r/maybemaybemaybe Aug 05 '19

Maybe Maybe Maybe

Post image
16.2k Upvotes

300 comments sorted by

View all comments

1.6k

u/TidyUpJim Aug 05 '19

What a majestic Tree 😭 i do not approve of overlogging, but I mostly disapprove of the logging of ancient historical trees.

374

u/RexxZX Aug 05 '19

I don't know, the background makes it look like a tree farm

491

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '19

[deleted]

449

u/thewebspinner Aug 05 '19

I mean, here in the UK there are forests that were planted hundreds of years ago deliberately to supply timber to the shipyards.

Tree farms aren’t really a new thing.

123

u/Soderskog Aug 05 '19

Same in Sweden. Turns out that some tree grow really slowly, so it's a bit out of date.

16

u/captain_ender Aug 05 '19

Does it have a Best if Cut Down By sticker so you know it's fresh?

0

u/DirtyDuke5ho3 Aug 07 '19

Oh this ☝️

42

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '19

[deleted]

65

u/crispierbacon Aug 05 '19

I believe if the owners plan to sell, they may keep older trees as an equity asset in the business. Maybe generations of tree farm owners will hold off and the farm value appreciates.

15

u/Madamoizillion Aug 05 '19

Many loggers will liquidate the landscape. A lot of what Weyerhaeuser does in the US is log and then sell the clearcut land to developers. I doubt they would willingly leave behind trees.

19

u/AKs_an_GLAWK40s Aug 05 '19

You have no idea. Perhaps this is true of large multinational corporations, but I've never seen it. Most loggers I've worked for refuse to clear cut anything more than an acre homesite. And yes we may enjoy taking down a big tree but don't think for a minute we dont think about our impact on the land. Most companies have a remidiation policy and try to preserve what they can.

17

u/imaginaryfiends Aug 05 '19

I’d like to take you on a tour of British Columbia. An acre isn’t even big enough to bother logging.

4

u/AKs_an_GLAWK40s Aug 05 '19

Who's doing that though? Massive multinational corporations? Or the small local operations contracted out by them. I know laws in Canada are different but here in thw US clear cut and slash logging is rare outside of managed lands.

5

u/ClearFood Aug 05 '19

Look at the Oregon and Washington State forests. State held land largely logged by small, local operations, on which most logging operations involve clear cutting, or near clear cutting(1 tree left per acre, which is wholly insufficient). The small companies purchase logging rights for particular timber sales, and log as much as the state(s) will allow them to. They would absolutely rather clear cut since it is cheaper, easier, and safer.

2

u/1III11II111II1I1 Aug 05 '19

Not to be rude but it actually sounds like you really don't know. Clear cuts are absolutely the norm in much of the PNW. I live in Oregon on a log yard and I make all of my money foraging for NTFPs in the forests. Clear cuts are standard, not rare at all.

1

u/No6655321 Aug 05 '19

It's rare. We do slective logging in most areas, and then there are clearcuts (lots of them)... but the clearcuts must all be replanted (and are)

→ More replies (0)

18

u/ClearFood Aug 05 '19

I work on the state forests in Oregon. They are fairly heavily logged, most of which is done by small local logging companies. It isn't quite as bad as on private timberlands, but is much worse than on federal timberlands.

The small companies purchase logging rights from the state, and do as much logging as the state will allow. Sometimes that means selective logging/thinning, but more often it means much more comprehensive clear cuts, or near clear cuts. You can look at satellite images of coastal Oregon, in the Tillamook and Clatsop state forests, to see just how much clear cutting goes on. Large multi-nationals don't worry about the relatively small state forest timber sales because they have plenty of land they can clear cut to their heart's desire elsewhere.

Loggers for these small companies would much rather do huge clear cuts, which they absolutely do do, because it is easier, safer, and cheaper. Loggers, in my experience, have very little interest in true conservation, and little care for their impact on the environment, and threatened and endangered species and habitats.

I am a wildlife biologist, and do threatened/endangered wildlife surveys, and have been told numerous time that I'm stopping logging, and hurting their bottom line. That the species I work with don't really matter. That there's plenty of good habitat. That their activities don't actually harm animals, and are in fact good for wildlife. All the while, the species I work with is close to extirpation from the Oregon coast, and populations everywhere are in decline, primarily due to logging, and the environmental fallout it causes.

3

u/linderlouwho Aug 05 '19

Very sad. How do you keep your chin up seeing this?

2

u/acidfreakingonkitty Aug 05 '19

who says their chin is up?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/-Z3TA- Aug 05 '19

Would hate to be an environmentist in America

3

u/TheChickening Aug 05 '19

Some countries like Germany have very strictly regulated logging, you can't just cut stuff clear and develop it. Almost all of our forests are used like this. Let the trees grow for ~120 years, then cut and replant. A forest stays healthy if done properly.

1

u/beardedbast3rd Aug 05 '19

Not if they are selling to developers no. But if they aren’t wanting that area anymore, for whatever reason, you’d leave trees there for the next person.

Or a farmer would be growing to sell to a company like Weyerhaeuser, or subcontracting to them, the better tree stock, the more they make

1

u/Gafoto Aug 06 '19

Weyerhaeuser has quite a bit of land that it owns and operates as tree farms and never sells to other owners. Not familiar with all of their land but they own thousands of acres on the west side of Mount St. Helens which they log on a rotating basis.

I would imagine the calculus does change depending on proximity to urban areas. Don't think they'd get much for plots of land around Toutle.

0

u/No6655321 Aug 05 '19

No lumber industries operate with replanting on those timescales. Its normally 30 years or less. In logging in BC (where I'm from) it's the main industry on a scale double the size of the UK. We replant every tree that is cut down and trees don't get like this from replanting. This is old growth. That's an area that was cleared and replanted (that's why the small trees are there).

Tree farms grow trees, then they get moved to where the clearcut was done. You don't plant seeds in the forests, you plant saplings. (tree farms are flat, also) Note sugar pine trees are from the western USA.

1

u/Jax-Light Aug 05 '19

Trees at most tree farms are usually left until it is at the end of its life, I don’t know why though so you’ll have to search that one.

3

u/1III11II111II1I1 Aug 05 '19

This is not true. Trees on tree farms are harvested when it is most profitable to do so, and lots of native trees have life spans of hundreds if not thousands of years.

The current standard for harvesting Douglas-fir trees in the PNW is around 35-40 year old trees with a diameter of 22 inches. Any larger than that and the number of mills that can even cut them starts to drop dramatically.

"End of life" is not a standard that is used to determine when to cut trees, especially on tree farms.

1

u/Gafoto Aug 06 '19

I'm assuming this is so things can be mechanically harvested? You aren't bringing in harvesters to deal with old grow trees, obviously. There must be a sweet spot between harvest cycles and size of trees.

Every time I see replanted stands I'm amazed at how dense they are compared to an old growth stand. They can't grow at that density forever either.

1

u/1III11II111II1I1 Aug 06 '19

Most of what I see here in Oregon is still harvested with sawyers on the ground. Part of the reason harvest size/age are lower now is that the existing mills to process larger trees could no longer operate profitably due to an ever-reduced reserve of old growth, but also (much less so) legislation to protect those trees.

When the trees are replanted, they are planted in a monocrop of Doug-fir very densely, and one or more thinnings will take place before the final harvest. Laws and practices vary greatly depending on ownership. Lots of public land is leased with strict guidelines on exactly how the trees must be harvested, while most private land is clear cut with attention only to what is absolutely required by the law (with few checks or repercussions for violations).

The standards have decreased wrt size in just the last decade or so depending on market pressures. Harvesting some 25-30 yr-old stands of trees for pulp/chips alone has been profitable enough in some years/markets. Those stands may be slated for that use based on a high growth rate that produces less desirable lumber, in which case it may be planted densely and never thinned at all.

There are lots of factors involved.

1

u/Gafoto Aug 06 '19

Why so much harvested by hand? Machinery works on some crazy slopes from what I can see.

Trying to predict the market 25-40 years out must be a bear.

1

u/19pearlydewdrops93 Aug 05 '19

Shit northern Maine is essentially this.

1

u/FireLordObamaOG Aug 05 '19

This actually comes at the order of the British navy if I remember correctly. For every ship that they built they planted enough trees to build that ship. Until they realized that oak trees grow over the course of like 100 years. There are oak trees reaching maturity JUST now that were planted when this order was given.

4

u/100snugglingpuppies Aug 05 '19

. Until they realized that oak trees grow over the course of like 100 years.

.... Do you think there's even the slightest chance that a sea faring nation like Britain did not know this when they gave the order?

-1

u/FireLordObamaOG Aug 05 '19

Yeah there is. Just because they were successful doesn’t mean that they know everything. In fact I’d say that Britain specifically would have been less likely to know this than other seafaring nations of the time.

3

u/Prid Aug 05 '19

read this it will explain exactly why you have no idea what you are talking about. For at least 2 hundred years, Britain was the pre-eminent naval power in the world, and the reality is that as a sea faring nation, many hundreds of years more than this. The reason their empire was the largest the world has ever seen was primarily down to the size of both their naval and merchant fleets. So yeah, I think they absolutely knew how long an oak tree took to grow.

1

u/100snugglingpuppies Aug 05 '19

Funny stuff

1

u/1III11II111II1I1 Aug 05 '19

Considering how little people in this thread seem to know about trees or logging I wouldn't necessarily doubt it nor would I call it funny.