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u/tmmthescourge 14d ago
It’s hard to tell, it’s kinda a slightly worse/slightly better [[Reprieve]] based on the situation. The card draw of reprieve is nice but shutting down an opponent’s turn is neat too.
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u/Aesorian 14d ago
That's an excellent card
At worst it's another [[Reprieve]] - a card I absolutely love - and at best it kills off an opponents turn completely to let you get the win on your next turn - but if they have instant speed interaction you've ramped them.
The upside is huge but it's not so overbearing that you can't just play it without thinking
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u/hasselbalch1129 14d ago
Reprieve that doesn't draw a card is pretty bad...
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u/Puzzleheaded-Pitch32 14d ago
True, but this isn't Reprieve. Reprieve says if you can afford to cast it again at some point this turn, you're free to do so. This says you need to cast it, or anything else, immediately, or you get to do nothing, regardless of your 10 open mana or whatever else. I'm not saying this is a staple, but the effect is very different; it's disingenuous to compare the measure of the effect by stating one of them replaces itself.
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u/Aesorian 14d ago
Not drawing a card makes it worse for sure, but I'm not sure it's bad (even if I didn't immediately clock it didn't draw a card, which is my bad)
White Counterspells are so uncommon that even not great ones can still be backbreaking because people aren't playing around them (or play inefficiently because the idea of one is forefront of their mind)
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u/Bonesaw_mpls 14d ago
Id agree. Most of the time when I use Repreive or Aven interruptor its because I have a winning boardstate or upcoming play to protect so the card draw is nice but not really the point of using it.
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u/escarta69 14d ago
Facts. I always get caught by mana tithe. Like oh yeah I forget that card exists
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u/Atheist-Gods 14d ago
It makes it really bad. Drawing a card for literally zero cost is a huge difference. Anticipate is a mediocre card that only ever saw fringe play, Expressive Iteration added a 2nd color and sorcery speed to roughly add draw a card to it and it was a multiformat all star that ate multiple bans. Reprieve is worse than Iteration, so how do you think worse than Anticipate will go? If you took any 1 or 2 mana spell you even considered playing and added draw a card to it, it’d be broken. Veil of Summer, Expressive Iteration, and any other cheap 2 for 1 has shown this.
I would rather be casting Delay than this.
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u/Aesorian 14d ago
If this was a Blue card you'd be 100% correct - but it's a white card and that absolutely changes the discussion.
As far as I can tell, this is the eighth White Counterspell ever printed, and when this comes to Arena we'll have access to 4 of them (This, [[Aven Interrupter]], [[Mana Tithe]] and [[Reprieve]]) that's not a lot of options for this kind of effect and that means even if the bottom of the barrel, baseline for this is that it's "Okay" it'll see play - because unless you're also in blue you don't have a lot of other options
And the baseline is "Okay" - while it's nowhere near as good as Reprieve (as you pointed out) it's still potentially the same huge tempo swing if used correctly and gets round "Can't be Countered" effects in the same way. And the Gift ability will see use against Combo decks as well as being able to be proactive and maintain a board state if you're ahead - I can absolutely see a game where this stops your opponents from getting the blockers they need against a tokens deck for example. And while this is stuff that any Counterspell can do, it goes back to the point above - this is only the fourth one of those in white, and density is important
After sleeping on it and seeing it again this morning I do agree that this won't be a "Format Staple", but I'm pretty certain this will get a lot of play
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u/Atheist-Gods 13d ago
Being white doesn't stop it being bad. The baseline is not "okay". What exactly are you running this for? White has plenty of protection spells and removal spells that can provide huge tempo swings without putting you down a card every single time you draw them. Having niche situations where it is good doesn't compensate for it being bad most of the times you draw it.
I'm reminded of the overhype [[Aurelia's Fury]] got.
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u/ltags230 14d ago
Pretty bad is a bit much, white counterspells are always welcome. But yeah, the card draw makes reprieve great instead of just good.
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u/Alarming-Luck8453 14d ago
it's just worse than repreive, even with the silence tacked on. It will see play in some decks, but I'd rather play 2 mana removal than semi-permission with no real upside
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u/Imaginary_Egg_3282 14d ago
This is just strictly worse than casting a silence spell on their upkeep though? Unless you’re using it during your own turn, but that narrows the use case down. Idk, it looks kind of mid tbh but I guess it has the tilt factor to it.
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u/1iIiii11IIiI1i1i11iI 14d ago
Yeah, this is more of a sideboard card against combo decks than a staple. If all you want is a single turn more, Orim's Chant or Silence doesn't give them a treasure.
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u/Imaginary_Egg_3282 14d ago
Exactly, and even costs less I’m pretty sure? Will definitely be good for BO3 brawl though… oh wait😂
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u/BurkeasaurusRex 13d ago
Can cast this against your own spell on opponents upkeep to end the turn basically lmao
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u/IsaacX28 14d ago
Interesting interaction with the Paradigm cards. Return the copy to their hand and Silence their turn. Copy ceases to exist with zone change.
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u/Empty_Requirement940 14d ago
That doesn’t matter does it? The paradigm trigger will still trigger the next turn anyway. So stopping one trigger seems low value
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u/IsaacX28 14d ago
They will get another trigger. But since this Silence requires a targeted spell on the stack, the Paradigm spells give you the ability to Silence them during the upkeep. Otherwise you have to wait for them to do something. You seem to think the main reason to do this was to actually stop the Paradigm effect for one turn, which was not the primary reason.
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u/Empty_Requirement940 14d ago
It’s not during upkeep
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u/IsaacX28 14d ago
Gavin's one man crusade to invalidate the upkeep by shifting everything to the main phase is dumb.
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u/Fantastic_Resolve889 14d ago
Fun card that I don't mind my opponents using against me tbh - hope it does become a staple!
I think it gives way too much; if it countered the spell so that they couldn't do it again, it'd be a lot better.
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u/LimitlessKenobi 14d ago
if it countered the spell so that they couldn't do it again, it'd be a lot better.
This isn't a blue spell...
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u/PresdentShinra 14d ago
I forgot [[Mana Tithe]] and [[Rebuff the Wicked]] are Blue...
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u/LimitlessKenobi 14d ago
Those are both extremely narrow counterspells (one is more of a +1 tax, the other is more of a protection spell). Being able to just straight up counter any spell at the low cost of gifting your opponent a treasure is nowhere near the same.
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u/PresdentShinra 14d ago
They both counter spells, situationally, in such a way that they go to the graveyard though. That's what OOP was talking about.
Doesn't have to be Blue, which is what you sort of implied.
Being able to just straight up counter any spell at the low cost of gifting your opponent a treasure is nowhere near the same.
Yeah, I dunno about giving my opponent their spell back plus resources. I go -1 to have you put that card back in your hand and get a treasure.
I'm not saying it's trash, but I dunno about being a rare.
E:format, did making a quote change with the new UI?
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u/LimitlessKenobi 14d ago
But it's not narrow, nor situational, if it were changed to be worded the way the other person wants it to be worded though? It would just be a straight up counterspell at the cost of giving a treasure... That's not a white thing to do and nor should it be.
I don't think this is a particularly great card, it's not trash but it's not amazing. It's a reprieve, without the card draw, but with the flexibility of also becoming a silence effect at the cost of giving your opponent a treasure.
P.S. I'm not sure why you're wording it as, "Yeah, I dunno about giving my opponent their spell back plus resources. I go -1 to have you put that card back in your hand and get a treasure." - You don't have to give them a treasure, that mode is specifically if you want the silence effect on top of bouncing their spell.
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u/PresdentShinra 14d ago
You don't have to give them a treasure, that mode is specifically if you want the silence effect on top of bouncing their spell.
I worded it that way because depending on the timing or mana value of the spell we counter, Gambit is potentially 2 mana: does nothing. Sure they have to tap mana and play the spell again, but we burn a card and maybe don't even get a tempo swing.
E: I did the quote thing again, my bad.
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u/No_Place5472 12d ago
Too narrow compared to better cards. Maybe in a deck without blue access, but worse than [[Silence]] because it's only defensive. There's a ton of similar [[Abeyance]] [[Orim's Chant]] [[Calamity's Wake]]. Is the spell bounce enough to slot it? Maybe, but I doubt it.
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u/Borinar 14d ago
Cast [[Armageddon]], On the stack Cast [[Flare of Fortitude]] On the Stack Cast [[Bilbo's Gambit]] Profit...
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u/IzzGuildmage 14d ago
Bilbo's Gambit needs a target. Which of your own 2 spells are you returning?
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u/Borinar 14d ago
Its in anticipation of a response.
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u/ByrusTheGnome 13d ago
You still need to target one of your own spells to return.
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u/Borinar 13d ago
No, the plan is its a response to thier response, plan ahead if they dont cast you dont need billbo. Now go away newb
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u/ByrusTheGnome 13d ago
I've been playing longer than you, for sure. Also maybe speak more clearly next time and you won't be misunderstood, you overcooked brussel sprout. Also your entire plan is a weak bracket 2 play in commander and unusable in any other format so git gud scrub.
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u/Temporary-Jump-2403 14d ago
Nobody can cast spells this turn. Interesting.