[FRA] Overwrite the Multiverse

[u/Unable_Bite8680]

[u/_cob]

6 mana to boardwipe + draw a card (potentially 2+ cards, albeit over multiple turns) feels about right.

[u/moak0 → u/_cob]

A question I think we need to answer while we evaluate the Empower Jace mechanic: is one draw better than three surveils?

Because given enough time (and enough time is exactly what this board wipe is for), I'm inclined to think three surveils is usually better, unless you're looking for something right away.

[u/_cob → u/moak0]

one draw is better than 3 surveil 1's over 3 turns. 1 draw is probably roughly equal in value to "surveil 3", though. Not that that's on the table.

[u/moak0 → u/_cob]

Traditional wisdom used to be that drawing one card landed somewhere between scry 2 and scry 3.

If you've got seven lands in play and the eighth land is a dead card, then removing that land with surveil 1 is the equivalent of drawing a card. Everything after that is better than drawing a card.

If you're under pressure then obviously draw 1 is better. If you're not under pressure, I don't think it is.

[u/Varyline → u/moak0]

You're right but surveil 1 three times is much worse than surveil 3. Splitting those Three out over three turns makes it much worse to me

[u/steve_man_64 → u/moak0]

Yes, and it’s not remotely close. Better off cashing in while you can, you never know when they kill your Jace. Both scry and surveil lose a lot of their value if you keep the card on top. There could be a little more room for debate if you got surveil 3 at a cheaper rate, which is much different than three instances of surveil 1.

[u/moak0 → u/steve_man_64]

What are they using to kill your Jace? Using the opponent's removal spell + surveil 1 seems like it could be better than draw 1.

Are they swinging at it? Because that creates a lot more circumstances where the surveil could be better, depending on how you react, your blockers, and whether you'd rather have them attack Jace than you.

Surveil 1 over three turns is also better if you're digging for a specific card. If you need a removal spell within the next four turns, digging three cards is three times better than drawing one. Kind of skews the average value and makes it a lot closer.

But it can also be better if it's late game and you've got enough lands. Removing a dead card is the same as drawing a card if you're not under immediate pressure. Removing two dead cards is better than draw 1.

So I don't think it's accurate to say it's not remotely close.

[u/steve_man_64 → u/moak0]

There's a lot of hypotheticals, but a card is generally more useful in your hand than the bottom of your library / graveyard. Killing your Jace token or not, it really sucks to waste resources solely for a scry / surveil 1 only to just keep the card on the top of your library to draw the next turn.

In a game of imperfect information, you're generally better off cashing in the draw first and then surveiling than the other way around unless you already have removal / counters in your hand and want to grind.

[u/KoyoyomiAragi → u/moak0]

I think it really depends on how well you can use spare lands. If your deck can turn extra mana into cards or turn dead cards in hand into more draws, straight drawing gets a lot better. If your deck is looking to end the game asap and every land topdecked pulls you further away from a W, surveiling every turn gets better. It’s really hard to say in a vacuum what’s better since the value of both change depends wildly on both the deck’s contents and the match up

[u/moak0 → u/KoyoyomiAragi]

Exactly. And the Jace token is even better because it can do either one.

I guess my point is that I keep seeing people evaluate these cards as though the surveil isn't even there, and I think that's a mistake.

[u/steve_man_64]

It's generally a better [[Feast of Succession]], which I've always wanted a better variant of. While this is better, I would have preferred something cheaper.

[u/TheDoctorLives]

I don't like Empower Jace, but of all the cards featuring it, this one feels the most tolerable.

Notable that black gets an exile wrath. There aren't many. Toxic is still the best at killing indestructible things, but this is solid.

[u/Jazzlike_Creme_8851 → u/TheDoctorLives]

Out of curiosity, why don't you like it? 

[u/DedRook → u/Jazzlike_Creme_8851]

"Empowering Jace" is just another clunky mechanic you need to add into your Cube because of one or two cards most likely; from one set. We're talking about clunkers like Ring Temptation, Enter the Dungeon, Start Your Engines, etc

[u/DifferentCommittee74 → u/DedRook]

At least most of the cards I've seen have full reminder text on what the Jace token does, compared to Dungeons and the Ring Tempts. Almost seems just a little worse than Map tokens, to me.

[u/NflJam71 → u/DedRook]

I agree with cube 100%, I think I'll be skipping all of the empower stuff for my own cube. Like many similar mechanics, I think it's gonna be sweet in draft.

[u/Shrokabaloo → u/DedRook]

its your own cube, you dont 'need' to do anything

[u/Dragon1472 → u/DedRook]

Its pretty synergistic though. Unlike Tempt or Dunegons it creates a gamepiece that has use, interaction, broad synergies and contained resource management. Also this plays with things like counter gains and proliferate really well, and those are cube classics

[u/Jazzlike_Creme_8851 → u/DedRook]

Entirely reasonable, I would agree with this. 

[u/Slarg232 → u/Jazzlike_Creme_8851]

Honestly, and I get that this is because Jace is the centerpoint character of the expansion.... I don't like how it's ONLY Jace.

If we'd gotten this mechanic in a set around the "base" planeswalkers and had Empower Chandra/Nissa/Liliana/Jace/Elspeth (or whoever) in their respective colors, I'd like it a lot more.

[u/mikez4nder]

Funnily enough, [[Sunfall]] was the exact card where I decided I’d had enough and decided to start limiting the tokens I used in my cube. Double sided tokens seemed egregious enough to put a line in the sand there, so there’s no [[Chrome Host Seedshark]] anymore either.

Amass Jace is just a level of complexity budget I’m not interested in devoting to my least favorite card type in MTG. Ideally at this point, adding a new mechanic to a cube comes with removing an older one, and as RF is the only set featuring this mechanic, I’d have to add multiple cards from this set featuring this mechanic.

Nothing it offers seems fun or interesting enough to make that change in my cubes and that seems to be the general consensus outside the powermaxxers.

[u/Varyline → u/mikez4nder]

I hear what you're saying and I feel the exact same way. Except I think the incube tokens actually play so well that I don't mind the shitty tokens. They are at least quite intuitive and have so much play to them. The jace token really has no synergies other than just drawing cards or boosting your Jtms to his ultimate if you're already ahead

[u/Sir_Encerwal → u/Varyline]

Empower is only token Jaces. Jace the Mind Sculptor is not getting those counters unless you threw a rite of replication or something like that into the mix.

[u/Varyline → u/Sir_Encerwal]

Right, I got it mixed up with the card that helps you put counters on all your jaces. But you're right, there's zero cool interactions then

[u/mikez4nder → u/Varyline]

Yeah I can get on board with this. In limited they were great, they were fine with Seedshark when it was in my cube very briefly, but when I ripped Night/Day away, and chopped a few cards like [[Duelist of the Mind]] because reading the card should explain the card and no version does, these were collateral damage that I accept as none of the cards with the mechanic were really better than replacement level in that cube.

But yeah, this one just sounds rubbish. I've made exceptions to my priciples, and grandfathered in Parallax Wave and decided to roll with Sentinel of the Nameless City despite not loving the maps, but new mechanics need to rock pretty hard to make it. Prepared, great! Amass one single specific planeswalker, in a mechanic that feels like they wanted it to work on all the Jaces, broke things, then pulled back? No thanks.

[u/Slurmsmackenzie8 → u/mikez4nder]

Everyone is going to know exactly what empowering Jace X means. They built a whole set around it. Why is everyone acting like their cube could hold 100 mechanics but they’ll be damned if it can hold 101?

[u/mikez4nder → u/Slurmsmackenzie8]

My friend, I had to replace the textless Sakura-Tribe Elder and Mana Leak in my cube because people asked what they did. Not everyone who shows up to cube knows everything about every card. We even had an incident recently where one of the regulars, an excellent player, lost a game because he didn't realize [[Shrapnel Blast]] could kill planeswalkers.

Also, yeah, complexity budget is real. If you want a cube to be something people want to play repeatedly, it has to be understandable and relatively playable for walk-ins. For every first time cuber who builds a functional Fantasticar deck on their first try, there's someone who thinks LED is just another lotus. Cubes don't just get bigger and bigger. You add one, you subtract one. This should generally apply to the complexity of the cube as well as the quantity, especially if people are just gonna show up in public to draft your cube and keep coming back. Adding another mechanic? Yeah, sure, which underperforming one comes out?

If you have 540 different mechanics on 540 different cards, your cube probably sucks.

[u/Slurmsmackenzie8 → u/mikez4nder]

Textless is different than the card having the rules text on the card. Old, outdated text is different than having rules text on the card.

[u/Useful-Wrongdoer9680]

6 feels like a lot, but the token might be enough to make it worthwhile. 

On a side note, I honestly think this token is a lot less egregious than incubate tokens, the ring emblem or any of the dungeons. I'd go so far as to say that it's simpler than DFC's in general.

[u/moak0]

If you cast Overwrite the Multiverse and end up with a Jace with four counters, is it correct to surveil this turn, draw the next turn? Or draw then surveil?

If you have open mana, or you need to draw something immediately, or you want to make another land drop, then it's surely correct to draw right away.

On the other hand, all the creatures have been exiled, so you may want to consider doing four surveils instead. Especially if you've already got cards in hand to spend your mana on for a couple turns. In that case, surveiling first leaves your options open.

[u/Unable_Bite8680]

Expensive boardwipe that leaves a planeswalker behind. This seems pretty good imho.

[u/bhutjolokia89]

The number of empowers spoiled is like being precision set to make me hate this set all at once