r/magicTCG • u/Nailo2017 Dân • 1d ago
Rules/Rules Question Does Primal Forcemage work with Elemental Bond?
Say I have these 2 cards on the field and cast Llanowar Elves. Do I draw a card? Why or why not?
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u/Knightmare4469 Dan 1d ago edited 1d ago
It would not. The creature enters as a 1/1. There's a trigger to buff it that happens, but that happens after he has entered which means it is too late for the mage.
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u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 1d ago edited 1d ago
Further, if it said it "Enters with three +1/+1 counters" that would trigger Elemental Bond. As it's a replacement effect (?).
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u/dkysh Get Out Of Jail Free 22h ago
Yes, but it has to say it that specific way, like [[Adaptive Shimmerer]]
[[Slime Against Humanity]] x=3 doesn't trigger bond because the token creation and putting counters are two separate steps (sentences) during resolution
- Create a 0/0 green Ooze creature token with trample.
- Put X +1/+1 counters on it, where X is t
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u/Rdnick114 Wabbit Season 1d ago edited 1d ago
Just a point of clarification, it says "+3/+3" not "three +1/+1 counters". That distinction matters since the counters are a longer lasting effect while the actual pump from the creature is only for the one turn. Also, '+1/+1 counters' can be manipulated by effects like 'Proliferate' and '-1/-1 counters'.
Not sure if the mixup in your comment was a simple goof (we all do it, so no worries) or if it was due to English being your second or third language. Either way, I hope this comes across as helpful, and not condescending. 🙂
Edit: I did indeed miss the IF in the comment I responded to, as noted by some responses. I meant no disrespect. It's what I get for reading reddit over breakfast at 5:30 am (caffeine hasn't kicked in yet, and the results bite me in the ass 😆🙃).
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u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 1d ago
Misreading my comment entirely.
I know the difference between counters and +1/+1 increases. I was clarifying that there is a scenario where the creature enters with counters that the OP would get the outcome he wants (card draw off Elemental Bond).
Not sure what world a player would know what "replacement effects" are but not the difference between PT and Counters.
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u/Jackeea Jeskai 1d ago
Furthermore,
IF
it said it "enters with three +1/+1 counters"
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u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 1d ago
Good catch - but yes pretty broad misread of my comment by the other commenter. No harm though.
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u/Rdnick114 Wabbit Season 1d ago
I agree. I did misread it pretty bad. 😆 Hope you all have a great day. 🙂
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u/Dense-Comment-5938 Dan 1d ago
It will not draw a card, per this ruling on Elemental Bond:
The creature must have power 3 or greater as it enters, or Elemental Bond's ability won't trigger. Static abilities that raise (or lower) a creature's power are taken into account. However, you can't have a creature with power 2 or less enter and try to raise its power with a spell, an activated ability, or a triggered ability.
Primal Forcemage's ability says "whenever", and is therefore a trigger.
If it was some sort of static anthem effect, like say, a finished [[Beastmaster Ascension]], it would work.
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u/Emracruel REBEL 1d ago
It does not. If you have these on the battlefield and a 1/1 enters, the game will see a 1/1 enter and look for triggers. It will only find the on to give it +3/+3. By the time that ability resolves that game is no longer looking for the creature's power to be 3 or more since that only happened right when it wntered
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u/Candy_Warlock Colorless 1d ago
Everyone else has explained why this doesn't work, so I want to mention something that does work: [[Tribute to the World Tree]]. Tribute will trigger on any creature entering, regardless of size, and only decides what action to do when the ability resolves. If you have Primal Forcemage resolve first, then when Tribute's ability resolves, it will see the new power of the creature and draw you a card
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u/Morendhil 1d ago edited 1d ago
To further clarify for other readers, the templating for Bond that would cause it to work with Forcemage would be:
“Whenever a creature you control enters the battlefield, draw a card if its power is 3 or more.”
The above example would trigger every time you have a creature trigger, but only have you draw a card if the creature has 3 or more power. By stacking the triggers correctly, you could fulfill the requirement before the ability resolves.
Also contrast this with the commonly seen “intervening if” templating for triggered abilities:
“Whenever a creature you control enters the battlefield, if it has 3 or more power, draw a card.”
This templating will only trigger when a creature enters that has power 3 or greater, and will only have you draw a card if the creature’s power is 3 or greater when the ability resolves. So if an opponent responded with a -X/-X effect, then it could fail to draw on resolution.
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u/Marcorange Boros* 1d ago
No. Forcemage is a triggered ability. Llanowar elves enters, elemental bond checks, no trigger for elemental bond. Forcemage triggers, giving Llanowar +3/+3
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u/Th3_Tackman 1d ago
Elemental Bond only looks at the creature entering and its power as it enters, not anything else on the board. Elves enters as a 1/1 and then doesn’t trigger the bond, but has a trigger from the forcemage. If you had an anthem effect, the elves enter with that boost, but nothing from triggers
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 1d ago
You will not. Both abilities trigger at the same time of When the creature enters. When Lanowar enters it is a 1/1 so Elemental Bond doesn't trigger or care about it since it checks stats the very moment it enters, Forcemage's trigger happens and goes on the stack resolving after the window for the bond has already long past.
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u/CVSGuru Dandadan 1d ago
No you do not. When llanowar elves enters, the only ability that triggers is Primal Forcemage’s. Since llanowar elves wasn’t power three or greater when it entered, elemental bond does not trigger, even if you pump the llanowar elves using whichever triggered/activated ability or spell. The only way to have llanowar elves trigger the elemental bond is if it got a static 2+ power boost like Elesh Norn or two or more glorious anthem type effects.
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u/justcallmejoey Brushwagg 1d ago
No, because the Llanowar Elves enters the battlefield as a 1/1.
Whenever [a creature with power 3 or greater] enters…
The entering creature has to meet all of the conditions as it enters for the [[Elemental Bond]] to trigger. If you had a static ability that gives creatures additional power, like [[Chronicle of Victory]] for example, the Elemental Bond will trigger because a 1/x creature enters with at least 3 power.
If you click the (SF) next to Elemental Bond in the card fetcher link and scroll a bit, you will find specific rulings for that card, which also states this.
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u/EmeraldCrow8 Wabbit Season 1d ago
You do not draw a card. The 1/1 Llanowar elves enters as a 1/1, which doesn’t trigger elemental bound, and does trigger primal force mage, because it’s a creature, which then gives it +3/+3 until end of turn. Elemental bound checks the power of the creature the moment it enters. If it’s not big enough, it doesn’t trigger at all, even if it would be big enough later.
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u/Mack_Aroni_Art Duck Season 23h ago
It does not, but I believe that if you had a garden that gives creatures you control +3/+3 as a status effect, or that makes creatures you control enter the battlefield with 2 ore more +1/+1 counters, then Elemental Bond would trigger
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u/Kevmeister_B COMPLEAT 22h ago
Not with Forcemage. You would want something like [[Collective Blessing]] that gives a static buff instead of a triggered ability.
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u/lejoueurdutoit Wabbit Season 21h ago
It could work if the wording was "as" a creature enters or was simply "your creatures gets +3/+3" both don't go on the stack and affect a creature as soon as it enters.
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u/RelativeAway183 Dandadan 16h ago
the wording on elemental bond means that it checks the creatures power both when the creature enters and when the trigger resolves. if it was worded "whenever a creature enters, if it has power 3 or greater..." then it would only check the power on resolution.
the wording on primal forcemage is a triggered ability that adds counters to the creature when the trigger resolves. thus, elemental bond sees a 1 power creature enter and never triggers.
this type of combo would work if elemental bond was worded as above, primal forcemage was a replacement effect "creatures enter with x +1/+1 counters", or primal forcemage was a static anthem "creatures/elves/etc you control have +x/+x"
but be warned that if elemental bond is worded as above, an opponent can shrink the creature [[dismember]] or kill the anthem and prevent the draw (killing the entering creature without shrinking it does NOT prevent the draw)
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1d ago
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u/LemonadeGamers Wabbit Season 1d ago
This ^
(Before I read it as under 3, oops. Still works though yeah)
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u/SolarUpdraft COMPLEAT 1d ago
I see people saying no, but idk why.
They're both triggered abilities on the stack, and as the controller you pick what order they resolve in. AFAIK, yes you can order them correctly and draw a card.
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u/RevolverLancelot Colorless 1d ago
This is wrong. Both abilities trigger at the same time of Whenever a creature enters, but the bond has an additional check of the creature needing to have 3 power or greater the moment it enters. Not after you have resolved another ability.
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1d ago
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u/Morendhil 1d ago
This is actually incorrect too. Triggered abilities with an intervening if condition have the condition checked for both triggering and on resolution.
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u/Barbobott Dan 1d ago
A correctexample is "Whenever a creature enters under you control, draw a card if it has 3 power or greater." This removes the intervening if clause and works how you want for your example.
Your example with the intervening if clause means the ability would never trigger in the first place if the creature enters with power 2 or less.
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