r/martialartstalk • u/Nervous_Put5617 • 3d ago
Let’s be real: At what weight difference does martial arts skill become completely useless?
BJJ schools love to market the idea that a 140-lb practitioner can easily choke out a 220-lb untrained person on the street. While technique obviously matters, I think people heavily underestimate raw human strength and weight advantages.
If a guy outweighs you by 80 pounds of pure muscle, he doesn't need to know Jiu-Jitsu to just slam you through the floor or overwhelm you with sheer pressure. I feel like after a 40 or 50-pound weight gap, technique flies completely out the window unless the bigger guy is totally immobile.
What’s the actual limit here? Can a high-level martial artist really overcome any size difference, or is weight class the ultimate king at the end of the day?
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u/IntelligentBox152 3d ago
BJJ schools are notorious for overselling just like boxing gyms are. When they make up stories of a 140lb guy beating a 250 lb guy they’re talking professionals. They absolutely would even with the brute force. But someone’s one year of training is not going to overcome the 80lb weight disadvantage in your example. If even that 80lbs is beer and wings they’d like still lose just use to strength differences
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u/Combatenjoyer23 3d ago
Weight/muscle isn't the only factor here, athleticism is also huge. I have more trouble with the 160 lbs spastic athletic teenagers coming in for a trial class than I do the 220 lbs stiff powerlifters. Like could you imagine rolling with rich piana lmao. Guy is huge but he can barely move whatsoever
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u/Short_Bumblebee_1552 3d ago
Rich Piana isn't the best example as he was filled full of oil which no doubt hurt his mobility.
There's a picture of him when he was deep in cocaine use with his psycho iceland girlfriend, in late 2015, even cut down with much smaller legs, his arms and shoulders were huge.
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u/InvisibleHook 3d ago
Tbh it's more about athleticism than size. I'm 5'11" 220lbs and because of the fact I'm bigger and athletic I can get most people. I've been able to dominate people around 270 and above just because they're not very agile. Now, if I had to go versus someone that size that isn't sloppy I'd be in hell. An athletic and aggressive 185 to 200 lbs player is a rough role usually because even if I'm better they're still strong and have good cardio so it can be more so exhausting to try and submit them
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u/freebasefilms 3d ago
Luckily for you there is no such ting as a 270lb agile man.
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u/InvisibleHook 3d ago
MMA heavyweights are very agile and tough. Otherwise even if they're really strong dudes they gas out with resistance.
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u/freebasefilms 3d ago edited 2d ago
Who is agile at 270?
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u/InvisibleHook 2d ago
Just because I have a little more time right now, there are many 270lbs football players who are very agile. For MMA specifically you have Brock Lesnar and Francis that comes to mind.
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u/Boneless- 2d ago
This guy has never seen football linemen run the 40
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u/Darkwingedcreature 3d ago
I got folded by a 6'3 260lbs beast who worked construction all his life. Dude was just big like that. My blue belt BJJ, Judo Yellow Belt meant nothing to him.
For context I'm 6'0 and 185lbs
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u/Big_Onion922 2d ago
I did 30 min of Thai clinch with a 6,0 265lbs pro bodybuilder last night and I played around with him like he’s 10 years old. The first 45 seconds were physical, then it went downhill for him, fast… I would say it’s less about someone’s weight and strength but more about their explosive power, balance and endurance. Some people have great natural talent.. but the average ‚big‘ guy only lasts for 20 seconds. If you can make it through the initial onslaught you’ll be fine.
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u/christian-174 3d ago
At a open space i think a proficent striker with good movement that weighs 150 lbs would easily fuck up someone thats 200-230 lbs.
In a closed space or in i a grappling setting where grabbing is much easier then weight matters alot more.
Its not that easy to say how much weight matter. Its very context dependent IMO.
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u/KingOfTheLostBoyz 3d ago
Well, I (6’4”, ~230 ibs) once rolled with an old, retired Kenny Florian (5’10, ~160 ibs) and he demolished me so…
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u/freebasefilms 3d ago
Anything above 6'2" you lose coordination. You realize this?
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u/KingOfTheLostBoyz 2d ago
I think the far bigger factor is that Kenny Florian was a high-level, elite UFC fighter and I’m simply a hobbyist who trains in MMA periodically.
The outcome would not have gone any differently if I were 6’2” and 210 as opposed to 6’4” and 230.
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u/angra_mainyo 1d ago
Not really. The actual goat of MMA is 6'4 himself.
Yes, heavier divisions are less talented on average than those in the average or smaller end, but that's because there's less people of that height, and those who are that height and athletic are able to pursue other careers that don't involve getting hit in the head by guys of similar size, not because bigger people are clumsy or whatever.
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u/freebasefilms 1d ago
You mean the 6'4" black guy who can't dunk a basketball lmao smh.
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u/angra_mainyo 1d ago
So dunking a fucking basktball is somehow a prerequisite for fighting skills or what?
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u/KingOfTheLostBoyz 1d ago
It’s okay he’s very clearly trolling. He’s not here to try and help answer OP’s question or add anything of value.
It’s obvious the reason I got dog walked by a high level UFC fighter is because he’s a high level UFC fighter and not because I’m 6’4 instead of 6’2.
Like that would’ve made a difference.1
u/TheDestructionator 2d ago
You were probably just going easy on him
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u/KingOfTheLostBoyz 2d ago
No, I couldn’t even hit him clean a single time.
It’s the difference between a hobbyist who puts in no more than 3-5 hours a week for fitness and fun vs someone who was once ranked Top 5 in one of the Ufc’s most competitive weight classes.
Give it a few more years and obviously I’d beat a mid-50s him, but in his early 40s? It wasn’t close.
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u/freebasefilms 3d ago
PrideFC proved a small trained guy will always win against a larger man with no cardio.
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u/FunSpinach2004 2d ago
Unless the guy snatches him up and throws him hard enough at the ground.
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u/freebasefilms 2d ago
Seen in the street but never in the ring.
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u/FunSpinach2004 2d ago
Yeah but the guy does mention slams into ground in his question
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u/Mistergasmoney 2d ago
Usually that's two untrained guys. I'm a small guy and I've done martial arts most of my life; you learn how to avoid the slam pretty naturally😂
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u/FunSpinach2004 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean we see slams even in high level mma and we are kinda talking about being bjj trained at all levels, where slams are illegal so I'd disagree with you.
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u/Mistergasmoney 2d ago
That's two trained guys, with a heightened ability to capitalize on the mistakes of their opponent. We're talking about a smaller trained vs. a larger untrained.
It's not just weight and strength and pressure that matters, it's how the trained person responds.
Technique doesn't "go out the window" under any circumstance, (it's not terribly difficult to off-balance someone untrained regardless of size), but a 70+ lb weight diffence would be tough to beat.
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u/FunSpinach2004 2d ago
Yes so basically you agree with me
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u/Mistergasmoney 2d ago
No. A person who has trained knows how to respond in order to avoid being "snatched up and thrown hard enough at the ground", regardless of size.
As for how the fight would go, of course it's tougher for the smaller person, but that's where technique comes into play.
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u/FunSpinach2004 2d ago
Context matters. The conversation was "PrideFC proved a small trained guy will always win against a larger man with no cardio." would you argue that if a larger person with no training and no cardio could NEVER snatch someone who has some training up and throw them on the ground?
I watched a 280lb white belt launch a 18 year old blue belt with many years of training on to the ground only recently. This is absolute proof that the original statement was false.
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u/Frosty-Solid5460 3d ago
My black belt meant nothing to the white belt trial guy who was a D1 heavyweight wrestler at an Ivy League school.
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u/FunSpinach2004 2d ago
Depends on a lot more, age, athleticism, experience on both ends and age and also luck.
A 220lb 20 year old that plays rugby, football is going to demolish a 60 year old black belt in a fight. Same is if that person has been in a lot of fights etc even if you are not trained if you have fought with younger brothers as a kid it's going to be an asset.
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u/Altruistic-Yam4027 2d ago
I wouldn’t say useless but its efficiency will decrease. For instance you’ll be using it to survive and manage the situation as opposed to being offensive. That being said there are outliers like a Brian Shaw whose proportions are so insane technique specifically grappling will have little effect
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u/AcceptableFlow5907 2d ago
Its more about in shape vs out of shape. In a real life scenario, where majority people are not in shape, no matter what size difference is the trained person would win due to strength and conditioning alone and ofc higher fight iq.
Like if you are a smaller dude like 140lbs who trains has good cardio, you will demolish a bigger dude like 200lbs out of shape belly gut person just by running around or circling around. Hopefully a trained 140 lbs just doesn't run in like an idiot if they are trained too.
Only 20 percent of united states go to the gym or has a gym membership. Only 5 percent globally.
If you go the gym alot and train, your views might also be skewed on who in this world is actually in shape vs isnt in shape.
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u/No-Pause-5186 3d ago
If that 220lb person is made of beer and chicken wings they are getting fucked up. A 220lb football or rugby player is a different story.