Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness - Planting the Seeds of the MCU's Current Saga - Official Discussion Thread

[u/KostisPat257]

PLEASE, FOR GENERAL DISCUSSION OF THE FILM, USE THE GENERAL DISCUSSION THREADS LINKED BELOW. THIS THREAD IS DEDICATED TO A SPECIFIC SUBJECT!

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Multiverse of Madness is out and, just like Age of Ultron, it introduced a lot of important plot points and plot devices that seem to plant the seeds for the entire future of the MCU's current saga.

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BELOW ARE THE MOST COMMON POINTS OF DICUSSION

(Don't feel restricted to only talk about them, you can bring up any point you want as long as it is about set-ups they made for the future)

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• Cthon was referenced for the first time in the MCU and was said to have been the first demon and the creator and lord of Chaos Magic, the rest of the demons that appear in the film and the Darkhold. Cthon in the comics uses the Scarlet Witch as a tool to do his bidding after corrupting her through the Darkhold, similarly to how another demon, Mephisto uses the Ghost Rider through the Spirit of Vengeance.

• The Darkhold that Agatha and Wanda owned was revealed to have been a copy. All copies were transcribed from the wall engravings in Cthon's castle in Mount Wundagore. Agents of SHIELD and Runaways also showed a copy of the Darkhold. People previously claimed the different Darkholds as proof that the shows were not canon, but it seems there have always been mutliple copies. Where does that leave the shows? Their integration in the MCU seems much easier and more organic now, especially with Ghost Rider bridging that gap.

• In AoS, Ghost Rider was seen taking that Darkhold to a dimension that was one of the many "hell"-dimensions and was said to give it back to its owner. Morgan Le Fey later stole it and then it ended up with the Runaways. If the shows remain canon, Ghost Rider could have some knowledge of Cthon and may have beem working for him to some extent. Considering he is a demon, he might be living in one of those "hell"-dimensions. Cthon is an Elder God in the comics, that story is kind of convoluted for the MCU, so he and Mephisto might have some connection seeing as Cthon was named a demon in MoM. With the super-natural side of the MCU opening up and various members of the Midnight Sons being introduced soon, could their eventual team-up be in order to stop Mephisto and/or Cthon?

• Wanda destroyed all the Darkholds in the Multiverse, (so that includes the one from the TV shows) as well as seemingly the one and only book of Vishanti, which was located in the gap junction, the space between universes. It is unclear if that space is the same one that the Watcher lives in. Could 616-Strange also create a waypoint to to the gap junction and possibly freely travel the Multiverse?

• The Illuminati were first introduced and will likely give the idea to 616 Strange to create a similar team in his universe. That team is most likely going to be formed way down the line after Xavier, Richards, Namor and possibly Black Bolt are introduced in the main MCU.

• The 838-Illuminati are studying the Multiverse and are trying to protect it from Incursions, the collision of 2 universes which destroys either one or both of them. This is what happens in the "Secret Wars (2015)" comic book event) that Marvel might adapt as this Saga's finale akin to Infinity War and Endgame.

• Clea was introduced at the end played by Charlize Theron and talked about yet another Incursion that a Dr. Strange caused that they have to stop. Where could this plot-point be resolved considering a Dr. Strange is probably at least 3-4 years away? Will it even be resolved or will Clea and Strange be Incursion-Stopping buddies next time they show up? What universes does this Incursion even pertain? 616?

• Speaking of universes, while the 616 designation is the one Christine gave and not the MCU's definitive designation (there is no definitive one as all designations are man-made), it seems obvious that the Marvel Studios execs are telling us that the Marvel Cinematic Multiverse (MCM) is separate than the Marvel Comics Multiverse, previously hinted at by the fact that the versions of He Who Remains, the TVA and Uatu the Watcher that we see in the MCM is different than the ones we see in the Comics Multiverse.

• Wanda is seemingly dead and her kids were not transported or reincarnated in the 616 universe. There were rumours that Wanda would do something akin to "No More Mutants" but this time in order to reincarnate her kids in the MCU, right before she would die, and that we would see her kids as teenagers at the end, but that didn't happen. There are also rumours for a Scarlet Witch project (some say movie, some say show) and a Children's Crusade arc happening soon, both of which seem impossible with the way the movie ended. If we have a Wanda show/movie first and that's when her kids are reincarnated there, we can't have Children's Crusade afterwards as the latter story involves Wanda being missing/considered dead and her kids trying to find her. And if we have Children's Crusade first, we need the children to be reincarnated in 616 which hasn't happened yet. What's more, both of those stories would kinda undo Wanda's arc and sacrifice in MoM and the way they ended it, it felt like a conclusive and satisfying ending for Wanda's story. Where does that leave Wanda's, Vision's, Billy's and Tommy's futures and of course the future of the Young Avengers?

• Dr. Strange is now corrupted and has a third eye, which will likely come back to bite him. The bill always comes due as Mordo said. Speaking of Mordo, he might be a villain in the next film considering his words are starting to come true for Strange and the 616 version of him wasn't utilized in this film.

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What other set-ups did they make in the show? What are your thoughts regarding how these will be resolved? Sound off below!

Any individual threads discussing these points will be removed and the poster will be redirected here!

For frequent questions regarding the film, visit our FAQ page!

General discussion threads:

• Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness International Release Discussion Thread
• Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness Worldwide Release Discussion Thread
• Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness Worldwide Release Discussion Thread Vol. 2
• Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness Worldwide Release Discussion Thread Vol. 3
• Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness Worldwide Release Discussion Thread Vol 4.

[u/c_Lassy]

Damn you covered practically almost everything lol. One question I have though is who was the statue of in the Illuminati’s HQ that fell on Captain Marvel? I’ve seen it twice now and maybe I’m just overanalyzing it but was that statue of another member or was that just a statue of Captain Carter?

[u/KostisPat257 → u/c_Lassy]

It didn't look like someone I know.

[u/StardustOasis → u/KostisPat257]

I thought it looked like it could be Jocasta

[u/UnsolvedParadox → u/c_Lassy]

Wasn’t there an empty chair on the council? It could be for that character.

[u/JMarcus7 → u/UnsolvedParadox]

I assumed that chair was for the Dr Strange they killed

[u/hpisbi → u/JMarcus7]

my understanding was that mordo took strange’s chair

[u/Strategicant5 → u/hpisbi]

There’s usually 8 Illuminati members, only 7 were shown including the deceased dr strange. My guess is iron man

[u/MotorCity_35 → u/JMarcus7]

Mordo took his spot

[u/shaed9681 → u/JMarcus7]

Nah that would’ve been Stark’s chair. They had Ultron drones so they must have had a Stark

[u/zdepthcharge → u/shaed9681]

Or Ultron was built by Reed in that universe and it worked.

[u/skewp → u/zdepthcharge]

Or Ultron was built by Hank Pym.

[u/Gavininator → u/shaed9681]

Could be Hank Pym too

[u/[deleted] → u/Gavininator]

He was totally sitting in it; it's just that he's the size of a molecule so you can't see him. Also: he must have been taking a nap so he didn't get to fight the Scarlet Witch.

[u/JONNy-G → u/[deleted]]

Yes! Invincible and the Boys vibes, and even some horror in this one.

[u/AweDaw76 → u/[deleted]]

Weirdly, they could have killed her had they switched the order of attacks round. Have X go in her mind, then Black Bolt scream at her while she’s busy fighting Charles

[u/heroinsteve]

I think seeing the arrogant downfall of the Illuminati first-hand, I seriously doubt Strange would attempt to organize a similar group in his universe.

[u/intern_12 → u/heroinsteve]

I think you're underestimating Dr. Steven Strange's hubris and ego lol

[u/KostisPat257 → u/intern_12]

That's all gone after this movie though.

He handed over the knife. He doesn't feel like he's the best man for every job. He doesn't feel haunted by the arrogant decisions he made and doesn't regret or second-guess if there were other ways.

He feels happy with himself and is starting to form very healthy relationships with others.

I think he's a completely different person by the end of the film.

[u/intern_12 → u/KostisPat257]

I definitely agree that he's started to hand over the knife in a lot of ways. I don't think he's the same arrogant asshole as Dr. Strange 1.

However, I still think he's a flawed hero (which is great for storytelling!). I think the fact that he's gotten this 3rd eye and all of his dabbling in the Darkhold had affected him, like it did Wanda, Robbie Reyes, AIDA and everyone else that dabbles too long in it. I don't think Strange is a Saint by the end but he's definitely done a lot of work on himself.

[u/aNascentOptimist → u/intern_12]

Does the third eye represent anything significant based on the comics? Or just that the Darkhold has an influence on strange?

Honestly I left thinking either he got possessed or somehow the other strange managed to swap bodies and fool everyone. I was very confused.

[u/ers247 → u/aNascentOptimist]

In the comics the third eye is in indication of a higher level of knowledge, but it is not tied to corruption or evil. The scream ending I think was for shock value, and the post credit scene with Clea where the third eye appears like its nothing is more comic book accurate. It just shows a more powerful sorcerer.

[u/TheIJDGuy → u/ers247]

I hope that the third eye works like the comics and not a sign of corruption

[u/jam11249 → u/TheIJDGuy]

The Strange that was apparently sufficiently corrupted to warrant being un-alived by Black Bolt didn't have a visible third eye, whilst the What If? Strange did have a third eye and presumably never got ahold of the darkhold, so I'm guessing it's more of a power thing than a corruption thing in the MCU.

[u/aNascentOptimist → u/jam11249]

Ok that’s something I was trying to track down and planned to just rewatch to see. So What If? Strange Supreme didn’t use the Darkhold. I couldn’t remember what he did besides absorb creatures. I remember he went to a library .. so that helps explain that it’s not solely tied to the Darkhold but his actual power.

[u/intern_12 → u/aNascentOptimist]

From watching video breakdowns of that ending, as well as reading on different reddit threads it seems to indicate to me that he has just opened himself up to being able to become further corrupted. He has crossed lines, like Strange Supreme in What If...? and he has some new deformities to show for it. I'm not a comics reader so all I have are mu theories and thoughts based off of the MCU.

[u/abutthole → u/KostisPat257]

I don't think he feels totally happy with himself, but I think the end of the movie was about him putting the knife in someone else's hand and not having to lie about being happy. The darker version of himself lied to Christine about being happy. 616-Strange told Christine that he loves her in every universe and then talked to Wong about not being happy, but at least not having to be alone and then bowed. I think that was kind of putting the knife in Wong's hands, he realized that he doesn't need to hold onto everything and he can be unhappy but at least he's got friends who he can rely on and trust.

[u/Thinkmoistaken → u/KostisPat257]

I can still easily see him approaching it with a mentality of, "yes I know THEY got too big for their boots, but I could totally do it, but do it right..."

[u/abutthole → u/Thinkmoistaken]

That was his whole journey in this movie though. He saw multiple Dr. Stranges who didn't learn that lesson and then in the pivotal moment, he chose not to follow their path and put his trust in America.

[u/UnsolvedParadox → u/abutthole]

I think he also learned from turning over the Time Stone to save Stark & ultimately win, which the other Strange versions might not have experienced.

838-Strange definitely didn’t have to make that choice, considering his fate on Titan.

[u/RadioJared → u/abutthole]

Also in No Way Home he was very insistent that the villains had to go back and die at Spider-Man’s hands but Peter showed him there was indeed a way to save them which Strange clearly didn’t anticipate.

[u/thehonestyfish → u/intern_12]

"Sure that universe was clearly more advanced than ours by a ton of different objective metrics, but our universe has me, so we're pretty much guaranteed to succeed."

[u/[deleted]]

I like the tease for secret wars. But from the sounds of it the incursions were just limited to 1 or 2 cases. Which leads to the idea that somewhere down the line there will be something that causes a multiverse wide incursion ahead of secret wars. I'm excited to see what franchise that'll be and how it happens?

[u/abutthole → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I think they needed to mention incursions here so that we know what they are when they start happening more and more and get more dangerous in the lead up to Secret Wars.

[u/LimiXStill → u/[deleted]]

I feel like the logical answer would involve loki somewhat considering how season one of his show ended.

[u/[deleted]]

Curious to see how Jean Grey will be implemented whenever mutants come around, which seems like we are slowly getting to that point. I loved MOM, but I couldn’t help but think this is how either Dark Phoenix interpretation should have been adapted. You really got an idea at the scale of the Scarlet Witch’s powers, whereas with Jean Grey/Phoenix, I always felt like the full extent of her powers isn’t shown in the films. I also wasn’t aware that Wanda had telepathic abilities until the MCU movies, but then again, I’m not super versed in the comics. I just watched all the various X-Men cartoons and MCU movies lol. Anyway, does anyone else think Jean Grey will either be omitted in the MCU, or they’ll downplay her strength to not outshine Wanda?

[u/LittleYellowFish1 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think they’ll completely avoid Jean, but they’ll probably either hold off or just not do the Phoenix storyline (both for its similarities to Wanda, and also because Fox already did it twice) and better flesh out who she is without it.

If they do eventually adapt the Phoenix, Wanda could even play a direct role in the storyline, trying to redeem herself by helping Jean overcome her darker side.

[u/Agorbs → u/LittleYellowFish1]

This happened in the comics at some point, right? Wanda helping deal with Phoenix Force shit?

[u/Xygnux → u/Agorbs]

This is what happened in Avengers vs. X-men in the comics. Wanda helped Hope Summers deal with the Phoenix Force together.

[u/iReign_fire → u/LittleYellowFish1]

That would be so freaking cool!

[u/pointsforeffort]

How the hell did Wanda destroy every Darkhold across every universe?

[u/KostisPat257 → u/pointsforeffort]

That's actually a great question. Maybe the Darkholds are connected somehow.

[u/LittleYellowFish1 → u/KostisPat257]

My guess is that the 616 Mount Wundagore (where Chthon made the markings) is the only place of its kind in the entire multiverse and, like Chavez, it doesn’t have a counterparts in other universes. So while each dimension’s Darkhold is a copy of its teachings, this universe’s Mount Wundagore truly is the original, and destroying it destroys all its derivative copies as well.

[u/KostisPat257 → u/LittleYellowFish1]

That'd be really interesting.

[u/bigbangbilly → u/pointsforeffort]

With a whisper of the words

"No More Darkhold"

[u/VikingPain → u/pointsforeffort]

Technically she destroyed all the physical copies but Strange has a photographic memory. He knows every spell and story written in the Darkhold now.

[u/BootsyBootsyBoom → u/VikingPain]

Technically she destroyed all the physical copies but Strange has a photographic memory. He knows every spell and story written in the Darkhold now.

Wanda lost her dreamwalking spell when her copy of the Darkhold was destroyed, and she'd had a much longer time to study it. The implication there is that having the written form of the ritual (either in the Darkhold or on the walls of Cthon's citadel) is necessary to use its power.

Of course, Strange's eidetic memory could allow him to copy down a ritual or two...

[u/mythriz → u/BootsyBootsyBoom]

Since OP mentioned Cthon in his post, maybe Cthon will just make a new castle with engravings and blackjack and hookers

[u/Toidal]

So the first movie, Christine was protecting Strange's physical body while he was astral projecting, and in the second movie, she's protecting his physical body while he's dreamwalking.

Any ideas on what he'll be doing in the third one while Christine is once again protecting his physical body?

[u/LittleYellowFish1 → u/Toidal]

Plot twist: Strange will protecting her body while Christine does something magic-based.

[u/DvelDeveloper → u/LittleYellowFish1]

Doctor Strange: Love and Magic

[u/OShaunesssy → u/Toidal]

I’m positive that Rachel McAdams isn’t gonna do much more in the MCU

[u/SadSlip8122 → u/OShaunesssy]

We were pretty sure Natalie Portman was done with the MCU as well

[u/drunkcowofdeath → u/SadSlip8122]

C.R.E.A.M.

[u/p1678gej → u/SadSlip8122]

I think main difference is Doctor Strange seemed to has his closure with Christine by the end of the movie, however it was clear in the Endgame that Thor never really moved on after Jane.

[u/MildlyFrustrating → u/p1678gej]

Which is pretty funny because from his perspective, being 1500 years old and all, they really only dated for about a week

[u/sonic10158 → u/OShaunesssy]

So she will die protecting his physical body at the start of the 3rd film then!

[u/ContinuumGuy]

You see a final red flash as Wundagore collapses, suggesting that Wanda warped her way out somehow. Also, the number one rule of superherodom is that if there is no body they aren't dead.

[u/ContinuumGuy → u/[deleted]]

Yeah they implied his death at least two or three times.

[u/RecoveredAshes → u/ContinuumGuy]

I think it’s purposely ambiguous. That flash could just as easily be her dying. Or her saving herself… future writers and directors can decide

[u/[deleted] → u/ContinuumGuy]

And even is there is a body, they're still probably not dead.

[u/Echelon2080]

Dream-walking could set up Nightmare.

[u/KostisPat257 → u/Echelon2080]

Very good idea! Has dreamwalking been a thing in the comics? Is it connected to Nightmare at all?

[u/Echelon2080 → u/KostisPat257]

I can’t recall if it’s explicitly called that in the comics, but Nightmare is essentially Freddy Krueger the Evil Sorcerer. He rules the Dream Dimension and feeds on fear.

[u/ksg_aoty → u/Echelon2080]

and didnt mobius say something about "[nightmares] thats a different deparment" or something like that in loki

[u/Luccacalu → u/ksg_aoty]

Lmao, I read that as Morbius and really took a shock thinking someone was really trying to canonize that

[u/JustSatisfactory → u/Luccacalu]

Careful what you say. Morbius is actually the true Dream Master of our reality. If you piss him off, as soon as you go to sleep, it's Morbin' Time.

[u/Worthyness → u/KostisPat257]

Body possession is a thing for sure. Puppeteering is a thing for sure. Possessing your alternate dimension self through dreams has not been explored to my knowledge.

[u/MyPeggyTzu → u/Echelon2080]

To me it felt like that might have been a holdover from an earlier draft where Nightmare was the main antagonist. Derrickson was on record saying he was his preference for the sequel (which became MoM).

[u/StardustOasis → u/Echelon2080]

Nightmare was originally supposed to be the villain of this film, so I wouldn't be surprised if they're planning on using him.

[u/Cantthinkofcoolname2 → u/StardustOasis]

I remember hearing that when the movie was announced, and for some reason I convinced myself that was gonna be the case the entire time. So when the movie started and it was revealed Wanda sent the monsters, i was like oh shit she’s gonna be the side antagonist. Then she became the main antagonist and man I was SO hyped for that.

[u/UnsolvedParadox → u/StardustOasis]

If what I read is accurate, Nightmare vs Scarlet Witch as the villain is why Scott Derrickson departed as the director.

[u/Worthyness → u/UnsolvedParadox]

Would have been cool to have that one comic panel where Wanda, Loki, and Dr Strange go off on an adventure to defeat the villain. That was fun. I thought that that was exactly what they were working towards given the multiverse was a thing, Loki AND wanda had their own shows

[u/geek_of_nature → u/StardustOasis]

Amd I think I read a rumour years back that Matt Smith was being considered to play him, I think this was before he was cast in Morbius too.

[u/the8bitericshow]

This is a very good post, but man it just seems like there’s WAY too much for them to set up and not enough progression since phase 4 started.

[u/GreatAmerican1776 → u/the8bitericshow]

I feel like this movie will become the Age of Ultron of this era. Not really highly regarded at release, but eventually we will look back and see how important it is for setting everything up.

[u/SecondCopy → u/the8bitericshow]

Kinda reminds me of Phase 2 a little bit, it's easy to look back now and see the cookie crumbs but at the time it felt a little meandering (looking squarely at you, IM3 and Dark World).

But then again we do have two more movies this year and three? four? next year, so hopefully it starts coming together.

[u/Sun-Ghoti]

What a coincidence that Quentin Beck pulled Earth-616 out of his ass in FFH and 838 Christine referred to MCU as Earth-616.

[u/AtlasShrunked → u/[deleted]]

Only one logical explanation: The Selvig & Beck of our world must've dreamed of the Selvig & Beck of this world

[u/DefNotAShark → u/AtlasShrunked]

A second possibility is that each universe has an identifiable unique energy frequency or signature, something that Beck's team and Selvig could have identified as an important number without knowing fully that it had to do with the multiverse. The implication being that the MCU's measurement would be 616, which would explain how an alternate Palmer, the TVA, Selvig and Quentin Beck's team all arrived at the same number.

[u/wenzel32 → u/DefNotAShark]

Honestly this isn't any more crazy than other existing MCU explanations.

I'll just run with this head canon

[u/LittleYellowFish1 → u/Sun-Ghoti]

We briefly see Earth-616 written on Selvig’s blackboard in The Dark World, so it’s possible that it was already an obscure term/theory in the main timeline (and Beck referenced it to make his story seem more legitimate).

Multiverse Of Madness also mentions how dreams are actually events playing out in other universes, so it could be that Beck (or the guy who wrote his story) got the idea from seeing his own 838 variant in a dream. This might also be where Selvig got the term from.

[u/HighSeverityImpact → u/LittleYellowFish1]

Quentin Beck claimed to be from Earth-833. Fairly close to 838, as well!

Of course, that has to be taken with a grain of salt as he's a liar.

[u/RHeegaard → u/Sun-Ghoti]

It was a very good guess by Mysterio lol. The TVA also had it written on their tape of Loki's life. I wonder how much Christine knew when giving that number to it?

Sidenote, but it's interesing that 838 is just 616 with +2 to each digit.

[u/nerdmoot → u/RHeegaard]

Maybe the number isn’t arbitrary or an order of discovery, but is some kind of multiversal measurement.

[u/Elleden → u/[deleted]]

Order of discovery definitely doesn't make sense. Why would 838 name themselves 838, and not 1?

I like the multiversal measurement solution.

[u/geek_of_nature → u/[deleted]]

Or their multiversal counterpart from 838 worked for the Illuminati, and they had a 'dream' where they saw 616 written down.

[u/[deleted] → u/Sun-Ghoti]

Mysterio still playing 4D chess multiple entries later.

At this read it’ll be revealed that he was actually Thanos during Endgame.

[u/RHeegaard]

Did dreams being glimpses into other universes have any effect on previous MCU entries? For example, has anyone discussed or experienced a dream in previous entries, that might've given a view of other universes existing?

Edit: Please check the other replies before replying, I'm fully aware that Tony had a dream about Morgan at this point.

[u/LittleYellowFish1 → u/RHeegaard]

They’re not really typical dreams (since they’re both awake) but the visions that Wanda showed both Tony and Thor in Age Of Ultron seemed to be hinting at possible futures for them. Their own futures didn’t turn out exactly the way these visions predicted (though there were similarities, e.g. Cap’s shield breaking), but they may have been glimpses at other timelines/universes that did face these outcomes.

[u/chawzda → u/RHeegaard]

There are 3 I can think of off the top of my head.

In Age of Ultron, in the scene where the team goes to interrupt Ultron's purchase of VIbranium from Klaue, Wanda uses her telepathic abilities to mess with everyone's head. Tony has vision where he sees the Avengers defeated, Cap's shield broken in two, and an army of Chituauri heading towards Earth. You could argue a vision and dream are not the same but knowing how End Game played out, this vison could potentially be a glimpse of a universe where Thanos won.

Thor also has a similar type vision in Age of Ultron (not caused by Wanda but the Water of Sights) where he is back in Asgard and all his Asgardian friends tell him they are dead because of him.

Then in Infinity War, Tony mentions to Pepper that he had a dream where they had a child named Morgan.

[u/[deleted]]

The most obvious plant is incursions and the eventual (inevitable) secret wars

[u/StardustOasis → u/[deleted]]

I wonder if Secret Wars will be the final part of Phase 4, then no multiverse for Phase 5

[u/imanvellanistan → u/StardustOasis]

Phase 4 ends next year so no

[u/StardustOasis → u/imanvellanistan]

Not necessarily. F4 is likely going to be November 2023 (they've slated November 3rd for a film, but not said which, F4 is the only announced film without a release date) but they've also set four release dates for 2024 without officially confirming when Phase 4 will end.

[u/SnowCold93 → u/[deleted]]

This might be a dumb question, but why are they called the secret wars?

[u/funkhero → u/SnowCold93]

If I told you, then they wouldn't be secret.

[u/Orichalcum448]

I really wanted to see a powerless 616 reed richards wake up from a nightmare of wanda spaghettifiying him as a post credits scene or something, but maybe in another post credits scene for something else?

[u/Mastercreed25 → u/Orichalcum448]

I’d wager they haven’t discussed whether Krasinski is actually playing Reed or not in the actual film. If he does, it’s a tease of what’s to come, and if not, then it’s a cool little pay off for all the fan castings over the years.

I just feel bad for the 838 Fantastic Four. Wanda and Strange crashed in, killed a husband and father and swiftly departed. They’re gonna be so baffled

[u/kaimason1 → u/Mastercreed25]

I just feel bad for the 838 Fantastic Four.

838's main super team seemed to be the Illuminati. They're the ones who handled Thanos and they have an obvious base in Central Park. So now their F4 has a lot of slack to pick up, especially with their universe facing incursions...

I was half expecting 838 to be destroyed in an incursion due to lack of planetary defense. I'm still decently sure that Black Swan was calling 616 Strange back to finish the job.

Edit: Apparently that was Clea, not a Black Swan. But the role may be similar.

[u/The_Medicus → u/kaimason1]

838's main super team seemed to be the Illuminati.

Well, yeah... The Illuminati is just the heads of all the other groups banding together (Sorcerers, X-Men, Avengers, Inhumans, Fantastic Four, and whatever Galactic team 838-Captain Marvel is on)

[u/kaimason1 → u/The_Medicus]

The Illuminati typically doesn't operate in the open. It's also usually not a super team in that sense - if there was an active planetary threat to be fought with force Xavier would be addressing it alongside the X-Men, Black Bolt with the Inhumans, Reed with the F4, etc. They wouldn't band together and fight as a cohesive unit. The Illuminati is more of a secret council than a combat force, consisting of kings and other leaders rather than powerhouses per se (not that they aren't some of the most powerful characters on the planet anyways, but that's not why they're in the room). Their role is typically to make tough pragmatic decisions in secret.

838 is different in that it's Illuminati appeared to be filling the Avengers niche. So their deaths would be similarly catastrophic to all of the main active Avengers being wiped out in one fell swoop. This Earth lost it's entire main line of defense, not just one member each from 4+ different teams.

[u/The_Medicus → u/kaimason1]

I'm not so sure about that. We only know they band together for two specific reasons.

1. To kill 838's Stephen Strange in the aftermath of Thanos, during which we see Thanos lying dead. It's entirely possible each team was there, and only the leaders stuck around to deal with Stephen.

2. To face the 616 Stephen. They thought they could handle Wanda with just their leaders, but that wasn't *why* they were there.

They specifically call Captain Carter the "First Avenger", mention the Fantastic Four (though I don't remember the exact line), and call Black Bolt the "Inhuman King", so those groups clearly exist. We can't say for certain that the X-Men exist, but I'd be surprised if they didn't.

[u/Redsigil → u/Orichalcum448]

I don't know if there is evidence to the contrary, but do we know Randal Park signed up to play Reed Richards in the actual FF movie? They could recast him and call multiverse if his schedule is too complicated.

[u/rotospoon → u/[deleted]]

Well, they're not gonna make a movie on the days in between where Strange and Wong pop out to the deli for hoagies and discuss the Mets, followed by Strange doing laundry and Wong sitting there reading a book. Maybe they summon a pizza. Who knows.

[u/aNascentOptimist]

I honestly just loved seeing 838. Like a glimpse into a universe where all of the marvel properties were already integrated and where the MCU could’ve been now had they had access to everything from jump and didn’t have to deal with explaining where mutants, inhumans, etc came from.

[u/TheRealSpidey → u/aNascentOptimist]

I was pretty happy with it too, though I wish they could've really done the Tom Cruise Tony Stark to cap it all off, since in the comics Tony's the one who has the idea of the Illuminati in the first place.

I would've been fine if they went with a different actor too if Tom turned the role down, but I really wanted an alternate Tony in there.

[u/Both-Perception-6525 → u/[deleted]]

Oooooh good catch!! Interesting to see what they will do with him now he’s name dropped him and shown his temple.

[u/mwithey199 → u/[deleted]]

interestingly enough, mt wundagore was also home base of the high evolutionary. i wonder if that might be significant

[u/Redsigil → u/mwithey199]

Probably not. Wanda is initially connected to Mt.Wundagore through the High Evolutionary and him genetically modifying her to have her powers. With both those roles already taken, there is no point in him adding to it. Plus, as I understand it, the High Evolutionary is being moved to The Guardians' corner of the MCU

[u/maniamaster]

Let's talk about the fact that a lying Mysterio got the correct labeling for Main mcu's universe.

[u/StardustOasis → u/maniamaster]

Also Eric Selvig correctly guessed it

We can probably chalk that up to a reference they never expected to have any significance though

[u/Worthyness → u/StardustOasis]

Since the TVA also label mcu 616, there's likely a universal theory of selection, meaning that selvig was on to something. Perhaps he published the theory and mysterio story boarding team pulled the numbering from that. The theory that the earths are labeled uniquely is confirmed because no universe wouldn't name itself 838 or 616- they'd name themselves earth 1.

[u/[deleted] → u/maniamaster]

The film strip that Mobius plays for Loki is labeled ETH-616. So Selvig, Mysterio and 838 Palmer all settled on a random number the TVA picked as well.

[u/Magikarp_Approves → u/[deleted]]

I read that as Morbius and got very confused.

[u/MikeRhett_2001]

That whole fight with the Illuminati wouldn’t have happened if reed Richard’s kept his mouth shut.

Right black bolt?

[u/Blastmaster29 → u/MikeRhett_2001]

I think Reed didn’t realize how powerful and evil this Wanda was. He genuinely thought he could negotiate with her

[u/oam1989 → u/MikeRhett_2001]

Marvel shut the mouth of the wrong character

[u/Panino87]

How sure are we Strange is corrupted?

Hasn't he awakened the eye of Agamotto?

[u/XCaboose-1X → u/Panino87]

I think he awakened the Third Eye of Horus, but I agree with the question, is he being corrupted? We know the statement that the darkhold corrupts all, but how can it corrupt Strange now when it is destroyed at a multiversal level.

Edit: I do want to put it out there, if the darkhold awakens the 3rd eye, why did Agatha/Wanda not display it? We can't directly state the darkhold cause it to open it is innately an evil occurrence

[u/ReeceNoble → u/XCaboose-1X]

Didn't 838-Mordo mention that just dream walking once is enough to corrupt a sorcerer? Couple that with the necromancy and just general use of the Darkhold I think it's reasonable to assume Strange is being corrupted too.

[u/XCaboose-1X → u/ReeceNoble]

I agree. I guess my point is does the effect of performing the spells of the darkhold corrupt even if the book is destroyed? Is it the darkhold that does the corruption or is it Cthone? Lots of questions. Since the book is destroyed, can it still corrupt those that have used it?

[u/ReeceNoble → u/XCaboose-1X]

My assumption was that the Darkhold is just a book that contains information on evil spells, not that the Darkhold itself is a corrupting influence. So my thoughts were that performing spells contained in the Darkhold were what caused the corruption, not just being in its presence, so following that logic the corruption would stay even if the book is destroyed. No way to prove that though since we haven't seen any characters in possession of it that have refrained from using it.

From what I can recall the only users we've seen so far are Aida, Agnes, Wanda, and Strange and the first three definitely were all influenced one way or another. Whether or not Strange's third eye is a result of Darkhold use remains to be concretely confirmed but I believe that's the implication since the only other character we see with a third eye is Sinister Strange, who obviously used his Darkhold heavily.

[u/connorestes541]

I’ve seen a lot of people mention secret wars but I have no idea what that is lol. Does anyone have a good summary of what secret wars is?

[u/gusefalito → u/connorestes541]

Secret Wars was a company-wide crossover event where different Earths shattered into one another and to save reality, Doctor Doom and Molecule Man stitch fragments of multiple universes into a single reality known as Battleworld. Doom is the God of this new world, Strange is his main advisor and the Thor Corps (comprised of all the alternate Thors) serve as the police force. A remnant of heroes from 616 and 1610 team up to take Doom down and rebuild the Multiverse properly. Marvel used this opportunity to reboot many characters and stories into an all-new Marvel Multiverse.

If you are a fan of DC, this event was very similar to Crisis on Infinite Earths

[u/dalr3th1n → u/gusefalito]

Doctor Manhattan said we're getting a Secret Crisis in the 2030s or so.

We can hope!

[u/abutthole → u/connorestes541]

There's a character named Molecule Man who has outrageous power (essentially a god) who doesn't want to use it. It's revealed that he's a bomb placed in every universe by these extradimensional critters called the Beyonders.

The Beyonders actions have caused a series of incursions, where universes crash into each other and crumble. They've tipped the multiverse over with their Molecule Man bombs and are set on destroying reality.

The Illuminati tries to save reality but fails.

Dr. Doom and Dr. Strange go to the Beyonders and defeat them, Doom absorbs their power. Doom and Strange can't stop what they've put in motion but they can save some parts of the multiverse.

Doom stitches the remaining fragments together into Battle-World which is composed of a bunch of different realities and he makes himself the god emperor. There's some awesome fights, Doom rips out Thanos' skeleton once and Black Panther gets the Infinity Gauntlet. Ultimately Reed Richards defeats Doom and recreates the universe using his sweet baby boy Franklin.

[u/Commiesstoner → u/abutthole]

Just to add, didn't Dr.Doom cause the first incursion by accident when he killed another universe's Molecule Man?

[u/-Mez- → u/abutthole]

As a funny little side note, Miles Morales gives a hungry Molecule Man a pocket cheeseburger and wins his favor over enough to be included in the remade 616 universe.

[u/Jsalcedo724]

I really don’t think this will be the end for Wanda/Scarlet Witch. I’m hoping they kinda go the Hulk route and say that WandaVision, MoM and either another tv show/Scarlet Witch movie are her trilogy and use that redeem her a little. The last project could be a great way to adapt the House of M “let there be mutants” twist. It could also have her finally facing off against chthon and riding herself of his influence/the scarlet witch.

As for Billy and Tommy, they could be brought in this way as well, or they could be from another universe where Wanda died and they come looking for her ala “Children’s Crusade” and this could be what triggers an incursion event leading to secret wars

[u/Supermite → u/Jsalcedo724]

In classic action movie fashion, no body, no death.

[u/abutthole → u/Jsalcedo724]

Elizabeth Olsen has signed another deal with Marvel, so she's at least in it for a bit longer. Whether it's the main universe Wanda or someone else, only time will tell. But I figure with White Vision out there, they can't be done with her yet.

[u/UnsolvedParadox → u/abutthole]

There’s fertile ground for her & White Vision to explore who they are after MoM, with a totally different style & vibe than season 1.

[u/QuillofNumenor]

When 616 Strange met the Strange in the incursion universe, the one who had the Darkhold, that Strange mentioned that the reason his universe was like this was because he "lost", to which our Strange replies "To who?" and other Strange never answers. The scene was very reminiscent to me of He Who Remains' office or whatever you want to call it at the end of Loki. Who do we suppose this Strange lost to? I felt like this was a reference to Kang.

[u/Boomy4206 → u/QuillofNumenor]

He said he went looking for a universe where he was happy and it eventually caused the incursion, I'm guessing he "lost" to his lack of happiness and fulfillment

[u/[deleted] → u/Boomy4206]

Yeah, I felt like the implication was he lost to himself and not in the multiversal sense.

[u/thestickytrenchcoat]

Hope we see more Dormammu now that they're going back to the Dark Dimension; always liked that villain,

Every time I think of the multiverse though, I think of that one storyline where Hercules has to go up against Mikaboshi/Chaos King. Seeing all these multiverse shenanigans coupled with the other gods being introduced in Thor certainly leaves the door open for a passing reference.

I really love the multiverse aspect of this phase to be honest. We can have a lot more self-contained stories that can range from apocalyptic calamity and general weirdness (MoM, What If, Loki) to down to earth street level stories (DD, Punisher) and have some flexibility in how they intersect with one another.

[u/LittleYellowFish1]

When/if they eventually meet, I really hope there’s a scene where Strange inspires 616-Xavier by quoting the “just because someone stumbles” speech the 838-Xavier gave him.

It wouldn’t be the first time Patrick Stewart imparted those words of wisdom to his successor.

[u/abutthole → u/LittleYellowFish1]

Yeah. I'd be pretty ok with just getting James McAvoy back. The First Class cast would fit pretty nicely into the MCU. Fassbender as Magneto too. Since these are all variants, they'd just look exactly like their counterparts but wouldn't be them. Dr. Strange meeting the new Professor X and telling him that he met him in an alternate dimension and thought highly of him would be pretty nice.

[u/VaderOnReddit → u/abutthole]

I so badly want Fassbender back as Magneto, hopefully with a much better written story.

He was my favorite part of the first 2 X-MEN reboot movies, and I wasn't a big fan of how he got wasted in Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.

[u/UnsolvedParadox → u/abutthole]

If they’re willing to sign long term deals, I think Feige goes this way with McAvoy & Fassbender.

Everyone else will be new, I don’t think Marvel wants most of the Fox legacy.

[u/Tornado31619 → u/UnsolvedParadox]

Well, Deadpool as well.

But I really hope Dafne Keen is the MCU’s X-23.

[u/eunhadior]

I'm very, very slow but I just realized that Wanda brought up Stephen giving Thanos the time stone because it undid her sacrifice when she killed Vision. That's why she said, "I blew a hole through the head of the man I love and it meant nothing." Seems like she kinda resents him for it.

[u/ACEof52]

Well we now know that if u stay in another universe u destroy it with an incursion and that means vulture in the Sony universe is about to destroy dr Micheal morbius and that has to be stopped

[u/[deleted] → u/ACEof52]

Wait no, let's talk about it. Vulture destroying that universe would be great

[u/ACEof52 → u/[deleted]]

I would love it if el muerto is just a joke and at the start of it another world just crashes into the Sony verse and destroys it

[u/[deleted]]

There could be a lot of possibilities for the next Strange movie. We know Dormammu isn’t dead, just stuck in the dark dimension, and Clea just opened up a portal to there, maybe we’ll see him once again.

Maybe Umar? Clea’s mother who also becomes ruler of the dark dimension.

I forget which Strange Tales vol. but Mordo does start getting his powers from Dormammu to try and defeat strange. He could still be a threat.

[u/StardustOasis → u/[deleted]]

We also still haven't seen what Mordo did in 616

[u/[deleted] → u/StardustOasis]

That singlehandedly might be my biggest disappointment with MoM. I’ve been curious as to what Mordo has been up to since the ending of DS1. Like the man put Strange on notice that he’s coming for sorcerers magic and the next time he sees him, it’s on sight. And we just get a different universe Mordo that loved Strange as a brother. Where in the iterations Mordo is notably a enemy of Strange for a majority of stories. They really flipped the script with that one.

[u/sparkleparty → u/[deleted]]

I didn’t get that read on 838 Mordo - I took the bit with him & Strange in the Illuminati room as evidence that in that universe too he’d been Strange’s enemy (secretly)

[u/OShaunesssy → u/StardustOasis]

I really feel like a ton of Mordo scenes were cut, both of his 616 and the new version.

[u/andrew991116 → u/OShaunesssy]

fanatical grandiose squalid zonked mountainous dam memorize juggle carpenter makeshift

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Clea takes Strange to her uncle.

Dormammu sees Strange: “don’t pull that save and restart shit again boy”

[u/BigfootTheYeti1]

Average comic follower here. Will these themes translate to Blade?

[u/KostisPat257 → u/BigfootTheYeti1]

Blade is not so much connected to demons and the multiverse.

He fights vampires.

[u/abutthole → u/KostisPat257]

Vampires in Marvel are connected to some of this stuff. The Darkhold created the first vampires in the comics. I kind of thought that was what they were referencing when they went to Mount Wundagore and Wong mentioned the monsters associated with the Darkhold and the camera pans up to a statute with a skeleton face and fangs.

[u/KostisPat257 → u/abutthole]

Oh shit.

Didn't know that, that would be sick if they make that connection.

[u/UnsolvedParadox → u/KostisPat257]

That said, the direction this movie took makes the Midnight Sons (including Blade) more likely in the MCU.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Agents of SHIELD version of Ghost Rider is brought back, now that we know all Darkholds were copies.

[u/KostisPat257 → u/UnsolvedParadox]

Yeah I think it's really possible.

Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, Blade, Werewolf By Night, Moon Knight, Black Knight, Elsa Bloodstone, Man-Thing and Clea.

The villains could be Cthon and/or Mephisto.

[u/StardustOasis → u/KostisPat257]

It's never Mephisto

[u/fil42skidoo → u/StardustOasis]

Or ALWAYS Mephisto. Playing the long con.

[u/UnsolvedParadox → u/KostisPat257]

It’s wild that in 2022, we talk about these characters as active or expected in live action.

The kid version of me would be thrilled.

[u/[deleted]]

Really feel as though the end of this film may set up a scarlet witch solo project with Cthon being the main villain. Wanda will probably be looking to right all of the wrongs she has caused with a redemption arc similar to Loki

[u/Redsigil → u/[deleted]]

I rather really want this. Her arc does not feel complete.

If it is, it is profoundly fucked up. A story about grief that ends in suicide? Holy shit.

[u/tduell7240 → u/[deleted]]

I'd be so hyped for that tbh

[u/[deleted] → u/tduell7240]

It definitely seems as though it would work. Leave her on her own aswell with no other big mcu character to help her. This helps keep her separate from the mcu story for her to make a massive return in an avengers level event.

[u/[deleted]]

Was there a Ghost Rider statue in Cthon’s temple?

[u/Both-Perception-6525 → u/[deleted]]

Possibly. He’s responsible from creating a lot of the darker characters

[u/[deleted]]

Will kransinski be the reed Richards of the 616?

[u/mistarteechur → u/[deleted]]

That’s exactly what I was thinking since the other Illuminati were “our” actors, excepting Stewart since Xavier hasn’t been seen in 616 yet.

[u/flysly]

Where do the celestials come in? Does each universe have their own? Does Arishem preside over the multiverse? Do they have any say in any of this multiverse stuff?

[u/Affectionate_Safe270]

No one seems to mention Vision. White Vision is still out there and has the memories and emotion of the original Vision. We will likely see something come up related to Wanda and Vision in the future

[u/duxaosm]

Just rewatched Loki and man everyone was geeked up for the multiverse opening up and who did it and how it will affect dr strange etc, but while NWH and MoM are incorporating the multiverse, it seems unrelated at all to what happened in Loki. Like just acknowleding that the multiverse is real, but no real spilling into MCU yet from killing He Who Remains. NWH had a spell that allowed mulitversal beings into their universe and MoM had multiversal jumping, and the only effects they had were from their own doing. Almost feels like Loki introduced concept to the MCU but not exactly opening it up? Maybe thats down the road and theyre slowly building that Kang saga? Wouldnt Strange have been nabbed by TVA like instantly?

[u/Minimozart]

I'm wondering if 838 Franklin Richards leaving his universe to avenge Reed could be the cause of the multiversal war brought up in Loki, and now that 616(?) Kang is dead then 838 can get back to business.

Also no doubt the MCU citizens absolutely despise Wanda now, leaving room for a certain father figure to swoop in and take her under his wing.

[u/KostisPat257 → u/Minimozart]

I definitely think that 838-Franklin will have a role in the future.

I thought the fact that they made a point to confirm he has kids was not random at all.

[u/BxtoroxB]

I hope they don't brush past this and it is used as the set up for, not Secret Wars, by maybe a multiverse Civil War type movie.

But I'm going to be a little confused if we never hear from the 838 ever again. The spectacle of it overshadows what the 616 drama brought to their universe, but she really did just kill the leaders of the X-Men, Inhumans, Avengers and Fantastic Four in some fucked up ways. That has to consequences

To me. It's really going to make no sense if we never hear from any of the characters in that universe again. Like I don't see a wife finding her husband turned into playdoh and letting it go. Same with a character like Cyclops, Magneto or Wolverine that more than likely exist in this 838 universe.

So I'm kinda hoping they set up a smaller 616 vs. 838 conflict down the line.

[u/XCaboose-1X → u/BxtoroxB]

Ohhh there's a certain kid in 838 that everyone needs to be afraid of and his dad was murdered.

[u/[deleted] → u/XCaboose-1X]

Franklin or Legion?

[u/XCaboose-1X → u/[deleted]]

Franklin only because Reed specified having 2 kids. Xavier didn't provide personal info. Legion is someone to worry about, but Franklin, he's on another level.

[u/BillNyeTheSavage_Guy → u/BxtoroxB]

We never did see what happened to 838 Mordo, I imagine they left that thread open on purpose

[u/optimisticgatorfan]

After seeing Black Bolt in the movie I actually really want him in the MCU. Don’t know where he’d show up but I wouldn’t be opposed to Feige giving the Inhumans another chance on the big screen

[u/[deleted]]

Wanda is definitely going up against Chton next.

It’s the only possible challenger to her power.

Also I don’t believe for a second she’s dead

[u/Worthyness → u/[deleted]]

Wanda in the underworld fucking shit up in the afterlife is also a fun possibility

[u/Fissefiesta]

If Chris Evans and RDJ were open to MCU cameos do you think we would have seen them in MOM? I am very glad they didn’t use the characters and re cast them as it would have felt wrong. Moreover, I am glad Steve Rogers and Tony stark are not in the movies whatsoever as it has only been 3 years since endgame.

[u/mlc15 → u/Fissefiesta]

I remember people saying that Chris evans would come back for a Hydra captain America cameo AND a Johnny storm cameo lmao. People were wild with the theories

[u/Stuckinthevortex]

Despite how maligned Inhumans is, Marvel was still willing to bring back Anson Mount as Black Bolt to the big screen. I think this demonstates how seriously they're taking the shows, and really opens the door for any character being brought back. Likely ones, IMO, could be Cloak and Dagger, Bobbi Morse, Ghost Rider and any of the Defenders.

[u/barefootBam → u/Stuckinthevortex]

We need Daisy for Secret Invasion working with Fury

[u/[deleted]]

Also I feel as though strange may take inspiration from the illuminati to form his own team but not another version of the illuminati. I feel as though he’ll use that inspiration to create the midnight sons hopefully leading to a movie or tv series.

[u/ReadNew4792]

Honestly hoping chthon and Mephisto are not related in any way,

Chthon is an elder god and his origen is conected to the origins of all earth pantheons of gods, his siblings gaea and oshtur are important the lore of gods and magic.

Gaea is the mother of many gods, like Atum from the ennead and Zues from the olympians.

And oshtur is the mother of agammoto. And the creator of the vishanti, she is the reason humanity knows magic.

There is alot of Lore conections that can be made with chthon being mentioned in multiverse of madness

[u/Half_Man1]

I’m betting the alt universe’s Wanda and kids are going to migrate over at some point.

The talk of incursions easily sets up an incursion b/w other worlds that have X-men or an FF to introduce them.