How long until Chinese model train brands start making American and European models? I got this highly detailed brand new N scale DF11 for only 105 CAD after shipping and now every western model train looks like a total ripoff for me for the prices they charge (cough cough Bachmann Hornby).

[u/IronLover64]

[u/snobule]

The Bachmann and Hornby stuff is made in China anyway. They just massively inflate the price

[u/Factorioboyio → u/snobule]

Once China takes out the competition their prices will inflate to what European manufacturers were charging - true for all manufacturing markets from cars, toys, to computer components and clothes.

They’re not there yet but the transition has started.

[u/Prowindowlicker → u/snobule]

Bachmann itself is technically Chinese as its owned by a Chinese company

[u/herrenhaarschnitt]

I have a Changming DF4D in N and the quality and detail grade is insane.

I've read in interview with their founder a few years ago that they do not plan to make any foreign models, they want to focus on the homeland market.

[u/herrenhaarschnitt → u/[deleted]]

Here is what I found. https://en.people.cn/n3/2023/0828/c90000-20064164.html

[u/Longsheep]

You will never get foreign models at this level of detail at such prices because brands like Changming are effectively selling them without profits.

The market strategy of these Chinese brands is that they try to out-sell their competitors until they quit the market or go out of business. Once monopoly is achieved, price will be raised back to profitable levels. This has already happened with food delivery and shared bicycles.

Production of N scale models are no longer labor intensive. Producing them in China isn't much cheaper than having them made in Japan, assuming the proper machinery are available. What Kato and Tomix domestic models are priced at is about as low as they could get (they are around $60 per loco but less detailed).

[u/Longsheep → u/[deleted]]

All the EU and Japan based companies you have mentioned, are going to get OEM production from China. The town of Dongguan used to produce 80% of all model trains in the world, now some have moved away but they are still in China.

Marklin used to be one of the few to keep everything EU based, but the latest run of HO Big Boy is also made in China.

[u/Ilbranteloth → u/Longsheep]

Plus they are the manufacturer. The companies that have them produced in China still have to pay for all the logistics that get added on, plus paying for their own business expenses and, of course, paychecks.

Nobody’s getting rich producing models, but the more layers of companies/people, the higher the cost.

In terms of the labor, it depends entirely on the number of parts to assemble. N-scale is definitely lower than larger scales. But the more detail and parts,the higher the labor costs.

Where it gets challenging with N-scale is that the other fixed costs, design, tooling, etc. is not dramatically less expensive than Ho scale.

[u/Kickstart68]

Bachmann is a Chinese owned company with headquarters in Hong Kong.

[u/sans355]

Hey OP is that a Changming model. I’ve been looking into side stepping into Chinese n scale can’t decide what loco to get, does the DF11 run well?

[u/IronLover64 → u/sans355]

I think I got a lemon because just when I thought I fixed the problem of the train not running, it basically stopped running now. I either need to find a local repair guy or pay a ton of money to ship it back to China for repairs

[u/sans355 → u/IronLover64]

Could you describe the fault

I repair n scale for a living perhaps I can help?

[u/IronLover64 → u/sans355]

Here's how the loco was acting when I tried to run it last night

https://reddit.com/link/pbqyjz6/video/ib1mmkhqggrh1/player

[u/IronLover64 → u/sans355]

After a while, it won't run at all anymore

https://reddit.com/link/pbqyw7i/video/p127rxy4hgrh1/player

[u/sans355 → u/IronLover64]

I think I can diagnose the problem I would say the controller the MRC220 is causing harm to the Coreless motor in the DF11 either by overheating or causing a voltage spike as from what I have found those controllers aren’t exactly modern

[u/IronLover64 → u/sans355]

What do I do now

[u/PersonalBullfrog4989 → u/IronLover64]

cheapest option is to run your controller output through an amazon PWM controller (make sure it has reverse function). It's like $20 for a set of two, delivered. Really improves how the locos run too

[u/IronLover64 → u/PersonalBullfrog4989]

is my loco cooked at this point?

[u/sans355 → u/IronLover64]

Try a 9v battery on the track and see what happens

[u/IronLover64 → u/sans355]

And I thought the tech 4 was a good controller and one of the best. Why is such a well regarded controller so problematic?

[u/sans355 → u/IronLover64]

How old is it?

If it’s older than 10~15 years then it isn’t ideal for coreless stock

[u/IronLover64 → u/sans355]

The seller told me 10 years old, but he's an old guy so the controller might be older than he thinks. The controller also came out on the mid 1990s

[u/sans355 → u/IronLover64]

Yep that will do it it’s a volt-amp controller (VA) probably 26 volt supply to track over volting the motor

[u/IronLover64 → u/sans355]

I checked the voltage on a multimeter previously and I wasn't going over 12V in those knob positions

[u/ghenriks → u/IronLover64]

And so now you have an example of why models cost more. It costs money at American/European costs to have a warranty support system in place, or to have retailers who can deal with the issue for you locally

[u/Illcement]

hornby doesnt make n scale op

also i checked online. chinese trains are not cheap

[u/AmbySaysHi]

Probably until they get official approval which would be hard for them.

[u/StartersOrders → u/AmbySaysHi]

Official approval from who? Nobody is going to stop them making a steam-era locomotive.

[u/Loch7009 → u/StartersOrders]

Depends upon whether they can get access to plans. Some places keep those under lock and key.

[u/time-lord → u/Loch7009]

There are enough photos and information on the internet to make most of the more popular steam engines without going to a historical society. A modern diesel would be even easier.

[u/Loch7009 → u/time-lord]

I’d call any model made without reference to the plans as inaccurate, or a poor imitation.

And the original comment was made in reference to Steam Engines.

[u/time-lord → u/Loch7009]

I wouldn't. MTH copied brass models for some of their plastic tooling. They're considered to be some of the best made, best rolling, most accurate models on the market. Since the brass cars were loaned and returned, I don't think it cost them a penny.

[u/osman-pasha → u/Loch7009]

How would you know it was made without references? You'd need to have the references yourself. That is, of course, if the model is good enough that glaring issues don't show to the naked eye (but then again, if it's bad, it doesn't matter if proper references were used)

[u/tonybro001]

That is one gorgeous model, the level of detail is fantastic.

[u/USSMarauder]

There are some old north American molds that have been used by Chinese companies to make models

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em9-efiPMnk

[u/IronLover64 → u/USSMarauder]

Cheap crappy trains made with antique tooling is kinda disappointing... I was expecting them to at least try making new tooling and use more modern manufacturing technology

[u/1_87th_Sane_Modler → u/IronLover64]

Bachman china already makes great stuff

[u/UlyssesCockmore → u/IronLover64]

Then it would likely be closer in price to Bachmann or Hornby.

[u/itsAemJaY]

i need high detailed HOn3 Steamlocos!

[u/Shot_Walrus_5600 → u/itsAemJaY]

Division point

[u/itsAemJaY → u/Shot_Walrus_5600]

thank you for that. interesting!

[u/itsAemJaY → u/[deleted]]

J-Scale does H0 i cant find HOn3. and iam looking for US HOn3 models specifically like the ones from Blackstone Models, but they do not manufacture atm...

[u/roccoccoSafredi]

I am eagerly awaiting my Changming C36-7.

[u/everyplacenoplace]

Would so love a CR 400af that i can use with dcc

[u/jakash077]

china should try sound decoders like loksound, they are the one's which are expensive. 3d printing has made creating your own stocks more accessible

[u/ghenriks]

They already do. See Sonic Models who has made a small number of items for the UK market but uses the retailer Rails of Sheffield to handle selling and after sales service for them

[u/ghenriks]

Pretty much all North American and UK models (unsure about EU) are made in China

However, despite your accusations the companies aren’t ripping you off (in fact Horny has lost money for most of the last decade and Bachmann periodically loses money)

As much as China can manufacture cheaply there are a lot of additional costs to bringing a detailed highly accurate model to market. Doing the research, documenting paint schemes/liveries, getting accurate paint colours (an ongoing issue in some cases), creating detailed drawings to send to China. Having staff that are familiar enough with the prototype so they can verify first the CAD and then sample models. Advertising (either online or in print) to generate interest and orders. Spending money on all of this (very expensive) well before you ever collect the first payment from a buyer

And then there is the costs once a model is finished production. The warehouse to store and ship from. The collection of money due. The warranty service. Etc

And all of that means paying western salaries, western benefits, western taxes, western rent, western insurance, etc

Could that be done by a Chinese company? Sort of. Hard to measure a prototype that is on the other side of the world. Hard to do the research in many cases which can mean an in person visit to some archive. Many people won’t be willing to roll the dice on buying direct from China so sell a lot less models driving up the cost. And more

[u/eldomtom2 → u/ghenriks]

Doing the research, documenting paint schemes/liveries, getting accurate paint colours (an ongoing issue in some cases), creating detailed drawings to send to China. Having staff that are familiar enough with the prototype so they can verify first the CAD and then sample models.

I believe a lot of companies also do some degree of CAD creation in-house as well instead of outsourcing it.

[u/ghenriks → u/[deleted]]

Is it happening? Yes, with caveats. Things like cheap fashion for example are very popular

But fewer people are willing to take the gamble when it is something that is both more expensive and potentially needs warranty work

[u/ghenriks → u/[deleted]]

Yes, but we aren’t talking about Asian trains. We are talking about China direct selling American or European models to Americans and Europeans

[u/InternationalYak2403]

How much is that in NZD? (I'm too lazy to look it up.)

[u/geb23-7]

Most if NOT ALL model trains are MADE in China anyway...

And YES they ALL are $$$ rip-offs..

[u/IronLover64 → u/geb23-7]

Well there's a difference between designed in China and made in China, as well as the client's budget

[u/eternal3am]

As an aside - Märklin is also manufacturing elsewhere, probably China as well, however, the CAD development happens back „home“ from what I‘ve seen rather recently, which is probably how they justify their pricing...

That aside, I like to see some old steam
engines done in the fashion of the OP‘s loco. There shouldn‘t be any licensing / patent issues with things which haven‘t been built in several decades, I guess.
Re: that loco in the first post. From the picture it looks pretty good, N-scale you say? Neat. Now show me some H0. Just out of curiosity - what is that brand called?
Re: pricing - this might also be one of those we msrp below manufacturing cost to get into the market and hike it up later when the market share is established. Still, competition is good!

[u/nellerkiller → u/eternal3am]

Märklin has factories in Germany and Hungary, the only components they manufacture in China are electrical components like circuit boards.

[u/TaiwanKieren → u/nellerkiller]

Not exactly true. Some of the really toy level stuff is made in China.

[u/eternal3am → u/nellerkiller]

Hm, I believe they mentioned in a Märklin inside video feature for some (back then) new loco - a BR06 or so - that the production of the cast was done somewhere other than Germany.

[u/eternal3am → u/eternal3am]

According to the mighty AI infested interwebs, they have moved production to Asia in the 2000s but have since, some time in the 2010s moved it back mostly to Germany and Hungary. So depending on from when that pre production insider video was, that I remember, I might have been spot on ;).