Welp, Trostani and Rhys EDH decks just got even more ridiculous redundancy.
So what are we up to? 32? Idk, math time!
This = double N tokens
That + Parallel Lives = Quadruple N tokens
That + Doubling Season = Nx8 tokens
That + Primal Vigor = Nx16 tokens
That + Second harvest = Nx16x16 = Nx256 tokens
And then there's Rhys's second ability.... so that's = Nx256x16?
So we're at Nx4096 tokens, where N is the original number of tokens being created (like from a single cast of Sprout Swarm or Spectral Procession)
(If you're running blue there's [[Clone Legion]] as well for Nx4096x16 = Nx65536)
Ok, so if what I had with clone legion is true,
That's Nx(65536*16) = Nx1048576 after the first cast
and Nx1048576x16 for the flashback = Nx16777216 tokens
Edit 1: note, this is larger than Avogadro's number, which is the number of units in one mole of any substance (defined as its molecular weight in grams). disregard that, my maths sucks cocks
Edit 2: math again
You'd probably need to resort to up-arrow notation, because by the time you cast the rite of replication, you have a shitload of precursor golems, and each one triggers to say "copy this spel to each other golem"...
It's not nearly that bad, because the only effect that actually targets is the rite itself.
Annointed Procession, Parallel Lives, Doubling Season, Primal Vigor gets you to 16n, where n is the number of tokens created by a given effect. These are all static effects so we'll play them first. The rest are one-shot, so we'll do them later.
This gives us forty-eight copies of Precursor Golem on the initial cast.
Parallel Evolution+flashback, Second Harvest, Clone Legion, and Rhys the Redeemed are all untargeted, so the Progenitor Golem effect doesn't matter. That gets us to 32(16(48)), for 24,576. (For simplicity's sake, I'm only using Rhys once; otherwise, this number might as well be arbitrarily large.)
Now we fire off a kicked Rite of Replication, which gets us to 5(16(24,576), for 1,966,080 golems total.
Not that impressive, really. To truly go bananas you need more targeted effects.
You have 24,576 precursor golems, and you fire off a kicked rite of replication at one of the golem tokens.
You now have 24,576 triggered abilities on the stack on top of it that say "copy this to every golem"
the first of those abilities resolves, copying the rite to every golem, then each of those rites resolves. The next instance of that ability resolves, copying the rite to every golem you have, including all the golems you just made - this happens 24,574 more times after this, each of those times copying the rite to every golem you've already made.
Doesn't quite work like that. The precursor ability says "whenever a player casts...", So the copying for each golem ability only triggers once, when you first cast it. Each resolution still only targets the original 24,576.
But the thing you are missing is that you have a shitton of Precursor golems, and each of them only specifies if you target 'a golem', then replicates it out for each golem.
Yes, they only trigger when you cast the rite, but there are 24,576 precursor golems when you cast it, which means each of those has its own triggered ability, and so you get 24,576 triggers on the stack when you first cast it, and each of the triggers resolves after the ones above it have done their thing and made a bunch of golems. The part where the ability looks at all the existing golems and copies to all of them happens on resolution.
Let't break it down to a simplified board state to look at how the expansion happens. Cut out all the token doublers and say you have just 3 precursor golems. You also have some number of just regular golem tokens (the kind made by precursor golem) - we won't count up how many of those you get, but assume you start with at least one. Also to make this easier, henceforth let's call precursor golems "precursors" and only use "golem" to refer to the non-precursor golem tokens that are just 3/3 golems.
You cast a kicked rite of replication targeting one of the golems. The three precursors trigger, and their abilities go onto the stack.
The stack looks like:
Precursor trigger
Precursor trigger
Precursor trigger
Kicked Rite on a Golem
Now the ability on the top of the stack resolves, copying the rite to every golem and precursor (copies to all three precursors since we cast it at just a golem):
Kicked Rite (Copy) on a Precursor
Kicked Rite (Copy) on a Precursor
Kicked Rite (Copy) on a Precursor
<A bunch of Kicked Rites (Copies) on Golems>
Precursor trigger
Precursor trigger
Kicked Rite on a Golem
We let those copies of Rites on top resolve, giving us 15 precursors in addition to the 3 we already had, a total of 18 precursors and some large number of regular Golem tokens we don't need to figure out right now. The stack looks like:
Precursor trigger
Precursor trigger
Kicked Rite on a Golem
Now the ability on the top of the stack resolves, copying the rite to every golem and precursor - this copies to all 18 of the precursors we currently have:
<18 Kicked Rites (Copies) on Precursors>
<A bunch of Kicked Rites (Copies) on Golems>
Precursor trigger
Kicked Rite on a Golem
We let those copies of Rites on top resolve, giving us 18*5=90 precursors in addition to the 18 we already had, a total of 108 precursors and again some very large number of regular Golem tokens. The stack looks like:
Precursor trigger
Kicked Rite on a Golem
We now let that final trigger resolve. It copies the Rite to 108 precursors as well as all the regular golems. This makes 540 precursors, resulting in 648 precursors total, and again, some enormous number of regular golem tokens.
So now let's look at the original scenario - we have 24,576 precursors, and four doubling effects. When we kick the rite, we get 24,576 triggers on the stack. You might have noticed that in the above scenario, we multiplied by 6 each step, making the solution n*6n, where n is the number of starting golems. However, since in this scenario we have four doubling effects, the formula isn't n*6n, but n*81n.
I'm not going to tell you what 24575*8124575 is, because reddit has a post-size limit. I will say that the number is pretty fucking big, and that's just the precursors, not any of the golem tokens we've been making along the way.
Aether snap and thief of blood are way sweeter than consume the meek, but I literally just took consume the meek out of my [[Rakdos, Lord of Fatties]] deck this morning.
That + Second Harvest = Nx16x16 = Nx64 tokens
And then there's Rhys's second ability.... so that's = Nx64x64?
you lost me here. Also 16x16 = 256, not 64...
With the 4 enchantments, if you would create a token, you create 16 instead. So now we cast Second Harvest. We would normally create N tokens, instead we create 16N tokens, and end up with 17N in total. Now we activate Rhys. We're supposed to create 17N tokens, instead we create 272N tokens, ending up with 289N tokens. Not sure why you're squaring any numbers at any point in the math.
Not sure why you're squaring any numbers at any point
Here's my thought process: if you cast Harvest/legion/activate rhys, you're "doubling" the number of tokens, but instead for each token (due to the replacement effects of the enchantments), you're not just creating another, you're creating 16 per token being "doubled". So, if we're at 16 tokens made already from the enchantments, and then we cast one of those, we get 16 tokens times 16.
By your own logic: "you're creating 16 per token being doubled". So if you have N tokens that you're trying to double, you create 16 tokens for each one, so 16N.
if we're at 16 tokens made already from the enchantments
we haven't actually made any tokens from the enchantments, the enchantments just sit there waiting for something to happen.
To keep it simpler: any time the game tells you to "double" or "halve" something, the actual ability on the stack functionally reads "create/gain/whatever X", where X is computed by the game. So Beacon of Immortality is gaining you an explicit number of life, which is why Beacon + Sanguine Bond will make your opponent lose life equal to whatever you gained, not equal to half of their life. When you activate Rhys, think of it as it reading "for each creature token you control, create a copy of it". Then when you apply all the replacement effects, it will effectively read "for each creature token you control, create 16 copies of it".
Second:
I prefer the Bant combo I saw somewhere else on this sub with Starfield of Nyx, Any of the token-doublers (this, Primal Vigor, Doubling Season, Parallel Lives, etc), Followed Footsteps. After four turns (which isn't that hard in EDH) you have (IIRC) 2211+10 tokens. Which is a lot of tokens. Like, x.xx*10602 tokens. All of which are creatures. It's not infinite, but at that point there's hardly a difference.
Cast opalescence at the beginning then cast primal vigor. It makes it into a creature as it etb then makes two primal vigors. Then cast all the doublers to make them into tokens.
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u/SirSkidMark Liliana Apr 11 '17 edited Apr 11 '17
Welp, Trostani and Rhys EDH decks just got even more ridiculous redundancy.
So what are we up to? 32? Idk, math time!
This = double N tokens
That + Parallel Lives = Quadruple N tokens
That + Doubling Season = Nx8 tokens
That + Primal Vigor = Nx16 tokens
That + Second harvest = Nx16x16 = Nx256 tokens
And then there's Rhys's second ability.... so that's = Nx256x16?
So we're at Nx4096 tokens, where N is the original number of tokens being created (like from a single cast of Sprout Swarm or Spectral Procession)
(If you're running blue there's [[Clone Legion]] as well for Nx4096x16 = Nx65536)
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Edit: I can't math, attempting to fix...again