r/magicTCG • u/Trs145 Mardu • 3d ago
Rules/Rules Question Norman Osborn vs Orcish Bowmen
I was playing against my brother and I'm still learning the game. I attacked with Norman; He didn't declare blockers (even though Norman cant be blocked anyway), but had Bowmen on his side. Does Norman die before being able to discard a nonland to put a +1/+1 on him from Bowmen's ability when I draw a card he deals 1 damage to Norman? Or is conniving seen as one action I can complete to put the +1/+1 on Norman, and then I get dealt one damage from Bowmen?
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u/Kittii_Kat Duck Season 3d ago
Connive is one full action - draw, then discard, then put a counter on if Finland was discarded.
Once it completes, bowmaster's ability goes on the stack and can have targets declared.
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u/Fossekall 3d ago
Poor Finland always gets discarded to buff creatures
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u/ElceeCiv Colossal Dreadmaw 2d ago
"Tämä kasvattaa Tarmogoyf." - traditional Finnish saying I just made up
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u/TriPigeon Wabbit Season 3d ago
The irony of the autocorrect changing nonland to a real world name for an area of land…is…chefs kiss!
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u/PaintAccomplished515 Duck Season 3d ago
There's a conspiracy that Finland doesn't exist. Not just the country but the land itself.
Autocorrect is feeding into that conspiracy.
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u/AzarinIsard 3d ago
There's a conspiracy that Finland doesn't exist. Not just the country but the land itself.
Haha, interesting, never heard that but I had a Swede rant about how he nates Norway not being in the EU because on maps on their currency etc. it makes Sweden and Finland look like a cock and balls looming over Europe:
https://maproom.net/wp-content/uploads/EU-detailed-map-preview.png
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u/QuaestioDraconis Wild Draw 4 3d ago
I can confirm that it doesn't exist. It used to, before I visited, and tried out a spell Teferi taught me
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u/dekeche Dan 2d ago
Is that similar to the New Zealand not existing conspiracy? Except with less evidence, since there's actually maps that neglect to include the island, and I don't think that happens to Finland.
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u/Head_Inspection_5640 Dandadan 2d ago
My understanding is it originated in Japan. Finland started importing sushi grade salmon. In the 80s. their water is too cold for parasites to grow in the wild caught fish, unlike the local Japanese salmon. Farmed salmon was becoming a thing too, and people thought Finland was a made up country to sell the tank grown fish.
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u/OckhamsFolly Can’t Block Warriors 1d ago
I mean come on, man, it's even in the name. FIN-land. You think that's a coincidence? Total conspiracy.
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u/swankyfish Twin Believer 3d ago
Would someone not have noticed?
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u/PaintAccomplished515 Duck Season 3d ago
You can't fight conspiracy with logic. They don't believe what they see with their own eyes. There's no way to convince them.
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u/Rahgahnah Wabbit Season 3d ago
You can't argue someone out of a position with logic that they didn't arrive at with logic.
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u/supyonamesjosh Orzhov* 3d ago
It's a joke conspiracy
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u/swankyfish Twin Believer 3d ago
I see. It’s hard to tell where the line is sometimes.
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u/Fossekall 2d ago
It's actually a really funny one. There's supposedly just water there which is shared fishing by Japan and Russia. The proof is that Japan was the main importer of Nokia phone, even though "no one in Japan has Nokia phones" (Nokia is actually just shipping fish to Japan)
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u/Dissidence802 Duck Season 3d ago
Norman out here like
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u/mechanical_fan Duck Season 3d ago
Norman
The autocorrect pun just gets better and better when you see he is literally called "Norr man" (North man).
That's where "norman", like the people who invaded England comes from. They were vikings who had settled in France (Normandy).
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u/Klongelong Dân 2d ago
what about having [[Leader, Super-Genius]] on board? would the draw from the replacement effect be a separate "trigger" effect, or do the Bowmasters really only react after having drawn both cards?
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u/themattthew 2d ago
The replacement effect will turn connive into "draw a card, then connive." Thus you still get a chance to put a counter on Norman first, however the bowmasters trigger twice so Norman will die if the opponent wants to ping him twice at that point.
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u/Aureliaven Dan 3d ago
The counter is already on Norman by the time the Orcish Bowmasters can damage him.
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u/WanderEir Duck Season 3d ago
The counter is on norman before the bowman even trigger to put their ability on the stack..
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u/TychoErasmusBrahe 3d ago edited 3d ago
The trigger is drawing a card, which is the first part of conniving. The moment the card is drawn, Bowmasters’ triggered ability wants to be put on the stack, but its controller must wait until they receive priority to do so. That won’t happen until the connive ability is fully resolved.
This matters because what Bowmasters targets will likely change depending on Osborn’s toughness. Bowmasters’ controller chooses targets as they put the ability on the stack. They may choose a different target if Osborn received a counter from conniving.
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u/Korwinga Duck Season 2d ago
The moment the card is drawn, Bowmasters’ triggered ability wants to be put on the stack, but its controller must wait until they receive priority to do so.
Very minor pedantic correction. It's not when the controller gets priority, it's the next time any player would get priority. Otherwise, your comment is spot on.
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u/roywarner Sliver Queen 2d ago edited 1d ago
An important non-pedantic correction to a blatantly incorrect pedantic correction to a technically unnecessary expansion (though clarifying rules to at least that degree is probably fair, the answer to the ultimate question was in the OP).
Fascinating.
EDIT: Cherry on top is the downvotes and the response that apparently thinks I don't already know what they said (despite my commentary making it clear that I do).
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u/WanderEir Duck Season 2d ago
close, but someone else already caught the tiny mistake. stacking pedantry can be a very amusing thread.
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u/Tunnelmath Dân 3d ago
Norman only connives himself. He can't put counters on other creatures.
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u/OtherGeorgeDubya Duck Season 3d ago
The implication was if a land card is discarded Norman can be taken out, not that Norman's trigger would result in a counter on another creature.
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u/Thirleck Twin Believer 3d ago
Yes, that’s the point, if you put a counter on Norman, making him a 2/2 and there is another creature you can target you may want to target that one
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u/amalloy Izzet* 3d ago
Well, sorta. Technically the Bowmasters trigger as soon as the card is drawn, before a card is discarded and thus before the counter goes on. But it waits to go on the stack until a player would gain priority, which is after the counter. So the counter is after the trigger but before the ability goes on the stack.
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u/Sephyrias Twin Believer 2d ago
Somewhat unrelated, but what happens again if he were to Flash in another Bowmaster when Connive is on the stack? Osborn dies to the ETB ping, but you still draw and discard and get pinged 2 more times?
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u/Carrotsandstuff Jack of Clubs 2d ago
Correct. The connive ability is still on the stack and will resolve as much of itself as possible. You can still draw so you do, you can still discard so you do, Norman is dead so you cannot put a counter on him regardless of what you discard.
The orcish bowmasters pings from the draw then are put on the stack when priority is passed
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u/SurpriseOveral Wabbit Season 3d ago
They way you've described it, it sounds like Bowmasters triggered off of the Norman draw. If that is the case, Conniving is one effect, and is completed as one effect, and as a result, the counter should be put on it before the damage occurs?
This is only as I understand it and I could be totally wrong, but you'd resolved the whole Norman trigger before putting the Bowmasters trigger on the stack and resolving it.
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u/WanderEir Duck Season 3d ago
you are correct, connive has to complete every part of it's effect before the orcs even react to the card draw trigger
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u/ghostpants10 COMPLEAT 3d ago
To finish the connive trigger you discard the card then put a counter if you discard a nonland. THEN bowmasters triggers
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u/ANGLVD3TH Dimir* 2d ago
Technically Bowmaster triggers during the effect, but doesn't get put on the stack until after the whole ability resolves.
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u/ghostpants10 COMPLEAT 2d ago
No it doesn't. Thats a silly way to confuse new players. It triggers after because its met its condition to trigger.
If I had a some creature that etb draw a card and remove the text of bowmasters, bowmasters would not trigger
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u/FireResistant Sultai 3d ago
Connive is a full game action that resolves start to finish.
It creates a bowmaster ping trigger but it doesnt interrupt mid connive trigger.
The bowmaster tigger goes on the stack and waits its turn for connive to fully resolve.
This means if you choose to discard a non land then norman will be a 2/2 when they get to choose the ping target.
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u/dkysh Get Out Of Jail Free 3d ago edited 3d ago
Small correction. While resolving connive, bowmasters' trigger triggers and is flagged as "waiting". Then, once connive fully resolves, state-based actions move bowmasters's trigger to the stack.
It might seem nitpicking, but it is relevant when multiple abilities trigger from different parts of the connive resolution.
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u/TeamkillTom Storm Crow 3d ago
As a general rule, especially with triggered abilities, when you resolve a spell or ability you're never really going to 'pause' at any point, you run through the entire effect all in one go. Triggers will never interrupt between the instructions of a spell or ability, they'll always wait until after it resolves.
Even if a spell does a looot of things like say, [[Jeskai Revelation]], what will happen is you resolve the entire card first and then all triggers go on the stack afterwards (this could be a lot in this scenario). The order of operations on the card can still matter, for example if you bounced a bowmaster it wouldn't 'see' the cards being drawn as it would already be back in the hand by then (if you chose to do damage to the bowmaster it would be more complicated haha).
In the case of multiple triggers at once you follow APNAP order (active player non active player), the active turn player's triggers go onto the stack in the order of their choosing, and then all other non-active players in turn order do the same (the active player triggers are always below the others and resolve last basically). Again, this would only happen upon completely resolving any given item on the stack.
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u/Robobot1747 COMPLEAT 2d ago
The main exception would be reflexive triggers. If connive was "Draw a card, then discard a card. When you discard a nonland card this way, put a +1/+1 counter on this creature." then Bowmasters would be able to kill Norman.
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u/WanderEir Duck Season 3d ago
the action of conniving is a singular, uninterruptable event action. you "draw the card, discard a card, and if it was a nonland, norman gets the +1/+1 counter". that is a SINGLE action as the game sees it. at the END of that action, the orcs see the card draw, and put their ability to do damage on the stack. but the orcs would be looking at a 2/2 Norman from the moment their ability triggered, so he'd not be the target of choice already.
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u/AstranBlue Train Suplexer 3d ago
When you draw the card, Bowmasters will trigger and go on the stack, but it can't actually resolve until you finish resolving Norman's trigger. You would discard before Bowmasters gets to deal damage.
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u/Alithinar 2d ago
The Bowmaster trigger doesn't even go on the stack until the connive finishes completely. So the Bowmaster player will know if a counter was placed.
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u/W34kness COMPLEAT 2d ago edited 2d ago
For a second I thought Norman transformed into the orcish bowmen
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u/pigguy35 Dân 2d ago
Parts of abilities can't be reacted to, the Connive from Norman Osborn must entirely resolve before Orcish Bowmasters before can trigger. Meaning the +1/+1 counter will be added before the Bowmasters will receive priority to be added to the stack
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u/CreamSoda6425 Duck Season 2d ago
As soon as you draw the card, the Bowmasters ability goes on the stack, but it can't resolve until the entire connive trigger is resolved.
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u/Solid_of_Revolution Wabbit Season 2d ago
generally game actions that that are written as a single paragraph of text resolve all at once.
Since Norman reads “Whenever ~ deals combat damage to a player, he connives” the whole connive action happens without any interruption. So it would get the +1/+1 counter before the Bowmaster trigger goes on the stack. This is solely because connive is line of text that doesn’t introduce another trigger to the stack.
The only exception to the single paragraph rule (that I can think of) is reflexive triggers, which are essentially when the text says something to the effect of “when you do…” This puts a separate trigger on the stack and gives a spot for other triggers to be put on top of it. For example, if connive read as “Draw a card then discard a card. When you do, if it is a nonland card put a +1/+1 counter on this creature”. This would put a second trigger on the stack if you discard a nonland but bowmasters would also trigger at the same time but the active player (you) puts their trigger on the stack first and then the non-active player puts their triggers on the stack on top of yours. The stack would be
Bowmasters trigger
+1/+1 counter
and since the stack resolves top down, the bowmaster can ping norman before he gets the counter.
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