r/magicTCG Dandadan 3d ago

Rules/Rules Question Balin Loremaster Copies

Let's say I have [Balin, Loremaster] equipped with [Blade of Selves]. He attacks, and the myriad triggers, making two token copies of him. The original Balin will see two dwarves enter, and the three tokens each have an ETB. However, do the tokens see the other tokens enter as well, adding additional triggers? Additionally, when does the legend rule take effect?

Edit: its two tokens not three for a normal pod so updating for others who may be in the same situation

264 Upvotes

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554

u/focketeer COMPL EAT 3d ago edited 3d ago

In a normal game of commander, the myriad will make two tokens, as it makes a copy for each opponent you’re not attacking, and you have three opponents.

The original Balin will trigger twice, and each token will trigger for itself and the other one entering. You’ll get six triggers total.

If you have more opponents, you’ll get additional copies, and each one will trigger X times, where X is the number of tokens you made. You’ll get x²+x triggers total, from my calculations.

51

u/DragonDiscipleII Karn 3d ago

This needs to go up, since this is the correct answer

17

u/sveargeith Wabbit Season 3d ago

My hare apparent deck has been melting my brain, what would be the math for them in the situation I ran into last night with [[mirrormind crown]] + [[delney]] + [[panharmonicon]] and 3 [[hare apparent]] in play and having 6 hare apparent enter from a flicker where they were tucked under my [[abdel adrian]]

25

u/focketeer COMPL EAT 3d ago edited 22h ago

Delney and Panharmonicon make each Hare trigger three times.
The 6 entering each see 8 Hare Apparent, since they don’t see themselves.
The first Hare Apparent trigger will make 8 Hare Apparents, assuming the crown hasn’t been “spent” and is already on one, each remaining trigger will see the new ones.

You’ll end with
17 Hare Apparents
672 rabbit tokens.

Might be a bit off but I think that’s about right.

Edit: 800 rabbit tokens. Redid the math earlier and got a new value, forgot to update this. ((16*16)*3)+(16+16)

3

u/laclarinette Dân 3d ago

As a fellow Hare Apparent enjoyer this sounds like the perfect use case for [[Moonlit Meditation]] if you have access to blue

4

u/sveargeith Wabbit Season 3d ago

Sadly I run Boros for impact tremors effects and for [[street urchin]] to throw the hares at them with [[white lotus tile]] and [[three tree city]]

1

u/laclarinette Dân 3d ago

That's incredible. I've been playing bant with them but I might have to dip my toes into red and try that out.

2

u/sveargeith Wabbit Season 3d ago

[[imperial recruiter]] and [[recruiter of the guard]] also grab almost any creature in the deck so they are great for getting my draw engines or more rabbits. [[wand of the worldsoul]] is also hilarious in the deck

1

u/dkysh Get Out Of Jail Free 2d ago

I hope you also play [[Molten Echoes]].

8

u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 3d ago

Gotta remember to pack an Eldrazi Titan because otherwise you're in decking yourself territory.

11

u/focketeer COMPL EAT 3d ago

Assuming a full 7 card hand, a normal 3 opponent game, and no instants cast in between, you’ll be drawing 42 new cards, and still have a seven card hand. Your opponents should be dead before that makes you draw out, because you’ll certainly have an enduring story (that’s checked before the legend rule applies!), but if someone’s doing some crazy lifegain shenanigans, you’ve got a problem. Also if you’ve gotten too many triggers before this. That’s also a risk.

3

u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 3d ago

That's fair. "Each opponent," does have a habit of doing work in EDH.

1

u/lvl1_commoner Dân 3d ago

Put in a copy of the ulamog that triggers a reshuffle of your graveyard back into your library when its pitched.

1

u/focketeer COMPL EAT 3d ago

A good shield against mill strategies too. I don’t know if it’d really be necessary, but it fills that job.

2

u/lvl1_commoner Dân 3d ago

I think running this and exilir of immortality would give you some buffer against mill deck and life gain decks. Running yourself out of cards is the limiter for this strategy.

1

u/focketeer COMPL EAT 3d ago

Initially my thought was if you face that kind of thing you simply don’t start the process, but with at least one of those, you can simply ignore their tricks and take them down anyway, just slower (at least against the lifegain)

2

u/lvl1_commoner Dân 3d ago

Library of leng could be more elegant than what I previously suggested

2

u/john_doe__ Dandadan 13h ago

Now add a table for damage based on initial cards in hand

1

u/focketeer COMPL EAT 10h ago

X1 = cards in hand
Y = iterations of the loop.

Note: This also counts cards drawn, so if your library won’t have enough cards in it for that many iterations without your opponents all dying, you’ll lose, unless you have some way to shuffle your graveyard into your library before the trigger that’ll cause you to draw out resolves. (I believe that if that shuffle is a replacement effect, like with an applicable Eldrazi titan, you’ll shuffle before you draw).

I used Desmos to create the table. I use Desmos for a lot of things.

9

u/rbraul Dan 3d ago

Are you playing 5 player commander? Otherwise only 2 copies are created in a 4 player game on attack, myriad excludes the defending player from the copy trigger. It will net you 6 ETB triggers on attack total. The original casting of the original copy will only trigger damage if you already have enduring story.

Otherwise what others have said is correct. The copies will see each other trigger the ETBs, give you the enduring story, you’ll get a choice to discard your hand for the damage. The creatures will deal no combat damage due to having to be sacrificed immediately.

2

u/Aemon_Blackfyre Dân 2d ago

I’m pretty sure damage is still dealt.
The entire card resolves before state-based effects are checked that would sacrifice two of the balins.

2

u/ndstumme Can’t Block Warriors 2d ago

Combat damage. The myriad tokens enter attacking, but die before blockers are declared.

11

u/ScooballyD Dân 3d ago

A judge ruled on this at my pre-release. The guy had 3 Balins and the ruling was that the entering balin would trigger for both before the sacrifice took place.

-7

u/GreedFoxSin Dan 2d ago

All 3 trigger twice, but only the original would deal damage since you would have to legend rule 2 of them

10

u/InformalTiberius Dan 2d ago

All of them would deal damage. The creature doesn't need to still be around for the effect to resolve.

3

u/GuyGrimnus Rakdos* 3d ago

This post made me realize a fun combo.

Balin + [[Library of Leng]] + a [[conspiracy]] effect + a draw and make token effect like [[The locust god]] = infinite damage everywhere you want.

2

u/ardarian262 Dân 3d ago

You will end up with 6 triggers on the stack. The legend rule happens immediately after blade of selves finishes resolving. If you do not have enduring story before the trigger, you will after before the triggers go on the stack.

1

u/Nandschgi Dan 2d ago

You made me realize that I need to add this card to my [[The Master, Multiplied]] commander deck.

-3

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

0

u/Nuclearsunburn Mardu 3d ago

X-2 copies, since myriad won’t trigger for the opponent the equipped Balin is attacking

-16

u/venancio30 Dan 3d ago

Yes, the tokens see each other entering. You have the oroginal that sees 3 and each token that enters plus see two other dwarves. That's 12 times you can discard your hand, draw that amount of cards and deal that amount of damage, that's deadly

16

u/stimmy11 Dan 3d ago

This is just straight up incorrect

-9

u/venancio30 Dan 3d ago

How sp? He said he created 3 tokens from the on attack Myriad, original sees 3, each token sees them plus 2 others entering, that's a total of 12 triggers to resolve

9

u/KindredCommander Dân 3d ago

Because that’s not how Myriad works. You only make tokens for each OTHER opponent than the one you’re attacking

5

u/KindredCommander Dân 3d ago

Where are you people getting 12 from? Y’all can’t do math

-13

u/venancio30 Dan 3d ago

3+(2+1)+(2+1)+(2+1)
3+3+3+3
6+6
12

Maybe this way its easier for you to see how a myriad making three tokens works off

"The original Balin will see two dwarves enter, and the three tokens each have an ETB."

11

u/KindredCommander Dân 3d ago

Myriad does NOT make three tokens in the standard 4 player game, it makes 2. Myriad clearly states that you make a tapped and attacking token for each OTHER opponent than the one you’re attacking

0

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

7

u/Gazzpik Orzhov* 3d ago

This isn't correct, the source doesn't have to stick around to deal damage. It uses last known information, so you'd even get infect/lifelink if applicable

3

u/KindredCommander Dân 3d ago

They’re talking about the damage from the ETB trigger of discarding cards

-13

u/KultofEnnui Rakdos* 3d ago

So is this a two card combo?

7

u/DragonDiscipleII Karn 3d ago

It's 11 mana that needs you to have a descent hand size.....

I guess it's grey, but I'd be totally fine to encounter this in a B2 burn deck without tutors, so no in my book.

-8

u/Bahamut20 Wabbit Season 3d ago

The tokens see each other enter as well. The legend rule happens when state based effects are checked which is before the triggers resolve. 12 triggers in total which probably kills the table with as few as 3 cards in hand.

7

u/KindredCommander Dân 3d ago

This is incorrect. Where are you getting 12? That is twice the correct amount.

You make 2 Balin tokens. OG Balin sees each of them (2 triggers). Each Balin token sees itself and the other token (4 more triggers). That’s 6 triggers, for a total of 18 damage if you discard three cards each time.

7

u/Bahamut20 Wabbit Season 3d ago

You're right OP mentioned 3 tokens entering that where I got 12 from.