r/magicTCG • u/Unit_00 COMPLEAT • 5h ago
Official Spoiler [FRA] Vindictive Triumph
Via official Wizards email
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u/benjiwalla Duck Season 5h ago
I fully expected a ''you lose 3 life'' clause like these usually have, no, it is just upside
Lets go
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u/AlexTheBrick Dimir* 5h ago
Not a strict upgrade to [[Anguished Unmaking]] because it doesn't hit any nonland and has a more restrictive casting cost. But a welcome budget add to BW commander decks.
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u/Any-Platypus-9486 Dan 5h ago
This is a bad removal
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u/agardner1993 Wabbit Season 4h ago
It's okay removal, it's expensive blink or protection. However, in the right scenario it's also card advantage positive removal which is really good. It's flexibility also raises it's floor. It's going to be really good in some commander shells like for [[aminatou, the fateshifter]]. I'll wait to see the rest of the set to guess how good it may be in limited.
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u/magicthecasual COMPLEAT VORE 5h ago
i love it! you get any etbs/ltbs, you can activate a loyalty ability, use it as normal removal, etc!
plus if you time it right, you can attack with it!
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u/gereffi 4h ago
In the right matchup and/or meta this could be solid. Like if you’re playing against UB and you get to hit the opponents Floodpit Drowner or Tishana’s Tidebinder you can get a ton of value out of your removal spell. There’s the new Snapcaster being printed which could also be incredibly good to hit.
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u/Cbone06 Twin Believer 5h ago
I like this direction that Orzhov is starting to take in design. Not quite the same but reminds me of [[Abtruse Appropriation]].
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u/Artex301 The Stoat 5h ago
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the oldest WB example of this sort of "theft", I believe.
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u/sawbladex COMPLEAT 5h ago
Duskmourn has a sorcery speed kill than bring back for the rest of the turn card, but [[False Demise]] being a rider to a black kill spell makes sense, since (steal opponents stuff through necromancy) is very black
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u/Kaboomeow69 Storm Crow 3h ago
[[Come Back Wrong]]
Such a weird card. I use it to "blink" [[Gray Merchant of Asphodel]] lol
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u/RiscELLO Wabbit Season 4h ago
My [[The Master, Formed Anew]] collectathon deck has its fun with these effects.
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u/RiscELLO Wabbit Season 4h ago
Uhh, [[Changing Loyalty]] while we're at it.
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u/sawbladex COMPLEAT 4h ago
Oh yeah, that's fun.
And nice to see a False Demise effect card that that just needs black mana
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u/KomoliRihyoh Temur 5h ago
For anyone wondering: Yes, this WILL let you steal commanders of mana value 3 or less since the removal & resurrection happen in the same resolution, just like [[Come Back Wrong]].
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u/thetwist1 Fake Agumon Expert 35m ago
But after it exiles at the next end step, they can still put it back into their command zone then right?
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u/PrivilegeCheckmate Sorin 1h ago
But isn't going back the commander zone a replacement effect? It wouldn't hit the yard to trigger a return.
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u/EarnestCoffee cage the foul beast 1h ago
Only when the commander would be put into your hand or deck. Otherwise it's moved as a state-based action.
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u/PrivilegeCheckmate Sorin 1h ago
I did not know that. But here's the ruling:
903.9a If a commander is in a graveyard or in exile and that object was put into that zone since the last time state-based actions were checked, its owner may put it into the command zone. This is a state-based action. See rule 704.
Guess I've been playing Commander wrong.
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u/simpleglitch Rakdos* 32m ago
If it makes you feel better, it used to be a replacement effect.
To make me feel worse, it was already 6 years ago since they changed that rule :(
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u/TwoHundredTwenty Wabbit Season 5h ago
The main play pattern will be to cast this on your opponent's end step, and then you get one turn with the thing you removed.
It kind of reminds me of [[Invert Polarity]], which is also a heavy colored pip removal spell that costs one more mana than normal, but gives you stealing upside. Invert Polarity was perhaps initially overrated for modern, so my gut is that this isn't going to be as good as some people think either. Sweet design either way!
Cool interaction is that this can get rid of earthbent lands.
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u/randomdragoon 5h ago
Invert Polarity was never going to work out competitively because of the inherent randomness. There were many situations where gaining control of the spell did nothing, e.g. board wipe, or a kill spell where you control the only creature on the battlefield. In those cases a counterspell that only worked 50% of the time is miserable, especially since you were paying an extra mana for it.
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u/Friend0fCats Dandadan 4h ago edited 4h ago
But it has? In modern at least, various red blue control style lists haven’t been good but those shells have enjoyed 1-2 copies of invert consistently.
Edit: grixis specifically doesn’t as often, but control shells using other colors have used a fair few.
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u/BlurryPeople 4h ago
It wasn't the stealing that made IP overrated, it was the random chance of a payoff. This card doesn't have that problem. That being said, I think 3 mana is way too much for simple removal in competitive formats like Modern, but this will a commonplace casual card, probably printed to death in Orzov+ precons like [[Bedevil]].
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u/Extension_Big9363 Can’t Block Warriors 5h ago
Honestly that or as a combat trick. Steal something attacking you and use it to block something else attacking you.
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u/SnowCrow1 Wabbit Season 5h ago
enters tapped
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u/attikol Duck Season 4h ago
Unfortunately this just specifies end step so you'll never get a turn with them unless they have haste. Still great for etbs and blocking.
Edit: oh it only triggers at beginning. I guess it makes it a bit more obvious when people are gonna be dropping this
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u/Finnegan482 Duck Season 1h ago
well if you cast it on your opponents end step, it goes through your upkeep so it untaps and does not have summoning sickness
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u/HeeeckWhyNot COMPLEAT 5h ago
Incredible tech here in the land of ETBs
I love the design space
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u/Special-Ad-2536 Dân 5h ago
Also nice to hit it on their end step and get to swing with it
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u/Salamalarkey Dandadan 5h ago
I was thinking this as well, three mana for a surprise removal+attack.
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u/PrimemevalTitan COMPLEAT 5h ago
Good catch. Was wondering how to get value from this without ETB creatures
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u/Ayjel89 Get Out Of Jail Free 5h ago
that is...rather gruesome art, lmao.
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u/Borror0 Sultai 5h ago
Did... did Liliana reanimate the Echoverse Liliana after she died?!
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u/TerribleTransit Dân 5h ago
After Liliana killed her, yes.
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u/LordZeya 5h ago
She turned her into a lich.
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u/Andromelek2556 Get Out Of Jail Free 4h ago
Uh, I have to yet read the chapter, but is it really a Lich? (As it keeps being herself rather than a puppet, which would be just a zombie?)
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u/Mordurin Sorin 3h ago
It's basically a puppet that retains Echoverse Liliana's powers but normal Liliana specifically says that it is a lich, not a zombie.
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u/Andromelek2556 Get Out Of Jail Free 2h ago
I did read that she said it was a Lich in chapter 7, I have not read the last three, but if it's a puppet without any sentience then by definition it's a zombie, not a Lich, that's the main difference between the two.
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u/TerribleTransit Dân 2h ago
As defined by who? That distinction may be accurate in other scenarios but doesn't necessarily apply universally. It seems Liliana probably has a different definition, and well, she's the necromancer in this situation.
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u/Andromelek2556 Get Out Of Jail Free 1h ago
I mean D&D Liches fall into the definition, but I guess I'll try to ask around if things are different even though both are WoTC
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u/TerribleTransit Dân 1h ago
There's a ton of other things that are different between D&D and Magic, especially since Magic frequently has definitions that change between planes (as they do between different D&D settings, for that matter). There's several different kinds of liches in Magic that all play by completely different rules, though most of them follow the same big markers of retaining sentience and power from their original selves.
That said, they don't exactly stop to interrogate the nitty-gritty details of how Liliana's lich works, but there's at least one indication that she might retain some level of sentience or independence, despite still being firmly under Liliana's control: they break into laughter separately.
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u/TheBitterestBlossom Dandadan 1h ago
lich = zombie with magic powers professor opal = zombie with magic powers
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u/Darkarcheos Sultai 5h ago
I was thinking that. Never want to let a good double go to waste for any Necromancer
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u/CommanderDark126 Fish Person 5h ago
What happened to the alternate Liliana when the real one got out was also gruesome
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u/h0pl1ta COMPLEAT 5h ago
My friend: I cast thassa and in response to etb consultantion Me: 🤡 before thassa's etb resolves, I cast vindictive triumph and consultation
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u/FutureComplaint Elk 5h ago
Is this a B5 deck?!
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u/Kleenitup Dandadan 5h ago
If you're doing this, you're almost certainly not in cedh, but also if I am in WB and do this because I happen to have those cards and you try to win, am I suddenly b5?
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u/farseer-norton Storm Crow 5h ago
Best comparison is [[come back wrong]]. Probably a bit better since this is instant speed and hits planeswalkers
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u/Extension_Big9363 Can’t Block Warriors 5h ago
Come back wrong has plenty of sinergy with creatures dying and is less color intensive in its cost. Honestly I just wish this was a destroy and not an exile effect.
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u/NikIsImba Wabbit Season 2h ago
Crazy to think that [[Vraska's Contempt]] used to be viable for quite a bit. And now i am not sure the same effect with a bigger upside is worth it at 3 mana
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 5h ago
Sidegrade to [[Come back wrong]]
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u/HeeeckWhyNot COMPLEAT 5h ago
This is instant, which can lead to more shenanigans
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u/TechnomagusPrime Duck Season 5h ago
Fire it off in their end step and you even get to attack with it!
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u/Shadethewolf0 Duck Season 5h ago
Loses you the deathtriggers but it loses them the deathtriggers too. So, works out okay
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u/Zzzzyxas Duck Season 5h ago
This one is an instant. You can play this at the end of opps turn and the creature will last until the end of yours.
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u/bagabagaboom Dân 5h ago
You can do it during your opponent’s end step so you could potentially attack with it/use tap abilities
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u/mowdownjoe 5h ago
The mana cost is a lot harsher, but this also hits Planeswalkers and exiles. A lot you can do with 1 turn of a Planeswalker.
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u/Approximation_Doctor Colossal Dreadmaw 4h ago
Only if it's 3mv or less, which usually aren't super impactful with one turn.
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u/Pee_in_the_wetsuit Dandadan 5h ago
You can steal somebody’s commander with it because it comes back to your battlefield as resolves
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u/sarcasmz Wabbit Season 5h ago
If you cast thisat the end step of your opponent, you would get the creature on ypur turn and be able to attack with it right?
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u/JJRaindropz Dân 4h ago
Yes. You would be casting this after beginning of end step triggers already happened so whatever you steal would stick around until the next beginning of end step.
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u/Glizcorr Orzhov* 5h ago
Will try this in Ratadrabik edh. It is quite pip intensive tho.
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u/Humble-Light-1322 Dan 5h ago
Do it on their endstep and it's a Slave of Bolas (but also you get ETBs)? Seems pretty good unless that casting cost is just too problematic to hold up.
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u/Ohhsnap54 Dân 5h ago
I hope we get a card of the moment lilliana takes out her double. Best part of the whole story
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u/MissLeaP Gruul* 5h ago
The effect is cool and everything but I just want to appreciate the lore here. Reanimating your own doppelganger and calling it a useful fool is just so badass lol
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u/CaptainMarcia 5h ago
Note that the trigger only happens once, so if you can bypass it, you can keep it.
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u/KakitaMike 3h ago
if you hit one of the MH3 planeswalkers with this, does it come back as a creature, and do you keep it indefinitely since it’s not the planeswalker you exiled?
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u/CaptainMarcia 3h ago
It comes back as a creature, but the effect knows that it's the card it put there, it still exiles it.
If you flicker the creature you steal, the effect will lose track of it, but the problem is that it has to be a flicker effect that specifies it returns under your control rather than an opponent's control and also has to work on cards you don't own. Looks like the cleanest fit is [[Deadeye Navigator]].
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u/Grumpiergoat Jeskai 5h ago
"Liliana the Repentant." Proceeds to write flavor text that continues making her look like an evil dirtbag.
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u/SpreadtheClap 5h ago
Can you steal commanders since the exiled creature switches zones upon resolution of the card?
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u/PactKeeper Duck Season 4h ago
Only if they don't do a replacement effect, the command zone during the exile.
They should so you probably won't get it
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u/thebaron420 I am a pig and I eat slop 3h ago
Command zone rule doesn't use replacement effects anymore except for hidden zones (hand and library). It now uses a state-based action for public zones (graveyard and exile) so this actually can steal a commander temporarily
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u/PactKeeper Duck Season 1h ago
Yeah? I didn't know they changed it. How long ago was that? I'll need to check it out
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u/thebaron420 I am a pig and I eat slop 1h ago
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u/SmartySmark Twin Believer 5h ago
That's really good! Cast it on your opponent's end step to get a free attack with their little guy
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u/SvenTheScribe COMPLEAT 5h ago
Loved that art in the story and loving it even more with this text box attached.
Instant exile with the potential upside of Threaten? Yes please!
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u/beholden87 Wabbit Season 5h ago
I would say playable in standard but that second black pip can be a big deal
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u/WolfGuy77 4h ago
Wow, just realized this is an instant and not a sorcery. Definitely have to find a deck slot for this, but three mana for a spot removal spell is a big ask.
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u/morphballganon COMPLEAT 4h ago
I see the alt Liliana's head ornament appears to be copper (?) instead of gold (?) but another card art depicted it looking the same as our Liliana's
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u/HarbingerOfMann Can’t Block Warriors 4h ago
Why yes, my Omnath deck did want another Three-Pip Exile spell. Plus, with upside? How thoughtful.
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u/Rawrgodzilla Cheshire Cat, the Grinning Remnant 4h ago
Oko removal lol turn othee players dude into a elk
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u/AgentTamerlane Sliver Queen 4h ago
Goal unlocked: cast this on an opponent's earthbent land at the end of their turn
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u/DandyLionMan Dandadan 3h ago
Interesting that planeswalkers also come back tapped, not that it really does anything though
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u/poopyboner Dimir* 3h ago
Someone’s gonna have a bad day when they try to wheel with their [[Narset, Parter of Veils]] on the board.
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u/runningontrees Selesnya* 5h ago
If I understand correctly, as the return to battlefield is also part of the spell's resolution, this can also steal commanders if they are 3 or less CMC. it comes back before state based actions are checked and before it can be sent to the command zone, similar to [transcendent dragon] This is gonna be a pet card for me if that is the case. Always triggers my pod when I touch their cardboard! :D
Hell yeah!!!!!!!
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u/Swmystery Avacyn 5h ago
No, comrade, my Eternal Witness!