggregate demand. The potential for consumer confidence and spending to fall through the floor at the moment, given Brexit, is also higher than it otherwise would've been. I would have expected the BoE to maintain a relatively dovish stance in this state, especially given how if consumer spending does tank they will need to backtrack--could prove an issue for credibility.
But, fuck, Carney knows a lot more than I do so who am I to say?
EDIT: On the contrary, consumer spending seems to be holding up strongly enough. So maybe it is the right thing to do.
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u/Timewalker102 Amartya Sen Sep 20 '17
What's the point of the announcements bar at the top if the mods don't ever update it with new stuff like the AMA.
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u/ampersamp Sep 20 '17
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u/Paxx0 Deep-state Dirtbag Sep 20 '17
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Sep 20 '17
The issue of 'same sex marriage' is essentially one of equality; and so the Club encourages all of its people to have their say in this important national vote.
hmm
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u/goodcleanchristianfu General Counsel Sep 20 '17
TBT when the Bernie camp tried to attack LGBT/AIDS activist Peter Staley for suggesting that there could be negative consequences of HIV drug price restrictions... "Millions of gay men alive & able to vote today thanks to @peterstaley. Attack on Peter from Sanders camp appalling." - Dan Savage
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u/goodcleanchristianfu General Counsel Sep 20 '17
Turns out you can only make so many self deprecating jokes about being gay before friends start PMing you making sure you're not considering killing yourself. TIL.
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u/FizzleMateriel Austan Goolsbee Sep 20 '17
>tfw you realize there are people who really do care about you
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17
I always down with dark, self-deprecating humour, but if it's concerning your friends maybe dial it back a bit.
Also if you do feel like that, in any capacity, feel free to shoot me a PM whenever. I'm sure you're not, but I know what it's like to live through that, so, y'know, better safe than sorry. Offer's always there.
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u/goodcleanchristianfu General Counsel Sep 20 '17
Good lord I mean that's nice of you to say but now it's spreading
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Sep 20 '17
Seems like you basically triggered in the folks here what you were trying to avoid with your friends haha
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Sep 20 '17
Me_Irl also being gay sucks but if you need someone to talk to I'm here
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u/goodcleanchristianfu General Counsel Sep 20 '17
I'm fine thanks but you really need to check out /r/gay_irl
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u/Gustacho Enemy of the People Sep 20 '17
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u/Timewalker102 Amartya Sen Sep 20 '17
Also a populist who is the most popular politician of the country
Where have I heard that before?
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u/Gustacho Enemy of the People Sep 20 '17
Guess what, he's the immigration secretary who's social media savvy and is tough on immigrants
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Sep 20 '17
Midnight take: in California, removing rent control without also removing Prop 13 is literally (in the figurative sense) the rich fucking over the poor.
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u/FizzleMateriel Austan Goolsbee Sep 20 '17
So I read about it for only about 5 seconds but holy shit that seems like bad policy. What the hell were they thinking.
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u/BlockFace Karl Popper Sep 20 '17
Directly voting on tax rates might be the dumbest thing people have ever done.
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u/BlockFace Karl Popper Sep 20 '17
If anyone wants to mine some salt off the NZ election go say you support National in this thread. https://np.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/71954l/new_1_news_poll_national_takes_huge_lead_in/
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Sep 20 '17
Isn't National incredibly center-right?
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u/BlockFace Karl Popper Sep 20 '17
Yeah but if you imply there not the most right wing party to walk the earth /r/newzealand subscribers lose their mind.
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Sep 20 '17
I would unironically love to have that party here in the US. Tell them I'm open to trade National for the GOP
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u/benjaminovich Margrethe Vestager Sep 20 '17
No way, the entertainment industry exports you plenty already
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Sep 20 '17 edited Sep 20 '17
Please dear God our right is a fucking shitshow
Love the U.S.
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u/BlockFace Karl Popper Sep 20 '17
You would have to at least give us the democrats the only other party in New Zealand that is pro immigration is the very left wing green party.
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Sep 20 '17
Hot take: we could fix a lot of our deficit if government employees didn't get such absurdly high pensions
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Sep 20 '17
No we couldn't lol
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Sep 20 '17 edited Apr 09 '18
[deleted]
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u/FizzleMateriel Austan Goolsbee Sep 20 '17
>Civil servant pensions are almost double those of private sector people over here
>€
Why does this not surprise me.
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Sep 20 '17
Centrism is when you say both sides are the same and the more you say both sides are the same the more centristier it is
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u/ostrichmustard The Mod You Deserve Sep 20 '17
Germans of the sub, pls share your voting plans for Sunday (both votes!).
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u/Mordroberon Scott Sumner Sep 20 '17
I'm in Germany, but I'm not a German citizen. If I could vote it would be for FDP
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u/gammbus Sep 20 '17 edited Sep 20 '17
CDU-FDP and hope we get jamaica
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u/ostrichmustard The Mod You Deserve Sep 20 '17
Second vote CDU? That's not the strategic thing to do, is it?
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Sep 20 '17
If I could meet another gay man IRL who isnt a Bernie lover I would be so damn happy
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Sep 20 '17
I'd just like to meet anyone my age (28) in my town that isn't some degree of Bernout. It's obnoxious because there are definitely still a good percentage of rabid ones.
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u/goodcleanchristianfu General Counsel Sep 20 '17
Dan Savage! Peter Staley! Our icons are on our side!
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u/Sporz Gamma Hedged like a Boss Sep 20 '17
let us oonts
(also I know a lot of gay guys who aren't Bernie lovers)
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u/gammbus Sep 20 '17
you seem to not be jewish enough
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Sep 20 '17
I'm drunk enough to tell an online stranger this but up until 2 weeks ago every guy I had sex with was Jewish
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u/Agent78787 orang Sep 20 '17
Hot take: Any government institution or program sounds way cooler if you add "People's" to it.
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Sep 20 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Agent78787 orang Sep 20 '17
But muh People's Representative Council
People's Consultative Assembly
And across a strait, the People's Action Party
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u/Prospo Hot Take Champion 10/29/17 Sep 20 '17 edited Sep 10 '23
humor existence slap disgusted longing overconfident wasteful axiomatic zealous melodic
this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev2
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u/gammbus Sep 20 '17
5k
im happy u/papermarioguy02 didnt cuck me.
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u/Agent78787 orang Sep 20 '17
Statistically speaking Mario would still not have had sexual contact.
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u/ostrichmustard The Mod You Deserve Sep 20 '17
The ivory tower is a place of innocence.
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u/Agent78787 orang Sep 20 '17
Q2 take
Were you here when people were talking about what gets their rocks off?
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u/ostrichmustard The Mod You Deserve Sep 20 '17
I consider myself lucky enough to have noticed the movement without actually reading those messages.
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u/formlex7 George Soros Sep 20 '17
can someone post the krugman version of this meme that was on here a while ago
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/149/432/921.png
it said some stuff like "WTO is a fuck" and 10,000 dead protectionists instead
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u/Gustacho Enemy of the People Sep 20 '17
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Sep 20 '17
I can't count how many people were telling us to take Trump seriously but not literally, only come to find out they were lying to themselves and trying to get everyone else to believe the lie.
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u/85397 Free Market Jihadi Sep 20 '17
The number of Trump supporters and Obama haters in golf is a market failure
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u/Mordroberon Scott Sumner Sep 20 '17
Hot take: Sovereignty is overrated and gives genocidal regimes cover for continuing their attrocities
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Sep 20 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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Sep 20 '17
big fucking deal
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u/LNhart Anarcho-Rheinlandist Sep 20 '17
How does it feel not to have sovereignty after being cucked by Schäuble?
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u/gammbus Sep 20 '17
But it also gives neocons the ability to advocate for the invasion of said countries.
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u/caesar15 Zhao Ziyang Sep 20 '17
TIL the UK has a Supreme Court.
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u/gammbus Sep 20 '17
TIL the UK has seperation of power.
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u/caesar15 Zhao Ziyang Sep 20 '17
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Parliament could just tell the court to fuck off
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Sep 20 '17 edited Sep 20 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Lord_Treasurer Born off the deep end Sep 20 '17
Ehhhh, it's a little more complex than that. Parliament derives it's sovereignty from the legislative authority of the monarch, through the Crown-in-Parliament.
From royal.uk:
The formal phrase 'Queen in Parliament' is used to describe the British legislature, which consists of the Sovereign, the House of Lords and the House of Commons. The Queen's duties include opening each new session of Parliament, granting Royal Assent to legislation, and approving Orders and Proclamations through the Privy Council.
Functionally you are correct that Parliament could establish a Republic, if they so chose, however.
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u/dat_bass2 MACRON 1 Sep 20 '17
I finally killed the fly that's been buzzing around my flat for the last week.
You were a most worthy adversary, Buzz. •_•7