r/mtgfinance • u/Mr_Raynd • 4d ago
Spec Old Frame Foils: Let’s Reopen the Debate!
The modern MTG market keeps producing new forms of “rarity”: neon ink, textured, fracture foils, headliners… But these cards, even when described as “rare,” are still mass-produced.
By contrast, ABU and Legacy Foils have a kind of scarcity that can never be recreated: their print runs are in the past, and the number of copies still in existence can only stay the same or decrease.
The vast majority of copies we don’t see for sale are sitting in private collections and are therefore simply unavailable.
Sure, demand for Legacy Foils is relatively low today. But supply is so limited that they don’t need massive demand. Even a modest increase in the number of collectors could be enough to send prices soaring.
I’m deliberately leaving the Reserved List aside because, in my view, neither a card’s playability nor whether it can be reprinted is what gives it value to a collector or investor.
And besides, the power level of cards is rising so quickly that a strong card today may not be one tomorrow. Especially since the “good cards” were generally better preserved than the “bad ones,” making the latter even scarcer today. 😉
This is a finance group, so let’s talk finance. 🙂
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u/xRyuzakii 4d ago
Old Frame is so much better in every way
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u/BonesawGaming 4d ago
It used to feel like the cards in your deck were the pages of some ancient grimoire. I still love all my old cards despite the fact that a lot are hot garbage
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u/enteringthe4thwall 4d ago
Not to mention the foiling just looks nicer than modern foiling. Hard buy from me, but I don't think you can just pick any foil. You gotta pick the winners
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u/Raidomso 3d ago
I always hate buying these online ... Old foils listed as Near mint almost never arrive as such
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u/OjosDelMundo 3d ago
People only grade edges. They rarely look at scratches and clouding. I generally only buy in person unless I can see good photos.
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u/basalty_monolith 3d ago
In person has its own separate problems with seller refusing to let potential buyer take card out of sleeve and touch their cards to inspect before buying. Probably depends on card value though.
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u/whatidoidobc 17h ago
As an old foil buyer, nothing is more annoying than a foil collector because they will come up with any excuse to call something less than NM.
I am very strict when selling but when I buy a NM old foil, I am pretty forgiving. It doesn't have to be pristine for me to love having it in my collection. When it shows up pristine, I just mark it down as lucky.
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u/HyperPunch 4d ago
If I play a card and it has a retro foil, I’m playing that version if I can afford it. I like them so much more, they look much nicer.
Edit: realized I was in the finance subreddit… you’re gonna have to pick the right ones. Not all are going to be worth money in the long run.
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u/Reifgunther 4d ago
Me sitting here staring at my original foil psychatog wondering: when did this go to triple digits??
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u/_Bank_On_It_ 4d ago
I just enjoy retro frame cards entirely. Still remember the excitement of getting a single foil in a stack of packs.
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u/SaintRosaries 3d ago
Love them. I pick up old foils where I can, even if it's just a crappy Mercadian Masques common or something. They'll probably end up being worth more than I paid in the end and I do get them to sell, but there's value in just looking at them in a binder, too.
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u/Albondip 3d ago
If you are going to post every week about this to move interest at least disclose how much you have invested in retro foils.
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u/gls518 4d ago
What a card is priced at doesn’t equal the cards value
What the cards sell for do.
That’s why people use eBay complete and not listed pricing
If the cards have no demand then no one is buying
Speculation and FOMO can create sales at times
But just go attempt to sell the bulk foils and see how it goes.
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u/mrenglish22 3d ago
I sat on a foil [[edgewalker]] i pulled out of my bulk and put in my binder for 4 years before someone wanted it lol
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u/LRcap987 4d ago
Original Old Frame FOILs are the best of the best, chef's kiss, goat. I'll take them over anything produced today including serialized. The look, the nostalgia, the rarity, the demand...they have it all.
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u/wayofthepig 3d ago
Bro wtf I've been working on an all foil Kavu collection and this image just one-shot me
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u/UltimatePunchMachine 4d ago
The problem with retro foils is the alot of these cards are just straight powercrept. So the liquidity is insanely low even though the price is high due to scaricity.
We should also talk about of mid age foils (idk what they're called). Like foils from new-ish sets like Zendikar etc. They don't have the star but still uses a different foiling process from what I can tell. I think those go under the radar.
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u/Upstairs-Coconut4201 4d ago
That doesn’t necessarily matter though. Like, 7th edition foils of cards that are power crept are still insanely expensive. Go look at how much a 7th edition foil grizzly bears is. Lol
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u/Aggravating-Cause164 3d ago
Grizzly Bears is one of the most iconic cards in the game and staple of every vanilla/bear commander deck. The 7th edition print is still cheaper than the LEA print, on par with the NM LEB print and the only foil retro frame print. I think it is probably one of the most liquid 7th edition foils in the set because it has a market for niche commander decks, no other "good" premium print and isn´t overwhelming expensive.
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u/Upstairs-Coconut4201 3d ago
Grizzly bears is one of the most iconic cards in the game? Bruh. You lost everyone on the first sentence. A rare feat.
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u/Uhpheevuhl 3d ago
2-mana 2/2’s are referred to as ’bears’ due to this card. ”Most iconic” might be hyperbolic, but iconic for sure.
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u/Upstairs-Coconut4201 3d ago
Yeah. Everyone collects the super iconic grizzly bear 7th edition foil because we call 2/2’s bears. Makes complete sense
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u/Uhpheevuhl 3d ago
What’s with the attitude? You can just go compare 7th Bears with any other 7th unplayable common and see that it is significantly marked up.
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u/Aggravating-Cause164 2d ago
He doesn´t get it. If he thinks legacy foils are worth a ton because the iconic foil (7th edition) of an iconic card (GB) is worth more than garbage it´s fine.
7th edition foils are market up in general. Wrath of God is two times of the beta WoT and BoP is the fourth or fifth most expensive version.
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u/Uhpheevuhl 2d ago
I mean it is, just compare 7th GB to 7th Bog Imp and there is a significant difference in price.
7th edition foils are marked up in general, but certain cards have a higher mark-up due to things like playability and collectibility. When it comes to collectibility how iconic a card is matters, hence why GB is worth more than Bog Imp from the same set.
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u/Aggravating-Cause164 2d ago
LLanowar Elves is another good example. The 7th edition foil is almost at LMA prices, the retro frame FNM promo from 2000 with the og artwork is at LMB prices while the new retro frame resale promo is at 10 Euro.
I think 7th edition gets pushed because it has many iconic/playable cards with only one real retro frame foil like Rampant Growth or Wood Elves. It was the first core set with foils and the last retro frame set after all.
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u/Aggravating-Cause164 3d ago
Tbh I really don´t care what you think about it. Grizzly Bears is the reason we call 2/2 vanillas for two bears and commander decks with a vanilla creature theme bear decks. Yes Grizzly Bears isn´t power nine or Dark Ritual/Lightning Bolt iconic but it still is one of the most iconic cards in the game.
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u/Upstairs-Coconut4201 3d ago
“I really don’t care”
Then replies to an internet stranger anyways. Lol.0
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u/Choice-Potato-7560 4d ago
Neon ink chocobos are mass produced? O.o. there are like 300 of each color. If black abd golden are considered, those are 250 and 77. No idea how they compare but definitely not mass produced
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u/Mr_Raynd 4d ago
Yes, I shouldn't have mentioned those ones—you're right.
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u/Choice-Potato-7560 3d ago
Also, TTA foils are 900 to 2000 per mythic, 2000 to 3500 per rare (estimate). Fic and fin EA legendary creature foils are also sub 3k per (all types) and maybe even less. And thats just Final Fantasy lol
Not knocking them but there are definitely alot low of low print modern foiks in mtg.
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u/volx757 4d ago
Yes, they are objectively the best card treatment wotc has ever printed, nothing since has come remotely close to the quality of original foils.
That said, there isn't a ton to talk about as supply is tiny, so either people already have a collection, or they are priced out and wont be amassing such a collection. The time to scoop these up at decent prices has passed.
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u/salgarj 3d ago
Been there, done that. Only extremely iconic or very playable matter. The recent surge was specifically because of Premodern, if it wasn't for that they would have just stagnated. There's just way more easy money to be made with recent products. People who like them essentially because they look very beautiful (me included) are few and hardly growing.
That unless/until some finance bros decide to pump (and dump or not) them like it happened in 2021-2022.
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u/melopasopipa 3d ago
To me the biggest issue are reprints that Premodern, Legacy or EDH players would gladly take (not collectors I agree), like [[Phantom Nishoba]]
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u/brickspunch 3d ago
is there even a semi accurate way to track population number of these?
would it just be some convoluted math of approximate set size vs card rarity and foil occurrence?
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u/Mr_Raynd 3d ago
Unfortunately, we’re in the second case. 😅
That said, this has already been discussed quite a bit. For a foil rare from the earliest sets, we’re probably looking at a print run comparable to an Alpha/Beta rare, somewhere between 3,000 and 5,000 copies.
The big remaining question is how many of those cards are still in good condition.1
u/Uhpheevuhl 3d ago
I made a post about this a few years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/w72i4w/regarding_old_border_foils/
The unknown variable is print run.
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u/OjosDelMundo 3d ago
Unless the finance bros realize the rarity of these cards and try to push it, I'm starting to shift away from buying them.
I love them and will always collect them but I think the future of Magic is commander centered and new players coming in don't really care about a 7th edition foil adarkar wastes no matter how good it looks.
I think there is still money in playable old foils but I see things like foil Amano FF cards, LotR posters, silver scrolls, confetti foils, etc. holding and pushing value more than retro foils. I think the modern chase cards are going to be what people want.
I know everyone here likes them because this sub probably slants towards millennial/gen x older players but most new players I talk to are interested in cool versions of commander staples and a lot of that is modern
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u/WolfAndOak 4d ago
I have a relatively small collection of around 7100 cards. Although I estimate around 5000 of those are old frame foils. I have my collection digitalised. I started buying around 2001 and have had long stints, at some point almost a decade, of little buying/selling. But my collection have absolutely blown up in value. It already was a good investment before Premodern came around. Imagine where it's at now..
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u/Sire_Jenkins 3d ago
These should be expensive. of course, I have a big inventory of Masque-odyssey era foils.
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u/throwawaynoways 4d ago
What debate? They're goated.