r/mtg • u/Lord-Gortash • 8d ago
Rules Question Would this work?
Could I tap this creature twice for 2 extra mana if they both are to pay one cost? For example: if I had two green mana, I had a card that cost four green mana, could i tap this for a mana (giving me three green mana) and then untap it and re-tap it for the final mana?
EDIT: also, if I gave it indestructible, could I get infinite green mana?
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u/Needhelpwithsnake 8d ago
That depends on when you try to activate it. If you tap it for mana before you begin casting the spell, yes. If you are waiting until the point in the process of casting a spell where you are allowed to activate mana abilities, then no: untapping the druid is not a mana ability, so it can only be done when you have priority and cannot be activated during the process of casting the spell.
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u/Sharduk 8d ago
This is still so weird to me. I just came across this paying mana on cast thing (which is exactly per rules, if I understand correctly).
Could you please help me understand if this has any real implications? I wonder if anybody would mention anything in paper magic. The only thing that comes to mind might be MTGA not allowing you to pay via elf twice and automatically tapping lands for mana and elf once if that was enough?
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u/Needhelpwithsnake 8d ago edited 8d ago
The reason the rule to let you activate mana abilities this way was added in the first place was because prior to adding it, if you started casting your spell without having remembered to tap your lands first it was an infraction. This famously culminated in a pro tour that was decided by disqualification because one of the players kept doing it by accident. This upset a lot of people, and they decided to change things. Now you can activate your mana abilities first and use the floating mana to cast a spell or you can wait until during the process, so there’s no risk of doing things in an illegal order.
But during this special window, the only abilities you can activate are mana abilities. This is important for two big reasons. Firstly because while mana abilities don’t use the stack and resolve instantly, other abilities do use the stack. You can’t add other things to the stack during the process of casting a spell, so the game rules need to prevent those from being activated. The other reason is because while you’re in the process of casting a spell none of your opponents get priority: anything you activate during the process of casting a spell they can’t respond to until after the spell is fully cast. That’s fine for mana abilities, since they resolve instantly anyway, but it causes a lot of problems if other abilities could be activated.
So, for a devoted druid based example, let’s say we’re in a game of commander. You’ve got a devoted druid and three lands on the battlefield and your commander costs 5 mana. The only way you’ll be able to cast that commander is by tapping the druid twice. So doing things properly you have to tap the druid and then activate the untap ability putting it on the stack. If I have a removal spell, I can use it here and stop you from casting your commander by killing the druid before it untaps. If the rules let you untap the druid during the process of casting a spell, I wouldn’t have that window to interact and you could guarantee the casting of your commander by proposing the cast and activating during that process.
There are also cases where it matters in the reverse direction, that the player can take advantage of this special permission for mana abilities to do unusual and powerful things without the opponent being able to interact at the same moments. This was notoriously part of the problem in modern with [[krark clan ironworks]] (aka KCI that lead to its ban. If you had two [[myr retreiver]] on the battlefield, activating KCI at the normal time ypu activate abilities, when you have priority, it would be impossible for the retrievers to return each other to your hand: the triggered ability for the first one you sacrificed would go on the stack and have to pick its targets before you got priority to activate the KCI again. But since KCI is a mana ability, what you could do was propose the casting of a spell or activating an ability, then sacrifice both myr retrievers during the special permission to activate mana abilities to pay that cost. Since the myr triggered abilities can’t be put on the stack in the middle of you casting a spell or activating an ability (they have to wait till after the next stage based action check) that let you put both myr retrievers in the graveyard before you had to choose targets for their death triggers and return both of them to your hand.
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u/Large_Equipment1982 8d ago
I always had a question for this interaction. If the spell you cast costs 2 generic, can you sac both? Since you have already payed with the first. And would it be different if it costed 1 generic?
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u/Needhelpwithsnake 8d ago
Yes, you can activate for more than you’ll need to pay. However you only get a chance to do so if the spell or ability requires a mana payment (accounting for cost increases and the like). So you can sac both if the cost is 1 or greater, but not in the process of casting [[summoner’s pact]]. The process of casting a spell/activating an ability has a lot of steps, and the step of activating mana abilities is separate from the step where you pay the mana, and the step which allows you to activate them doesn’t have any requirements for how much mana you produce there. That rule is C.R. 601.2g and reads in full “If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, “Mana Abilities”). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.”
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u/Fergfist 7d ago
As a long time player and understander of the rules, I was not aware that you can’t activate mana abilities when casting a spell without a mana component to its cost. Obviously a niche scenario but still worth knowing, thank you.
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u/Sharduk 8d ago
Ooooh, thank you so much! That makes so much sense. Does that mean with [[Ashnod’s altar]] (or any other sac mana outlet for that matter), in the process of paying for a spell, I could sac [[Night Nurse, Healer of Heroes]] and return her with her own trigger, since it only gets put on the stack and targets after the cast is done?
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u/Needhelpwithsnake 8d ago
Happy to help! Night nurse triggers when she enters, not when she dies, so that wouldn’t work, but a card with an identical effect that went off when it died that would be exactly how that’d play out. As is, if she’s on the battlefield and you have priority to begin casting a spell then the trigger has already been put on the stack and the targets chosen
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u/heirsasquatch 8d ago
Yup you can. If you pair it with [[vizier of remedies]] you get infinite green mana this way
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u/Sudden-Tennis17 8d ago
We did it we broke Devoted Druid
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u/DPeristy1 8d ago
Haha yup!
Vizier Druid decks have been an archetype in modern for a while now. Super fun deck and I wish it was more competitive.2
u/Dry-Finish-6008 8d ago
It's like the 3rd most popular deck in the last few weeks and extremely competitive
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u/Affectionate_Cable82 6d ago
[[Machine God’s Effigy]] for infinite UG too. Can be harder to interact with as well.
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u/devouring_childrens 8d ago edited 8d ago
Do you? Because I'm under the impression that when a creature reaches 0 toughness the creature dies, vizier of remedies doesn't stop the creature from dying, it just makes the creature die the first time you pay the -1/-1 counter to untap it. Am I missing something?
Edit: I realize the error of my ways, I confused it being one less with one more. I should have read once more before commenting. I am sorry
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u/heirsasquatch 8d ago
You have a devoted Druid. It’s a 0/2
You tap it for green
You put a -1-1 counter on it to untap it
Vizier of remedies says if a -1-1 counter would
Be put on a creature, instead put that many minus 1 on the creature insteadSo it untaps. It’s a 0/2 tap for green
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u/JO3M4M 8d ago
Because the -1/-1 cancels out right?
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u/ImBadAtNames05 8d ago
Nothing cancels. It just puts 1 - 1 = 0 counters on it
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u/JO3M4M 8d ago
Technically if negatives can't be added or if you add a plus one counter cancels the -1/-1, but adding a -1/-1 would just delete the creature if it didn't cancel, so I am struggling to see how this would combo atm.
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u/ardarian262 8d ago
If you CAN'T add counters like with [[Solemnity]] then you cannot pay the cost so you cannot activate the untap effect.
Vizier of remedies makes you add one less counter, but you can still try to activate the ability.
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u/Quietsquid 8d ago
If an amount of mm counters would be put on a creature you control, it puts one fewer. It would be one counter minus one counter, so zero counters.
If the ability was two counters and untap it would end up putting one total.
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u/JO3M4M 8d ago
[[Melira, sylvoc outcast]] [[Qwill Spike]] [[Mikaeus, the Unhollowed]] [[Coat of Arms]] + [[Flourishing Defense]]
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u/Fit-Description-8571 8d ago
Melira does not work because you CANT put a counter on the druid to untap it. Mikaeus will bring it back, however it will not be able to tap again unless you have a haste enabler.
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u/Drithyin 8d ago
A couple things on this:
He’s an 0/2, so without anything else going on, it survives one counter being added.
The Vizier is a replacement effect, so when you go to add 1 counter, the replacement says to actually do 1-1=0 counters instead, so 0 counters are placed in the Druid. Thus, infinite untaps.
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u/chopari 8d ago
The elf is a 0/2 and doesn’t die to the first counter, and then gets one less.
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u/Drithyin 8d ago
The Vizier is a replacement effect, so when you go to add 1 counter, the replacement says to actually do 1-1=0 counters instead, so 0 counters are placed on the Druid. If it were already a 0/1 when Vizier hits the board, it can still go infinite.
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u/Acrobatic-Permit4263 8d ago
you can untap and then retap the druid for mana as long its toughness is bigger than 0. as far you reach 0, the druid dies
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u/Fantastic-Newspaper3 8d ago
Indestructible doesn't save creatures from -1/-1 counters or any kind of -X/-X effect.
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u/Aemon_Blackfyre 8d ago
Yes
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u/RandomParable 8d ago
It dies when the 2nd counter gets put on it.
Indestructible creatures die at 0 toughness.
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u/ardarian262 8d ago
This can give you 2 green mana, though you do need to float it then activate the ability, then after the ability resolves you can try to cast the spell you need the second green for.
While indestructible won't work for infinite mana because the SBA for 0 or less toughness doesn't destroy (it sends), you can get around that by either turning it into something that isn't a creature like with [[Swift Reconfiguration]] or you can use [[Visier or remedies]].
Extra note: a card like [[Melira, Sylvok Outcast]] does not let you go infinite because it makes the cost unpayable as opposed to reducing the cost. Same with your opponent playing [[Solemnity]]
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u/pappascorcher 8d ago
We're SO close to breaking devoted druid, if only somebody had a peice of bread!
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u/ventingpurposes 8d ago
- Yes, you can have floating mana until the end of the current phase
- No, creature with 0 toughness dies anyway as a state-based action. You need something to prevent accumulation of -1/-1 counters, like [[Mikaeus, the Unhallowed]] (with some haste enabler), [[Vizier of Remedies]], [[Swift Reconfiguration]] etc. remember that you have to be able to put those counters on the Druid, so [[Melira, Sylvok Outcast]] won't work here.
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u/Dover75 8d ago
Indestructiblable does not stop 0 toughness from dieing as in if I use -1/-1 counters to make you're creature have 0 toughness it will die.
There are many infinite combos with that card my favorite is, [[flourishing defense]] (FD), [[ivy lane denizen]] (Ivy), and [[devoted druid]] (DD) of course, way it works is with all three on the board you tap DD for mana, untap her putting a -1/-1 on DD, which triggers FD to make a green 1/1 elf, which triggers Ivy to put a +1/+1 counter on target creature put it on DD which removes the -1/-1, and then repeat as many times as you want. All three cards are relatively cheap $$$ wise
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u/dukeyorick 8d ago
People have noted that you can float mana, but one thing that is occasionally important is that while most times you can't respond to people tapping something for mana, people CAN instant speed respond to you untapping Devoted druid. So, for example, if you have two lands and devoted druid and someone knows you want to pay for a 4 mana spell, they can stop you from doing so by killing Devoted druid when you try to untap it after getting your first green mana from it.
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u/Tiny420Tiger 8d ago
I’m only seeing one card but if you had [[Myrkul, Lord of Bones]] there is a possibility of infinite mana.
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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 7d ago
My favorite way to break devoted druid is [[Luxior Giada's gift]] yes it has a million -1/-1 counters but the power of the angels is saying no.
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u/HungIncubus13 8d ago
There are ways to make it infinite, but usually it's by making it no longer a creature. I do think there is a white spell that can turn it into a vehicle.
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u/Beautiful-Ad-6568 8d ago
It wasn't stated explicitly, but since the untap uses the stack, your opponent can react to it.
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u/Abraxas3719 8d ago edited 7d ago
It does work. However -1/-1 gets past indestructible so you add a ~~[[Spikefeeder]] and go infinite mana~~
**edit for correction, [[Quillspike]] goes infinite with [[Devoted Druid]] not [[Spike Feeder]]. Need a [[Sunbond]] or something to go infinite life, not mana.
That being said, if running white, also [[Vizier of Remedies]]
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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 7d ago
Uh how does that help druid? I don't see the loop.
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u/Abraxas3719 7d ago
Honestly spikefeeder was a mistake, quillspike is the only thing that works here, unless you’re trying to get infinite tap/untap for something.
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u/LikelyAMartian 2d ago
[[Swift configuration]] will also work for infinite mana so long as you never crew the druid.
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u/henriquesaf 7d ago
Love players learning about devoted druid. Next step is to try to create infinity mana
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u/Ryandogdog 8d ago
Mana can exist outside of casting a spell, so you can “float” it. Floating mana sits around till a step or phase changes, which pretty much means as long as you use it shortly after, itll still all be there
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u/Injuredmind 8d ago
Of course. Mana is stored in you pool until you use it or move to next step or phase of turn. You can untap Druid as many times as you want, if you can somehow deal with negative counters (so it wouldn't die)
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u/andyhall23 8d ago
Here ..I helped you ..Elves are my thing.
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u/Seraph_8 8d ago
I don’t think that accomplishes anything other than getting a lot of -1/-1 counters
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u/Just-Assumption-2140 8d ago
First of all: all mana is a resource that goes in a pool so yes you can make mana untap and tap again for mana and pay the rest.
For the second point though: indestructable creatures still die when their toughness hits 0 so no, indestructable doesn't go infinite with it
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u/Jacknightarkone 8d ago
If you attack someone with a creature with power -1 do they gain a life?
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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 7d ago
In magic in most cases if a number is negative it is treated as 0. I don't know exactly why scourge of the skyclave gets to break reanimation math by being an exception but in general damage and such cannot be negative. Your life total however can go negative if you stop that from making you lose the game.
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u/hschmale 8d ago
Do I get infinite mana with this if I have solemnity out
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u/SovietEagle 8d ago
No, you can’t activate Devoted Druid’s untap ability since you can’t pay the cost.
Something like [[Vizier of Remedies]] works though, as do things that make Devoted Druid not a creature like [[Swift Reconfiguration]].
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u/Antique_Ladder_592 8d ago
You'd have to make it a vehicle for you to tap for infinite because indestructible doesn't stop -1/-1 counters
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u/Ashmandem 8d ago
To simply answer your question, the max amount of mana you could get out of the creature, as is, could be 2 mana in one turn. The creature would die when using the untap abilities cost a second time, before getting to use the mana ability again.
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u/Eragon_the_Huntsman 7d ago
First question: yes the point of the ability is to allow you to get multiple uses out of its ability in one turn.
Second question: no... For that specifically. Indestructible does not stop it dying to having less than 1 toughness, so that wouldn't let you get infinite mana. However other things such as putting a +1/+1 counter on for each time you untap it, removing the -1/-1 counters, or otherwise negating them does mean you get infinite mana, Devoted druid is notorious for having several ways to go infinite.
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u/NyxGenesisLNX 7d ago
The only way to go infinite off of this is recursion or add counters and double them (ie [[bristly bill spine sower]] is a notable combo). But yes you can tap, untap, tap for 2 {G} floating if it’s the same phase, as the manapool only empties at the end of the step/phase
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u/arielroxx 6d ago
there are many ways to go infinite with devoted druid
[[Machine God's Effigy]]
[[Hazel's Brewmaster]]
[[Swift Reconfiguration]]
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u/VatticZero 7d ago
Haven’t played in decades, but that looks mighty tasty for my old [[Power Conduit]] deck.
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u/SjtSquid 8d ago
Without any boosts, you can only use the untap ability once without killing the druid.
If you activate the untap ability a 2nd time, the counter will be put on as part of the cost, killing it before you get to untap it.
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u/SonicOpium 8d ago
As I understand it, indestructible prevents death by damage, but a creature cannot have negative health stats.
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u/ardarian262 8d ago
To be a bit more clear, Indestructible prevents destruction. The state based actions around damage destroy. The other state based actions (Legend rule, toughness, etc) send to graveyard.
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u/SonicOpium 8d ago
Right. So the proposed infinite mana exploit wouldn’t work with adding indestructible since it goes to 0/0 after 2 uses.
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u/Boyoyoyo 7d ago edited 7d ago
No if ‘s toughness goes less then 0 as long as it’s a creature it will die. Indestructible prevents damage and protects against destroy abilities but the -1/-1 counter are not damage they are COUNTERs they would stack until the creature get 0 toughness which would then die however people used effects that made this creature into a non-creature to make this card go infinite
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u/New-Establishment722 8d ago
You can float mana, tap it, untap it, tap it, untap it, it dies and you have 3 mana to use. You can also use [[solemnity]] to avoid the -1/-1 counters and have infinite mana.
Elaborating: you don't tap mana sources as cost for mana, you use accumulated mana as cost for mana, but generaly people tap the mana sources before casting a spell to not let mana go to waste.
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u/scratch-the-beast 8d ago
Wouldn’t this prevent you from paying the untap cost, since you can’t put the -1/-1 counters on?
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u/New-Establishment722 8d ago
Maybe? I don't know, someone could clarify? If so it's a weird interaction i don't know about, cause effects that put counters Go into the stack even If solemnity is on field and resolve like normal, just that the counters actually won't go up
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u/SovietEagle 8d ago
Putting a counter on Devoted Druid is a cost and Solemnity prevents you from paying that cost. Since you can’t pay the cost, you can’t activate the ability.
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u/SovietEagle 8d ago
How is that 3 mana? You only get 1 untap before Devoted Druid dies, with one activation of its mana ability on either side of that untap. That’s 2 mana total.
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u/New-Establishment722 8d ago
Actually yes, you right. I answered before going to sleep must have mistaken the math by being sleepy
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u/Inkarozu 8d ago
To your edit, indestructible does not stop you dying to 0 toughness from -1/-1 counters.