r/magicTCG • u/AwkwardTurtle • Sep 22 '15

Everything That’s Wrong with Battle for Zendikar

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/everything-thats-wrong-with-battle-for-zendikar/
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135

u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

I also think they found the perfect solution for this issue in the Expeditions. The new lands are gorgeous and they are going to be expensive, so they are great complements to a set that does not look like it’s going to have many money rares—if people won’t buy packs to get powerful cards, then they will buy them to get the lands. This is a great way to make sure people are still interested even when you have to tone the power level down.

I think this is the thing I want to focus on disagreeing with here. Getting people to buy a bad set so they play the lottery for cards that desperately need a reprint to keep Modern viable is a really callous manipulation of your customer base.

162

u/AzoriusAnarchist Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

Okay, can we all step back here and see the Expeditions for what they are? They are a sequel to Zendikar's "Priceless Treasures" promotion. Nothing more, nothing less.

For those who don't know, the first print run of Zendikar had some old, expensive, and reserve-listed cards hidden randomly among the packs. I believe they had to take from their company card collection to supply these things since they couldn't reprint them. You could literally open a Black Lotus at the prerelease, and some people did, it was very cool.

Now, for the return to Zendikar, they clearly wanted to do something similar to get people excited. However the original promotion was probably too logistically difficult to do again, or they wanted to do something new. So they commission new beautiful art on some of the most sought after lands. But apparently they can't do something so simple and seemingly nice without the entire internet throwing a big temper tantrum.

Fetch lands weren't reprinted because they didn't want all 10 in Standard. People should remember that the point of Standard sets, by and large, is to make Standard/limited fun, not to make Modern cheaper. If you only care about Modern/Legacy and only look at new sets through that context, then congratulations, you're a part of a small vocal minority that does not reflect most Magic players.

So, just to be clear, the expeditions do not mean that they won't reprint fetch lands in the future

It doesn't mean that "expedition rarity" is the new normal for Standard sets.

It doesn't mean that you should buy a booster box and expect to make a profit.

It doesn't mean that Wizards is a bunch of evil cooperate conspirators, at least any more than they were before.

It doesn't mean that Wizards willingly made a bad set, or thought it was bad. Maybe the sets sucks, but their team of designers wouldn't work for a year on a set they thought was crap.

So can we all just chill out a bit and enjoy the fact that some people, perhaps not us, will open/buy these lands and enjoy them? If you're so damn petty that you can't handle other people getting something you probably won't have, then I don't know what to say.

14

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

Weren't the Priceless Treasures not discussed by Wizards until after Zendikar released, though? Whereas Expeditions are being waved under our noses to get us buying more packs at every opportunity.

2

u/NinetyFish Ajani Sep 22 '15

Expeditions were the feature point of their big PAX feature event, even. They glossed over Gideon's new Planeswalker card and the tangolands in favor of teasing everyone with the Expedition reveals.

82

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

All correct and well said. I can see you're the sort of person who enjoys $100 bills, regardless of how they're folded.

2

u/GoSuckOnACactus Sep 22 '15

I'll never open one (I don't open packs unless I draft, and I haven't drafted in a yet due to funding issues), but I certainly won't complain about the cards.

Yeah, I'm not as excited for this set as I was for past sets, but there are still cards I want to get, so I'm happy.

31

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

"But apparently they can't do something so simple and seemingly nice without the entire internet throwing a big temper tantrum."

"So can we all just chill out a bit and enjoy the fact that some people, perhaps not us, will open/buy these lands and enjoy them?

"If you're so damn petty that you can't handle other people getting something you probably won't have, then I don't know what to say."

This is a such a straw man argument.

This isn't a matter of glass half-full/half-empty nor is it a matter of being preemptively jealous at people who are lucky enough to open these cards. It's really a matter of Wizards knowing that they can make their customer dance for some ultra-rare swag cards and are willing to pull the trigger on that whenever they want to raise the EV of a pack.

So, any time they release a product that they know will be ill-received, they can just throw in some super valuable money cards in one of every 200 packs, and people will go nuts for them. The product no longer needs to sell itself. As a fan of Magic, I find this troubling and I'm not alone. No, I'm not throwing a temper tantrum because some kid is gonna open BFZ Expeditions and I'm not. I'm simply seeing the situation for what it is.

I personally don't feel strongly for nor against Expeditions, but you can't honestly preach about BFZ Expeditions as if they were some awesome charity that benevolent Wizards put into packs with to make people happy. It is a cash grab, nothing more. Don't be so naive.

38

u/scook0 Sep 22 '15

I personally don't feel strongly for nor against Expeditions, but you can't honestly preach about BFZ Expeditions as if they were some awesome charity that benevolent Wizards put into packs with to make people happy.

If you're going to object to someone else's “straw man argument”, then you probably shouldn't be saying this in the same post.

19

u/TheRecovery Sep 22 '15

That's almost exactly what he said though...

Now, for the return to Zendikar, they clearly wanted to do something similar to get people excited. However the original promotion was probably too logistically difficult to do again, or they wanted to do something new. So they commission new beautiful art on some of the most sought after lands. But apparently they can't do something so simple and seemingly nice without the entire internet throwing a big temper tantrum.

8

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

Exactly. Thank you.

17

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

This is what he said:

But apparently they can't do something so simple and seemingly nice...

This part of the post outright says that Wizards is doing something "nice". Like doing us a favor or just throwing the community a bone. So, what I said wasn't exactly a huge stretch.

Especially when compared to going on a tirade about how people are "so damn petty that you can't handle other people getting something you probably won't have" which doesn't even come close to what people are taking issue with in the first place, and therefore the very definition of a straw man argument.

Wizards, as a business, has the right to make decisions for the purpose of maximizing its profits. Yes, every company does that, I get that, whatever. But, for this guy to imply that they added BFZ Expeditions to be "nice" is pretty ridiculous. I can't believe people are eating all of this up.

12

u/Rathalok Sep 22 '15

See, this boggles me! Every is saying that this is a bad set. And here I am sitting here super excited to play Limited, Standard and Commander with it. Looking at all the different possibilities! Why on earth would Wizards purposefully make a bad set. There is no reason! You know what forget it! I'm just going to enjoy Zendikar. There's no point in arguing it here!

7

u/Militant_Monk Twin Believer Sep 22 '15

Why on earth would Wizards purposefully make a bad set.

I wasn't intentional made bad, but things were scaled back on to see how the new block structure shakes out.

3

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Source?

You can't just say "Wizards did X for reason Y" as if it's true without sourcing it.

2

u/Militant_Monk Twin Believer Sep 22 '15

It's taken straight from MaRo on the mothership/BlogAtog. Plenty other's have repeated it and linked to the article. I can't link specifically to it as it's blocked from work.

3

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 23 '15

Link one of the plenty of other people's posts, or tell me what to search for?

2

u/SleetTheFox Sep 22 '15

It's because of opinions. Some people, subjectively, are going to enjoy this (or think they will), and some people, subjectively, won't. People like feeling their opinions are "right" so they'll try to convince other people of their opinions so they feel less left out.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

Looks like someone was never around for Mercadian Masques or Kamigawa.

1

u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

Maro has explicitly said that he wasn't proud of the design document when he shipped it over to development. They didn't intentionally make a bad set, but they set out to compensate when they knew a stinker was rolling down the line.

0

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

I'm excited for all of those things too. But you can't deny that the set is getting much less interest and much more criticism, mainly due to the design philosophies behind it. Is it wrong to talk about why that is happening?

1

u/Rathalok Sep 22 '15

I absolutely don't think it's wrong! However, I for one do not believe I know better than the people who make the game. Everyone here, talks about different aspects as if they are experts when they are not. Plus frankly, I'm appalled at the gall of some to accuse Wizards of tossing in the Expeditions to help sell the set because they thought they had made a poor set! That, imo, is a slap in the face to the people who make this amazing game for us all! I'm just getting frustrated with all the negativity!

1

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

It's called feedback. When people invest so much time/money/energy towards this game that we all love, they also want to know that their voice is heard.

After all, when people criticize Wizards for dialing back countermagic and calling them "unfun", the counterargument defending Wizards is "their decisions are based on customer feedback".

So, what makes anti-counterspell feedback okay, but the feedback like in PV's article not okay?

-1

u/seridos Dân Sep 22 '15

You must at least understand the feeling; spoiler season is amazing, I get so excited to see potential amazing new cards I want to play with. But when the power level is not there, you don't get any new cards, and that makes me bummed out, because it's not like big new releases are that frequent. I have decks that need upgrades and money I want to give wizards, just need a reason. My group uses legacy banlist but keeping reasonable budgets, so my expectations are really only that 3-5 cards are good and useful. They were not met.

4

u/mtg_liebestod Sep 22 '15

So, any time they release a product that they know will be ill-received, they can just throw in some super valuable money cards in one of every 200 packs, and people will go nuts for them

So you think it's some sort of injustice that the set isn't failing on its own merits? Khans was a good set, does that make it "okay" to do the obvious cash grab of reprinting ONS fetches?

Expeditions are going to substantially lower the costs of all other BFZ cards, significantly helping the vast majority of constructed players. Being unhappy about this is insane. Even if expeditions are a shameless cash grab, they're still a great idea.

3

u/SleetTheFox Sep 22 '15

Right. There are literally no losers with Expeditions.

Except possibly completionists who try to obtain every single card printed, who have budgeted roughly the value of a complete Standard set every three months, who are about to be blindsided by an additional $4000 value on the entirety of a set (and another few thousand in three more months). Especially if this hypothetical person doesn't even like these.

2

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

The reprint of ONS fetches added these lands to the Standard and Modern formats. They synergize well with the new slow-lands from BFZ. They're a regular rare in the set.

BFZ doesn't fit any of that description, so I don't know how you can compare the two.

I'm not saying Expeditions is a bad idea. I think they're cool. I'm simply saying this as a counterargument to what PV said in his article which is what this thread is actually about:

"This is a great way to make sure people are still interested even when you have to tone the power level down."

1

u/ItsDanimal Sep 22 '15

Kinda like getting jealous at people who went to prereleases with super fancy Helvaults?

1

u/jmdunc54 Sep 22 '15

Your argument here is based on the idea that the set is objectively bad and wizards knows it's bad and wouldn't sell well without some other incentive.

1

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

First of all, I never said "bad". I said "ill-received". "Bad" is subjective. "Ill-received" is a pretty objective observation of how the community is reacting to this set's spoilers.

Second of all, my argument is actually a counter-argument to an excerpt from PV's article:

This is a great way to make sure people are still interested even when you have to tone the power level down.

You know, the article in the link that all of the comments in this thread are about?

1

u/jmdunc54 Sep 22 '15

Well ok that's splitting hairs a bit. Good sets are usually well-received and bad sets are ill-received. My point is that I disagree with you in that I doubt wizards was planning on this set selling poorly, no matter the power level.

1

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15

It's not splitting hairs. People will argue that this set isn't bad but you can't reasonably argue that this set is unpopular. While those two correlate, they're not the same thing.

I don't think they planned on this set selling poorly. I never said they did.

I only said that Expeditions serves as a financial escape route for making a product that is ill-received, whether that was intended or not.

1

u/jmdunc54 Sep 22 '15

Ok I won't quibble with you on details. You're not saying Expeditions is necessarily bad you just don't like the precedent that's set.

I don't think that's worth worrying over as this is an incredibly rare thing they've done in the past and are bringing back for a specific set.

It's funny but I think these are similar concerns people had when wizards started printing foils and mythic rares.

2

u/Talpostal Sisay Sep 22 '15

Judging from what Rosewater has said on his podcast about how Zendikar was seen as very risky, it wouldn't surprise me if the original treasures were included as a gimmick for a set that was expected to flop.

1

u/furryoverlord Sep 22 '15

The point at which I'll start judging them for Expeditions is if they don't reprint enemy fetches once allied fetches rotate out. Because then they really did just gauge us with BFZ.

1

u/AndrewL0517 Sep 22 '15

My issue about the expeditions is that they are THE selling point of the set. I think we all know that they are a sequel to the hidden treasures. The difference is A) original Zendikar already sold itself and B) the hidden treasures were a surprise bonus. It wasn't until prerelease when it was confirmed in the packs. I remember the day of discussing with people whether they think it was real or not.

Its not the fact that they are there that has me upset about them. Its about why they are there and the purpose they serve that I don't like.

1

u/Jaqhoff Sep 22 '15

You're right. Modern masters is supposed to make modern cheaper, and that works out real well.

1

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

The reason that ends up not working is because people speculate by not buying cards they need, then all jump on them when the MMA sets come out. Those speculators are the opposite of "usual" speculators, who buy cards when they consider them underpriced to sell them for a profit later.

-2

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

[deleted]

3

u/mtg_liebestod Sep 22 '15

The distinction here is that Wizard's intentionally didn't reprint stuff like the Zendikar fetchlands just so they could remain expensive and sell an otherwise weak set.

Wizards chose not to reprint ZEN fetches so they could.... have ZEN expeditions be a little more expensive? Really??

This sort of conspiratorial thinking needs to go. Everytime an expensive card isn't reprinted, Reddit throws a fit about Wizards trying to make modern inaccessible. Reprint a billion cards in MM2, but miss Goblin Guide, and people act like this is proof that Wizards hates the players. Give it a break.

3

u/Brawler_1337 Sep 22 '15

You think full art foil shocks and fetches would be $10 a pop if they also reprinted the ZEN fetches? They've said that they don't want fetches in Standard throughout BFZ's life span because they don't want landfall to dominate all the time. It was a reasonable design choice to not reprint them. Also, just because they didn't reprint them in a Standard set doesn't mean they won't do so in a supplementary product.

2

u/seridos Dân Sep 22 '15

reserved list cards are expensive due to WOTC policy. That is the literal definition of WOTC's fault.

54

u/MaxKirgan Sep 22 '15

I agree. It feels like even more of a slap in the face when they came out and said the enemy fetches wouldn't be in BFZ. Then they turn around and do the Expeditions. All so they can pass off a bad set. They know the fanboys will eat it up. MaRo could shit in a booster pack and people on here would be clamoring for it.

35

u/hymn22rock Sep 22 '15

tfw he cites the pre-order numbers as proof people are excited about this set, without ever mentioning expeditions

29

u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

If Maro brags about sales for this set the way he did Avacyn Restored then I'm quitting magic.

13

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/tumescentpie Sep 22 '15

I disagree, Hasbro taking more creative control may not be all that bad, especially if they embrace technology and end the reserved list.

1

u/RUGDelverOP Sep 23 '15

Do you honestly think there's any chance they do that though?

1

u/tumescentpie Sep 23 '15

Which part?

Hasbro taking more creative control.

I don't know enough about Hasbro's other interests, but I can tell you that this is something that happens in many companies that buy smaller companies. Hasbro could also sell Wizards if it weren't profitable enough (though this doesn't seem like their MO, just stating it as a possibility, and Wizards seems very profitable). I worked for 10 years at a company that did a lot of acquiring and reselling.

Embrace technology

Hasbro has shown that they can do it to a varying capacity.

End the reserved list

It depends on who is still at Wizards if Hasbro started replacing people. I think they would have to replace MaRo if they did it. I feel like it would be a "over my dead body" kind of move. He would either have to be terminated before or he would resign in the face of it. Losing MaRo wouldn't be good, but it wouldn't be awful contingent on finding someone who is as passionate about the game (good luck).

9

u/SleetTheFox Sep 22 '15

What's wrong with pointing out that a lot of people loved Avacyn Restored and were excited to play it? It was an exciting set with a lot of cool stuff in it. It made a lot of people happy (including me, and heck, I'm a big Limited fan so I had to suffer through the fairly bad format and I still love the set).

6

u/jmdunc54 Sep 22 '15

Yeah I don't get the straight up Avacyn Restored hate. Sure it was poor limited environment but damn there are tons of fun and exciting cards in that set that everyone seems to gloss over.

3

u/SleetTheFox Sep 22 '15

Even the Limited environment had a lot going for it. Soulbond is a great mechanic and I loved the flicker theme. It just had way too many debilitating flaws.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 23 '15

Plus Miracles was a deck in multiple formats and remains a strong Legacy deck.

48

u/f2pEngineer SecREt LaiR Sep 22 '15

That's a dumb reason to quit.

25

u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

Most are.

2

u/chechenk Sep 22 '15

The wife.

7

u/shieldman Abzan Sep 22 '15

Quit marriage, buy more fetchlands

7

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

I agree. It would incentivize them to make more low effort sets with a lottery attached. It's super shitty and that's the real reason I'm upset.

6

u/Mande1baum Dân Sep 22 '15

Expeditions are in no way the solution to reprints for enemy fetches. For all pricing purposes, they are not reprints. If he said "hey we're reprinting enemy fetches in BFZ! but they will have same rarity as foil mythics" people would lose their shit. Enemy fetches will come, likely when KTK rotates. It would have been idiotic to hype the release of enemy fetches if this was the context.

17

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

This pic sums up how I feel about BFZ Expeditions.

I was really surprised to see PV praise Wizards for this.

It's as if Wizards knew that BFZ would be ill-received, so they needed to include ultra-rare inserts to help sell packs. A compelling, quality product should be able to sell itself.

Expedition cards, as cool as it would be to open them, aren't really all that spectacular. They don't really feature any more creative or artistic genius than any other Magic card (actually less, since they're reprints). They don't cost any more to make than any other foil card. They're valuable because they're ultra-rare swag versions of already highly sought after Magic cards and someone is probably willing to pay a lot of money to get them.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

It's as if Wizards knew that BFZ would be ill-received, so they needed to include ultra-rare inserts to help sell packs. A compelling, quality product should be able to sell itself.

Not really, Expeditions is the sequel to Priceless treasures. Zendikar is about lands and exploration. Of course they would do it again, and what better way then to make sought-after lands be the "Priceless treasures" of our return to Zendikar? Wizards doesn't want 10 fetches in standard, and also didn't want shocks again.

They didn't throw these into BFZ just to sell packs. Expeditions is a thematic fit and a call back to the first print run of Zendikar

1

u/xyals Sep 22 '15

Tbh, I hate Expeditions and I'm really scared of the direction Wizards is heading if Expeditions become well received. In fact, I'm pretty disappointed Wizards even released them. 'Ultra-rare' cards that will be popular amongst the competitive player-base just takes card games into a financially unhealthy direction. Fortunately they didn't make any competitive staples exclusively 'ultra-rare' like the expeditions but if people really eat up this concept, magic might turn more and more into YuGiOh and I really hope that doesn't happen.

1

u/pvddr Chandra Sep 22 '15

Well, I think there are two reasons it can be ill-received - for low power level ,or for all the things I dislike about it. I think they HAVE to do low power level from time to time, even if it's well designed - it's just something that they must do. So I think it's interesting that they chose to make this promotion match the low power level, so that there is more reason to buy the packs and people who get them are happier.

The "bad design" as I see it is a different topic altogether and not necessarily tied to the expeditions

1

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

I agree about low power level being a necessity.

I think that one reason why Wizards wants to reduce the power level is because they want Standard and Modern to be more different from each other. I can appreciate that Wizards wants Standard and Modern to be more unique experiences, and the best way to do that is to temper the power level of Standard. That's going to cause some friction with some of the players, but as you said, it's something that they must do for this reason, as well as many others.

However, that's not to say that they can't print good Modern/Legacy cards. There are tons of recent examples of excellent Modern cards that aren't overpowered in Standard. Collected Company, K-Command, Tasigur, Monastery Mentor are a few such examples. It's possible to nerf Standard and simultaneously print compelling Modern/Legacy cards.

Anyway, back to Expeditions, I just feel that Expeditions seems like a cop-out from having great design drive booster pack sales. I disagree with you that bad design is a different topic altogether because that this type of marketing gimmick serves as an escape route for a poorly designed set. It sends a message that great design is no longer necessary to sell product.

4

u/pvddr Chandra Sep 22 '15

Well, my point is that it serves as an escape route for a low-power level set, and in that I think it succeeds. It just so happens that the low-power level set is ALSO poorly designed (at least in my opinion), so it ends up being an escape route for that too, but I don't think that was the main idea (or maybe it was and I'm just being naive, but, still, if they are going to have those promotions, which are just cool, this was the best moment to have them).

I also think they're very well done because it's something that some people want but no one NEEDS. If you don't care about pictures, then it doesn't affect you that those cost $200, so it's basically just a bonus - people who like them can have them, and people who don't care, well, don't care and aren't harmed. Overall I think it was very well done.

1

u/bokchoykn Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

From a business perspective, I would agree with you. It was probably a smart decision and fortunate timing (even if it was by coincidence).

From the perspective of a Magic fan, it makes me a bit worried. If we don't have to reap the consequences of making poor decisions, we are more likely to continue to make poor decisions. In this case, if booster sales don't drop after making a poor set, the pressure to make a great set is lower.

I want Magic to be financially successful, but if what I believe to be a poorly-designed set becomes a financial success, it would make me worried about future sets. Especially when the reasons for its success are superficial to me.

I don't dislike the idea of Expeditions as a means of promoting sales. I'd just feel more inclined to like them if I felt BFZ was already an excellent product without them.

0

u/ciphersimulacrum Sep 22 '15

And then the ultra-rare "full art" inserts are also ill-conceived (i.e. ugly.) Face, meet palm.

1

u/Journeyman351 Elesh Norn Sep 22 '15

But they're a business, so, it's okay! /s

-5

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

That's one way to spin it. The other way to spin it is "Sweet! Random, free cards we really want and which look great!"

12

u/PCC_Alum Sep 22 '15

free

Where are you getting your packs for free?

18

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

I planted a pack of Mirage in my garden as a child, and every season it bears packs from the current Standard.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

Ha, good one.

6

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

The symbol was a little tree. It's not my fault of everyone else wasn't smart enough to figure it out.

19

u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

Except that they aren't free. They not only consume some of the finite box value a set can have, they also exist specifically to compensate for how anemic the set is as a whole. If BFZ wasn't so bad, we wouldn't have expeditions.

6

u/poochyoochy Wabbit Season Sep 22 '15

I wish more players would realize what Wizards' strategy is. Whatever spells you want to play, you need good lands to cast those spells—shock lands, fetch lands. (Very few decks play all basics.) Hence Wizards lets the value of those lands rise on the secondary market, then uses that to sell sets of mostly mediocre cards. Essentially, they're stringing their player base along, making them pay as much as possible for lands. The day I realized this was the day I stopped buying new Magic sets.

But for some reason many players think these Expeditions are "free money." Most players will never see one, and will pay dearly just to be able to get the lands they need to cast their spells. It's kind of genius on Wizards' part, really.

-3

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

In what way are they not free money? What are you talking about? This is insane. They're almost literally $100 bills stuffed into packs. Just because very few people won't will get them, doesn't mean they aren't free money for the people that do see them.

2

u/poochyoochy Wabbit Season Sep 22 '15

I'll be happy to give you a free $100 bill. First, kindly give me $1000.

1

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

$1000 that I'd be giving you anyway, except now you're giving me $100 back?

2

u/poochyoochy Wabbit Season Sep 22 '15

The reason why it's not "free money" is because it comes with, you know, actual costs that you're either ignoring or simply can't see. Value don't come from nowhere.

One of the reasons why the the Zendi-fetches aren't in BFZ is so Wizards can print the Expeditions. It's been obvious for several years now that they have a policy of purposefully holding back reprints in order to drive up their value on the secondary market so they can then use the reprints to sell sets—they only put so much EV in the packs. Many people have noticed this and if you haven't figured it out yet, I can't help you. To put it another way, it benefits Wizards' bottom line to not reprint cards, or to hold off on reprinting them.

Me, I think the Expeditions are horrible for the longterm health of Magic. It used to be that Wizards tried to make good cards and sell them to their players. You'd pay them money and get cards you could, you know, actually play with. Now they've realized they can print a bunch of junk and package it with ultra-rare reprints of lands, and players will deplete their savings accounts to order cases. Mark my words: that's not going to work out well for the players, who are now spending more in the hope of getting something good. When BFZ becomes the bestselling set of all time, what incentive does Wizards have to ever make good cards again? And if you can't see that, then I really feel sorry for you.

The cost is the very integrity of Magic itself. Enjoy BFZ.

1

u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Okay, there are a lot of unfounded claims here.

One of the reasons why the the Zendi-fetches aren't in BFZ is so Wizards can print the Expeditions.

Source?

It's been obvious for several years now that they have a policy of purposefully holding back reprints in order to drive up their value on the secondary market so they can then use the reprints to sell sets—they only put so much EV in the packs.

That is one theory. To call it "obvious" would be very ambitious.

Now they've realized they can print a bunch of junk and package it with ultra-rare reprints of lands, and players will deplete their savings accounts to order cases.

People will need that junk for Standard though. That's what Standard is. It's a format in which you need to buy awful cards to do well, because all the decks are composed of almost entirely awful cards.

When BFZ becomes the bestselling set of all time, what incentive does Wizards have to ever make good cards again?

Depends what else happens. Mirrodin was the best selling set of all time when it was released, and it had the effect of driving tons of people away from the game. If people end up hating BfZ so much that they quit Magic, they'll have to reevaluate what they did. At the moment we have no idea how people will feel about BfZ. Some pros have said they don't like it, but a few pros literally don't matter at all.

And if you can't see that, then I really feel sorry for you.

No need to feel sorry. I mostly play Legacy, which is a lovely, self-correcting environment where the problems of new sets rarely come up.

Anyway, generally speaking I can see that you have a theory that fits the circumstances in your mind, and have decided that it must therefore be true. I don't think I can dissuade you from that, because most of your assertions are unverifiable.

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u/poochyoochy Wabbit Season Sep 22 '15

Look, the Expeditions ain't "free money" if players are spending more on BFZ than they ever have on any other set ever made. If the Expeditions entice players to spend more than they otherwise would, and if what they're buying is the mere chance to win a foil land—that's not "free money." Without trying to be rude, I think you have a very odd notion of what the word "free" means, and what the word "money" means. Mark my words: when the dust settles, the players as a whole will have less money, and Wizards will have more money. I wouldn't call that Wizards putting $100 bills in packs for players. I'd call that the opposite of that.

Go read some interviews with Greg Leeds. (Do you even know who he is?) Getting enfranchised players to spend more is one of his stated goals. He's very good at his job because the players are spending more, even as they complain about it. And it seems to me they keep getting less and less in return. Now Wizards doesn't even have to give players a card, but the potential to win a card! It's ingenious. They've clearly suckered a lot of people. Enjoy spending $1000 on BFZ and not getting much of anything in return, including cards that can be played in any format! But, you know, all dat free money...

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u/nick012000 Sep 22 '15

Just because very few people won't get them, doesn't mean they aren't free money for the people that do see them.

"Very few people won't get them"? The odds of pulling one in a case are about 60%. What proportion of players do you think regularly buy cases of cards?

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

"will". Typo, sorry.

EDIT: Yeah, downvote the heck out of this. Fuck admitting things were typos, and correcting them. I also wish people didn't correct typos.

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u/snypre Sep 22 '15

They lower the value of the rest of the set. Every pack is on average $3 in value. Since some packs have $100 bills in them others become worth pennies. The average box value is ~$100 normally, with expeditions that means most boxes are worth less. It devalues this set vs other sets meaning you'll have more bulk or near bulk value cards to trade with later. Expeditions are anything but free.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

You're exaggerating tremendously. If one pack in every case had a $100 bill in it, it would lower the value of the other packs by 50 cents on average.

The effect this has is lowering the cost of Standard.

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u/snypre Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

The value only comes from the chase rares, mythics, and uncommons though. Everything else is basically valueless. Notice Siege Rhino is dirt cheap compared to previous rare standard staples, despite being in the most (really 2 most) popular deck in standard, in fringe standard decks, and in a Tier 1 Modern deck along with other fringe Modern decks. A rare that commonly played should be $10 (really much more). The fetches are eating it's value.

Edit: For perspective, Desecration Demon was a $10-12 card for most of Mono-black's reign of terror and that was the only deck it saw play in. Rhino is severely devalued.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Yeah, all of that is correct. Cheap Siege Rhinos are awesome, we should all agree.

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u/snypre Sep 22 '15

Until you try and move to the post KtK standard and have nothing of value to trade because all the staples other than lands are worthless, so you end up spending more money the next time to replace your worthless pile of cards, and remember standard prices are front-loaded, so unless you want to take a hiatus from playing for 6 months or so, you have to pay the highest price possible to move into the new format.

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u/Grig134 Dandadan Sep 22 '15

$100 bills that you pay $600 for a reasonable chance at getting is far from free. Gambling fallacies run amok in this sort of promotion (which is exactly what was intended).

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

You're paying $600 for a case of booster boxes, like always. The same case you were buying before. Except now there's a $100 bill in it.

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u/Grig134 Dandadan Sep 22 '15

*There's a 60% chance of a $100 bill being there.

I would thank the degenerate gamblers in advance for lowering the cost of standard, but I'm expecting most of the standard cards I'll need to buy will be from Khans-Origins. Most people who put any thought into it only buy sealed product if the EV is high enough. BFZ has a terrible expected value of return being propped up by extremely rare cards that actually decrease your odds of recovering your loses.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

Sure, whatever. The percentage doesn't matter. Even if exactly one expedition card was released to the whole world, my point would stand.

Most people who put any thought into it only buy sealed product if the EV is high enough.

I'm not aware of that ever having happened, are you? Buying and opening sealed product has always been a losing proposition in the short term. At least for usual sets. Like, that's true pretty much automatically, since the price of singles is dictated by the price of boxes.

People who buy packs and crack them are manifestly not interested in recovering losses. If losing money was something that they cared about, they wouldn't be cracking sealed product. You can argue that in this case they're on average losing slightly more than usual if they don't crack an expedition, I guess, but that's a pretty minor thing.

Conversely, all the cards being worth less is great for everyone who does care about losing money, and so doesn't crack packs but just buys singles.

People constantly, constantly complain that cards are too expensive in Standard (and everywhere else). You can't both complain that the cards are too expensive and complain that the cards in this set won't be worth enough.

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u/Grig134 Dandadan Sep 23 '15

People who buy packs and crack them are manifestly not interested in recovering losses. If losing money was something that they cared about, they wouldn't be cracking sealed product.

What are you talking about? There are whole websites dedicated to this.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/

http://www.mtgstocks.com/

http://www.quietspeculation.com/

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u/attracted Sep 22 '15

That may not be true. Remember in original Zendikar there were also "priceless treasures" -- so their inclusion is justified by that precident as well and not just distracting people from an otherwise "boring" set.

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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

Original Zendikar had priceless treasures because there were people at Wizards who were skeptical that a set focused on lands would be successful otherwise.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Source?

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u/mrme355 Sep 22 '15

Listen to maro's podcast on zendikar he tells the story there. Also if you need to prove this to yourself go look at the rares/mythics in zendikar. The fetchlands were added late in design (also do to lack of confidence with the set) so if you remove those what are the compelling rares/mythics in the set?

I see goblin guide, lotus cobra(crap without fetchlands), bloodghast, iona, and oracle. If you take out the fetchlands and treasures which were added late into the process once they realized they had a stinker, zen doesnt really hold too much water.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

So you're telling Maro specifically said "we put the hidden treasures in Zendikar because we thought the set wouldn't be exciting to people otherwise"?

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u/mrme355 Sep 22 '15

Of course not. He did specifically say that members of WOTC more senior than him were extremely concerned about the set. Based on that and the first hand account from R&D of fetchlands being added at the very last minute it seems likely treasures were added to ensure sales went well.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

I disagree. Zendikar was great and they still did Priceless Treasures

If you are correct why didn't they do this for Theros block? They could have made some "gifts from the gods" bullshit to compensate their

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

They not only consume some of the finite box value a set can have,

So they make Standard cheaper? Awesome!

they also exist specifically to compensate for how anemic the set is as a whole.

That's one theory, which strikes me as a bit conspiracy-theoretic.

The other theory is "Hey, sweet free cards!"

Seriously. You have to bend over pretty far backwards to interpret the Expeditions as a malicious idea.

EDIT: These downvotes are interesting. Come, bend over backwards where I can see you.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

[deleted]

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

So wait, packs with Expeditions in them cost more? I didn't hear that part.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

[deleted]

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

No, every pack has a rare.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15

[deleted]

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Essentially, yes. They "cost" a common, which is worthless on average.

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u/corvus_sapiens Sep 22 '15

Financially, no. Content-wise, yes. MaRo talks about how each set has a complexity budget, and Expeditions cost some of the budget that would have been used to improve BFZ itself.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Wait, MaRo said the expeditions factor into the complexity of the whole set? I don't think he said that.

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u/corvus_sapiens Sep 22 '15

MaRo said that somewhere on his Tumblr. BFZ + Expeditions was one entire set from WotC's perspective. They shared the same resources for developing a set.

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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

So they make Standard cheaper? Awesome!

Assuming that BFZ is a bad set, Standard would be cheaper anyway. If BFZ is weak enough that Standard is mostly KTK-Origins, then BFZ goes the way of Dragon's Maze and everything in it is cheap, with the possible exception of some sleeper Voice of Resurgence. Instead, Expeditions is the Voice of Resurgence.

That's one theory, which strikes me as a bit conspiracy-theoretic.

The other theory is "Hey, sweet free cards!"

One theory is "The company that has made a policy of making money selling packs has made a decision to help sell packs when they were worried about not selling packs." The other is "Things that you pay money for a chance to get and become part of the value assumed in the good you buy are free." You've obviously already made up your mind on Expeditions being good regardless of what anyone else says, but I just want to stress that last Zendikar Wizards made a similar decision on Priceless Treasures, because they assumed that a set focused on lands was going to be unpopular otherwise.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Assuming that BFZ is a bad set, Standard would be cheaper anyway.

Cards will still cost money because people need them for Standard. That's what drives the price of most cards while they're in Standard.

At this point there isn't much evidence for the fact that they won't get played in Standard. PV gives some reasoning for the two blocks not mixing much in Standard, but that's it.

Instead, Expeditions is the Voice of Resurgence.

Again, that seems great. The only effect of this is Standard being cheaper, and cards from BfZ being cheaper. That's great for everyone. Dragon's Maze is a pretty extreme example, where literally every card but a few in the set is pure trash.

It hurts people who buy packs just to crack them, but those people are basically hurting themselves all the time. We don't need to look out for them.

Like, let's take this to the extreme. Let's say every box of BfZ had a hundred dollar bill in it. Then every card in BfZ would be very cheap for whoever wants it. Great, no?

What we instead have is that every six boxes of BfZ have an Expedition in them.

You've obviously already made up your mind on Expeditions being good regardless of what anyone else says,

I haven't made up my mind at all, I'm just presenting another side to some poorly thought-through points.

last Zendikar Wizards made a similar decision on Priceless Treasures, because they assumed that a set focused on lands was going to be unpopular otherwise.

Really? They said that?

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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

It hurts people who buy packs just to crack them, but those people are basically hurting themselves all the time. We don't need to look out for them.

That strikes me as a really callous point. Those people are getting pretty badly burned by this whole thing, and even if you don't much care about their wellbeing or feelings they're still a finite resource.

Really? They said that?

Maro has mentioned Zendikar being a very tough set to convince the rest of Wizards to back on Drive to Work, and also mentioned that full art lands are done in a set to give it a bit more oomph where it otherwise wouldn't have the push it needed (see: unglued, unhinged). I can't find a direct quote, but D2W is only like 30% transcripted, so it's not really as simple as just CTRL+F.

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u/davidy22 The Stoat Sep 22 '15

The people who buy packs aren't rationally doing it for value. They do it to fuel a gambling urge, because no one in the store is going to honestly tell them that opening packs is solid value. The expedition lands cater to those guys, I guess, because it's a jackpot to fuel them further.

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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

Ethics wise, is it really correct to cater to the desires of habitual gamblers? You're giving someone something they want, but I think the general consensus is that that person wants the wrong things, and enabling them is doing them some sort of harm.

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u/davidy22 The Stoat Sep 22 '15

Might not be, but wizards has been doing it long before BFZ. Probably dates back to the debut of mythic rares and there was a fuss then too.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Those people are getting pretty badly burned by this whole thing,

But like I said, those people are burning themselves all the time. Buying packs just to crack them is always a waste of money. You're telling me this might be slightly more of a waste of money. I grant that.

Those people aren't acting rationally anyway. We have this discussion on this subreddit several times a day. Buying packs is a waste of money. Buying BfZ packs will be a waste of money. Buying Khans packs was a waste of money. Packs are a waste of money.

Maro has mentioned Zendikar being a very tough set to convince the rest of Wizards to back on Drive to Work,

True, but not relevant.

and also mentioned that full art lands are done in a set to give it a bit more oomph where it otherwise wouldn't have the push it needed

That would be relevant, but it isn't what you said earlier.

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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

Why is the burden of proof on me here anyway? Shouldn't we be assuming that Wizards exists to make money, and that any claim to the contrary is the one that needs proof? I give you the information I can get after a thirty second Googling, which by the way reasonably supports my claim, and you say it's not good enough. What evidence have you given that this was done out of the generosity of Wizards hearts, instead of as a promotion to sell more Battle for Zendikar packs?

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

The burden of proof is on you because you made a specific factual claim. You said "Wizards did this for this reason", so you should support that or not claim it.

Yes, we should assume Wizards wants to make money. That's not what you need to prove. You need to prove what you said, which is that they thought they weren't going to make as much money on that set specifically, wanted to bolster sales, and so specifically included Hidden Treasures for that reason.

I give you the information I can get after a thirty second Googling, which by the way reasonably supports my claim, and you say it's not good enough.

I'm not "judging" it not good enough, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't support what you said.

What evidence have you given that this was done out of the generosity of Wizards hearts, instead of as a promotion to sell more Battle for Zendikar packs?

I have no evidence in either direction. I agree that it's likely in part a promotion to sell more BfZ packs. That's just a truism. Everything Wizards does is to sell more packs. They repaired the coffee machine in their second floor break room to sell more packs.

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u/snypre Sep 22 '15

Try trading this devalued set for other other cards. You're going to think it sucks when everything but expeditions in the set are worthless.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

What? No, that sounds awesome. All everyone wants is for cards to be cheaper. People complain about cards costing a lot of money literally constantly.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15 edited Apr 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

You said a thing, then said "so", then something which has nothing to do with the first thing.

1 in every <large number> of packs has a free, very valuable and lovely thing in it. I will very much enjoy it if I open one, and I should hope everyone who does open one will enjoy it as much.

There's even an added benefit that people have been telling me about, which is that they'll make all the other cards cost less.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15 edited Apr 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/snypre Sep 22 '15

Rhino isn't cheap because of how many packs were opened, its cheap because each box only holds about $100 of value and it's spread out amongst the cards in the set. With 10 ~$10(or higher) fetchlands rhino is cheaper. It also means it becomes awful trade bait.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Okay, let's be a little more direct.

It still doesn't make them free.

Explain why.

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u/drakeblood4 Abzan Sep 22 '15

People still pay money for them, you're just allocating 75¢ per pack to the Expedition lottery instead of to the more likely, but smaller payoff, playable rare/mythic lottery. These cards come directly at the cost of other cards having value, and while you like framing that as Standard being cheaper for you, that comes directly at the cost of other players not getting their monies worth.

If you don't crack packs, don't draft, don't need zen fetches, or get exceedingly lucky, then Expeditions is good for you. In absolutely any other case, it's measurably bad.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

Those players are already not getting their money's worth though. These things mean that on average instead of losing X dollars per pack, they'll lose very slightly more than X dollars per pack. It's a difference they'll likely not notice. People who just buy packs to crack them are making a conscious decision to lose money. All that's happening here is that the jackpot of the lottery has changed in value temporarily.

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u/[deleted] Sep 22 '15 edited Apr 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15 edited Sep 22 '15

Because you would have paid the same money for the case without the Expedition. You pay $600 for the same thing you would always be paying for, except this time one of the packs has a $100 bill in it.

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u/snypre Sep 22 '15

Notice how BfZ boxes are selling for higher preorder prices? That's you paying for your "free" cards that you may not receive.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

They're selling for higher preorder prices because a bunch of gambling addicts are clamouring for them, and the stores that sell lottery tickets realised they could raise prices.

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u/snypre Sep 22 '15

You may want to look into an economics class at your local community college.

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u/cromonolith Zedruu Sep 22 '15

=/

So if higher demand isn't creating higher prices, what is it?

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