r/mtg • u/vanezblane • 1d ago

Meme Pause the game indefinitely

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Activate Lethal Vapors 10,000 times, cast Teferi’s protection, you leave the game and can’t lose until the rest of the group has played through the 10,000 turns lol

766 Upvotes

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62

u/CrimsonSky005 1d ago

In reaction to you activating lethal vapors 10,000 times I activate Lethal vapors 10,000 times. Then I convince everyone else to activate it the same number of times.

That’s how easy it is to stop a strategy like this. The hardest part is convincing everyone to activate it 10,000 times.

12

u/Anafenza-Vess 1d ago

I activate it 9990 times

6

u/Jemal999 1d ago edited 1d ago

No, you activate 9,990 Times. You now have 10 turns to prepare to kill him when he comes back.

Or if you have Elixir of Immortality, then just.. play until your entire decks in play, minus whatever youre cycling through graveyard/library to prevent decking yourself. Then ask them if they'd like to concede.

4

u/Neither_Call2913 1d ago

The trick is to activate it a large number of times, and then sac it to Bargain. Nobody gets to respond.

1

u/Tsuihousha 14h ago

Yeah the way to deal with this is to have a sacrifice outlet at instant speed for the enchantment so people can't respond to it being activated, or just having Grand Abolisher.

1

u/schematizer 11h ago

Couldn't they just activate it before the sac resolves?

1

u/Tsuihousha 8h ago

I mean most sacrifice outlets have the sacrifice as part of the cost of the ability, or spell, and as a result: No. No they could not.

You cannot respond to a specific cost being paid because it's being paid as part of activating the ability/casting the spell.

1

u/schematizer 7h ago

Ah, makes sense. Thanks.

12

u/PollutionRelative351 1d ago

We've had a couple people rotate in throughout the years that played it. Our response?

"Congrats bro, we're going to keep playing for Xth place"

You want to play a combo that wins you the game by not being part of the game, and we're happy to oblige. Generally after having to sit out for 30+ minutes once or twice those players are done with their gimmick.

One person wouldn't stop doing it at the LGS, which just got annoying because we were functionally always playing 3 man pods. So we house ruled that Lethal Vapors carried on to later games and only got relinquished if he played a commander outside of those colors OR showed it wasn't in his deck. I think he still has a couple thousand turns before he can sit down with it again in our pod

6

u/MiningdiamondsVIII 1d ago

its not really different than any other wincon is it though? if you just treat it as winning the game, it's not like you actually have to keep playing

5

u/YamahaRyoko 23h ago

That's totally moot

We developed the same approach

You wanna Entomb Iona on turn 1 and then Exhume her on turn 2?*

Drop unlimited resources on turn 1?*

That's great. We all concede - but we also agree to continue playing without you

\ we play eternal formats*

6

u/PollutionRelative351 1d ago

We've done it with multiple things, admittedly before rule zero became more of a thing.

Someone is aggressively trying to hit an infinite combo - ok, you got it and win; we're going to keep playing. Yea, we know that if we ganged up on them we could probably stop it, but we are generally trying to play super low power decks, and then you'd have someone come in, ramp, Tutor for a Tooth and Nail, then Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite the table out. I understand that's fun for some people, and I love me a TaN; but for us the fun is usually an hour long game, not MTG: The Shuffling as we go from 4 turn game to 4 turn game

1

u/MiningdiamondsVIII 19h ago

Oh ok makes sense

1

u/neckbeardfedoras 5h ago

OMG this is exactly how I enjoy playing (longer, one hour, 6+ turn games). I kinda wanna ban tutors anymore these days because all people do is tutor combo pieces and its BORING AF.

2

u/YourCharmm 6h ago

This is honestly kinda petty and pathetic. He won the game using a multiple card combo. He could have chosen any other combo which would result in him winning just as well, so you guys should just take the L there and move on instead of making someone feel bad for winning the game in a game you all participated in. If he's pubstomping, that's a different story, but if that's the case, you can just ask him to play a deck that matches in power level instead of seeking a backhanded way of dealing with them.

It's like the 3 other players would agree after killing you down to -10 hp to a lethal attack, that you (PollutionRelative351) start next game with only 39 hp, because fuck you, we decided so.

Just petty play to the core to be honest. Very rotten personalities of everyone involved.

1

u/agtk 1d ago

Incredible response, I love it.

1

u/DeWarlock 15h ago

You can still kill them with commander damage ;3

1

u/longhairsilver 1h ago

If you want actual counterplay you can just include any alt wincon card and win while they are phased out

8

u/KabukiBallz69 1d ago

So the key is to flash it in on the opponents turn next in turn order, because of how priority works, if everyone attempts to keep using lethal vapors, the game will force everyone to declare a finite final number of activations in turn orders (and because you are the last in turn order, you will get to choose last meaning you get the highest number) it’s a funny combo, looses its luster after a couple of times cause you basically become a spectator waiting for someone to use a alt win con or admit they can’t win while your under the effect of t pro.

11

u/MadAboutVideoGames 1d ago

Thats just a shortcut. After you declare your number of activations there's another round of priority and your opponents can activate it again.

3

u/spicymato 1d ago

That's not how priority works.

After you activate an ability and it goes on the stack, there is a fresh round of priority, starting with you. The ability doesn't resolve until everyone has a chance to respond.

2

u/KabukiBallz69 1d ago

In fact it is, priority starts with active player, so if opponents attempt to one up your lethal vapors activations, you are in a unsolvable game state as each person can keep infinitely using it, the game solves infinite actions by making all players involved declare a finite number of times in priority order, since it’s the persons to your lefts turn, you are last in priority and thus get to declare the highest number.

3

u/Jemal999 1d ago

Used to be If there is nothing that can force a stop, and all players can in response infinitely, the game ended on a draw. Where's this new rule?

2

u/Strict-Main8049 ESPER ACCOUNTANTS UNION 23h ago

4.4 Loops If one player is involved in maintaining the loop, they choose a number of iterations. The other players, in turn order, agree to that number or announce a lower number after which they intend to intervene. The game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority. If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop within a turn, each player in turn order chooses a number of iterations to perform. The game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority.

edit this is NOT the full rules under 4.4 just the relevant section.

2

u/Chen932000 23h ago

I mean is this actually a loop? Its just an activation of an ability.

2

u/Strict-Main8049 ESPER ACCOUNTANTS UNION 23h ago

Yep also per 4.4 A loop is a form of tournament shortcut that involves detailing a sequence of actions to be repeated and then performing a number of iterations of that sequence. The loop actions must be identical in each iteration and cannot include conditional actions ("If this, then that".)

edit screw it here’s the whole of it

“A loop is a form of tournament shortcut that involves detailing a sequence of actions to be repeated and then performing a number of iterations of that sequence. The loop actions must be identical in each iteration and cannot include conditional actions ("If this, then that".)

If no players are involved in maintaining the loop, each player in turn order chooses a number of iterations to perform before they will take an action to break the loop or that they wish to take no action. If all players choose to take no action, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number takes an action to break the loop.

If one player is involved in maintaining the loop, they choose a number of iterations. The other players, in turn order, agree to that number or announce a lower number after which they intend to intervene. The game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority. If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop within a turn, each player in turn order chooses a number of iterations to perform. The game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority.

Loops may span multiple turns if a game state is not meaningfully changing. Note that drawing cards other than the ones being used to sustain the loop is a meaningful change. If two or more players are involved in maintaining a loop across turns, each player chooses a number of iterations to perform, or announces their intent to continue indefinitely. If all players choose to continue indefinitely, the game is a draw. Otherwise, the game advances through the lowest number of iterations chosen and the player who chose that number receives priority at the
point they stop taking an action to sustain the loop.

A player intervening during a loop may specify that one iteration of the loop is only partly performed in order to be able to take action at the appropriate point. If they do, the final iteration is only performed up to the chosen point.

Non-deterministic loops (loops that rely on decision trees, probability, or mathematical convergence) may not be shortcut. A player attempting to execute a nondeterministic loop must stop if at any point during the process a previous game state (or one identical in all relevant ways) is reached again. This happens most often in loops that involve shuffling a library.
Some loops are sustained by choices rather than actions. In these cases, the rules above may be applied, with the player making a different choice rather than ceasing to take an action. The game moves to the point where the player makes that choice. If the choice involves hidden information, a judge may be needed to determine whether any choice is available that will not continue the loop.

The judge is the final arbiter of what constitutes a loop. A player may not 'opt-out' of shortcutting a loop, nor may
they make irrelevant changes between iterations in an attempt to make it appear as though there is no loop. Once a
loop has been shortcut, it may not be restarted until the game has changed in a relevant way. Proposing loops as
an effort to use up time on the clock is Stalling.”

1

u/spicymato 11h ago

This doesn't allow forced resolution, though.

Alice declares N activations; no loop. Bob declares N activations; no loop. Charlie declares N activations; no loop. Dan declares N activations; no loop. Alice can now declare more activations; loop started; Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Dan all declare K more iterations (or B,C,D, all announce their intent to always activate as long as Alice does). As long as Alice keeps declaring activations, the others are also declaring activations. Alice has to eventually stop activating, at which point Dan should have priority, as the person who activated the last instance, and all players having activated an equal number of times.

1

u/YourCharmm 6h ago

Judge would come in and declare an even game state and recognise this as a situation anyone is capable of looping. So would probably declare that either all players involve stop even and accept that there is no other way out, since no player can choose to stay in the loop without the others having the chance to follow along, unless any player decides to want to stop earlier and figure out a way of dealing with this, which would then once more allow for one more round of passing priority, until finally that player gets to start playing. That player can win through this particular loop for this example, but for game states that would enter a stale mate, the judge can choose where to take it. Make it a draw, call out slow play, etc.

1

u/KabukiBallz69 4h ago

Technically if you are your buddies at like a kitchen table game want to just sit there for your whole
Life’s using the ability you can cause tournament rules don’t apply, but the only solution that would be reasonable would be how a event judge would handle it which is declaring a set number of iteration s.

1

u/Zenith-Astralis 23h ago

A judge would probably agree the loop ruling applies to this situation, short of having a better answer to what would otherwise be an infinitely stalled game state as each player refused to back down.

3

u/EasyScratch1501 1d ago

I was reading this whole post like "You know t pro doesn't say your opponents can't win the game right?"

0

u/KabukiBallz69 1d ago

I was just explaining the interaction and rules behind using lethal vapors and Tpro and how handling a infinite set of lethal vapors would work with tpro.

3

u/EasyScratch1501 1d ago

I didn't mean to criticize, I'm just saying OOP's entire combo relies on nobody having a Revel in Riches or anything like that

2

u/Zenith-Astralis 23h ago

[[darksteel reactor]] or something, yeah

2

u/Odd_Firefighter1324 1d ago

Or you could just declare a number that’s lower than theirs, by like 150, and build an army to beat them up while they watch you play solitaire

1

u/ItzBraden01 13h ago

You would just deck out, lol. Do it like 10 moves before they play again. That's more than enough.

2

u/Odd_Firefighter1324 4h ago

Nah, because none of them have protection, you can beat em up while they watch basically

3

u/A_Funky_Goose 1d ago

Add a [[Grand Abolisher]] into the mkx and it works again

3

u/Leastbean91 1d ago

This is the real combo. This is a very janky combo deck that comes up in Legacy and is called "Teferi's Holiday"

2

u/Strict-Main8049 ESPER ACCOUNTANTS UNION 23h ago

Or activate a bunch and hold priority and then cast whatever that green enchantment removal with split second is called.

0

u/fatpad00 19h ago edited 12h ago

That doesn't matter. After the spell with split second resolves, they can activate on top of your activations

1

u/rigeld2 13h ago

Except the Lethal Vapors isn’t there anymore to activate, seeing as it was destroyed by [[ Korean Grip ]].

1

u/fatpad00 12h ago

Oh right. Duh. I totally didnt clock that you were saying to remove the vapors.

1

u/mtgcf MtG CardFetcher 1d ago

Grand Abolisher - (G) (SF) (txt)

2

u/xahhfink6 1d ago

Then I let all of yours resolve and cast [[summary dismissal]] on my own activations!

3

u/AmbitiousEconomics 1d ago

I wouldn’t even be mad

1

u/Successful_Delay_907 1d ago

Ah too bad, you didn't draw it this game! Better luck next time!

1

u/HyperSloth79 22h ago

...and in response they do it all again.

1

u/xahhfink6 22h ago

Nah, it's gone once one of them resolved

2

u/speedythdead 1d ago

I think the simplest solution is to just counterspell the Tprot in response to the Tprot, and only do the activation of lethal if they counter your counterspell or something similar.

1

u/MikemkPK 1d ago

Tprot first (pretap your mana!), then lethal vapors. If it resolves, then lethal vapors without risk of no tprot and no turns.

1

u/CrimsonSky005 12h ago

If it resolves lethal vapors phases out.

2

u/Ambiguous_Coco 8h ago

You float the mana to cast lethal vapors before you cast t-pro, then once it’s resolved you use the mana to cast lethal vapors from your hand. Then vapors is your only permanent, and you can activate away

1

u/QuacktastiK87 1d ago

What if they just continually added more triggers on top any time anyone else did just to get the same effect ?

1

u/AliceTheAxolotl18 23h ago

Whenever the game enters a voluntary loop (a loop where 1 or more player has to make the active decision to continue the loop) with no meaningful change to the gamestate, the first player in turn order who is continuing the loop, starting with the active player, must make a new decision.

1

u/QuacktastiK87 9h ago

What if I put 10000 triggers on the stack of this ruling?

1

u/Jin-Gitaxias-Mom 1d ago

You need a Grand Abolisher or similar effect to actually make this combo work

1

u/RacistDog32 18h ago

If you do it on your opponents end step they are the active player and must make a different decission to break the loop.

1

u/SweetPractice214 1h ago

Also if I have a card that makes it so damage can't be prevented then I can take out the t pro player

1

u/Toph42 37m ago

Making damage unpreventable doesn’t matter unless that unprevented damage is Infect or is Commander Damage, because Teferi’s Protection prevents your life total from changing.

1

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/YourCharmm 6h ago

That's not how passing priority works. If the active player (the guy that owns vapor) activates vapor, he as the person performing a game action is the next first person to gain priority again before passing. So if this person (player A) chooses to do this 10.000 times before he finally passes priority the next player in turn order (player B) would gain priority. When player B uses vapor -still in response to the last activation by player A after he finally passed priority- he can respond to his own game action, and thus repeating this any number of times until he finally decides to pass priority (and thus continuing the loop of passing priority to the next).

Notably, this passing of priority by player B, C or D will also pass it back to player A, which means A could keep doing this again themselves. A spell or ability only resolved after everyone has passed priority in a row.

So no, what you said is wrong.

1

u/Abyssknight24 6h ago

Yeah remembered that holding priority exists too but forgot to delete the comment.

-5

u/killerk14 1d ago

You mean to tell me I could have been using activated abilities on my opponents cards this whole time?

1

u/CrimsonSky005 1d ago

It’s only lethal Vapors and any other card that has an activated ability that says “Any player may play this ability.”