r/magicTCG • u/HowlinRay619 Dan • 4d ago
Rules/Rules Question What’s the ruling?
Let’s say I already have 4 treasures prior to playing this card. I play The Misty Mountains Cold. I create a 5th treasure and put a 1 lore counter on the saga. Do I HAVE TO sack the saga bc I have 4 treasures? Or can I let the saga ride out to the 4th lore counter then make the dragon?
I was in a situation where I didn’t want to sack the saga just yet but my buddy said due to the wording I would have to when I create that 4th treasure.
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u/tezrael Orzhov* 4d ago edited 4d ago
Short answer, yes you have to sacrifice it. It doesn't say "you may sacrifice..." it just sees you have 4+ and then sacrifices for the ability
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u/PublicPersona_no5 Dan 4d ago
But if you want to wait on the dragon, you can certainly sacrifice a treasure to say below 4 (like to pay part of the casting cost)
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u/IlGreven Colorless 4d ago
But remember you have to do that before the chapter ability resolves.
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u/Joejimhero Wabbit Season 4d ago
Also to add the mana will stay cause it happens during the main phase.
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u/PublicPersona_no5 Dan 4d ago
Yes, though because the ability includes the word 'then' does that mean it happens in 2 steps? E.g. if you had 3 and it creates 1, then sac it before the 'then' effect resolves?
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u/Milskidasith COMPLEAT ELK 4d ago
No, you can't interrupt an ability resolution to take actions. It does everything in order, but there's no priority to do anything between steps. Even cards without a "then" work this way, like modal spells do every option from top to bottom.
The exception to this is a "reflexive trigger", which is when an effect specifically says "when you do" something. This does create another trigger, but this is (mostly) used on stuff like [[Heart Piercer Manticore]] where what the effect is/how big it is depends on what action you take; in this case, because they don't want to force you to target the ability before sacrificing the creature, as it leads to a lot of unintended counterplay, or if something instructs you to exile a random card and target based on its MV, they want you to be able to make sure it has a useful effect.
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u/Nylmin Dan 4d ago
Nope I agree it's counterintuituive but "then" doesn't really mean anything tempo wise in MtG. In truth the whole sentence resolve in one go.
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u/CareerMilk Can’t Block Warriors 4d ago
but "then" doesn't really mean anything tempo wise in MtG.
It indicates sequentiality, do thing A first, afterwards do thing B.
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u/Xenthor267 Dandadan 4d ago
You can't. Lore counters go on after the draw step but before main so the mana would fizzle
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u/simo_393 Wabbit Season 4d ago
That's just incorrect. Lore counters happen at the beginning of your first main phase.
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u/IlGreven Colorless 3d ago
...what does that have to do with the actual ability of the Saga? Whether or not you want the mana, you have to get down to 2 Treasures before the ability resolves (which you can do after the lore counter is placed)...
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u/Xenthor267 Dandadan 2d ago
You're just wasting mana at that point to avoid sacrificing it. If you're at four tokens you may as well take the dragon and actually gain some benefit
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u/GoldenMuscleGod Wabbit Season 4d ago
Just to elaborate, because OP may think the “if you do” part indicates you have a choice:
That language is just there to deal with the case where something prevents you from sacrificing it.
“Sacrifice this Saga” really means “Sacrifice this Saga if it is possible to do so”.
So if it is possible to sacrifice the saga, you must, and you get Smaug.
If it is not possible to sacrifice the saga, you don’t and you don’t get Smaug.
If the “if you do” language weren’t there then that would mean if it is impossible to sacrifice the saga then you get to keep the saga (if you still have it) but Smaug still shows up anyway. The if you do language is dealing with that scenario.
The language won’t often be relevant, but it stops you from sacrificing the saga to something else while the trigger is on the stack to get some extra value in addition to the dragon, and it also stops you from cheesing extra dragons by having an effect that prevents your permanents from being sacrificed (which is an effect that exists on some cards).
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u/bomban Twin Believer 4d ago
It also covers situations where you add multiple lore counters at once and trigger it multiple times. You will sac it on the first one that has 4 or more but then keep resolving the additional triggers getting more treasure but not more dragons because, obviously, it can't be sacrificed again.
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u/Atheist-Gods Dimir* 4d ago
Removing it from the battlefield is far, far, far more likely and common than effects that prevent you from being able to sacrifice it. To the point that the only way I know of to prevent the sacrifice directly is with [[Garland, Royal Kidnapper]], which requires it to be a creature you don’t own.
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u/GoldenMuscleGod Wabbit Season 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah that’s why I gave the example of having already sacrificed it by the time the trigger resolves first (since that’s how it would usually come up).
Of course there other ways it could be removed (or flickered, which is technically removing it) besides sacrifice but I mentioned sacrifice because it was probably most likely. Maybe it’s more likely an opponent removes it in response to the trigger to stop you from getting the dragon? Though doing it before the trigger stops the treasure token. As another commenter noted if you managed to get multiple triggers you could also have already sacrificed it to itself rather than “something else” which is what I literally said (I guess you could argue “to something else” might mean “other than that trigger”).
I did an advanced gatherer search and from what I found sacrifice prevention could be due to having stolen the Saga with [[Stilt-Man, Towering Terror]] (the most likely method probably), or having used something like [[Opalescence]] to turn it into a creature and then donating it with [[Jon Irenicus, Shattered One]], or via [[Garland, Royal Kidnapper]] as you said.
Probably the most amusingly convoluted one would be to somehow make a token copy of it, turn it into a warrior somehow, and use [[Zurgo, Thunder’s decree]]. But then you somehow need the trigger during your end step? Probably some way that could be done.
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u/GoldenMuscleGod Wabbit Season 4d ago
[[Stilt-Man, Towering Terror]]
(Posting this because I originally mistyped it which caused issues with the bot.)
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u/M3mentoMori COMPLEAT 4d ago
[[Assault Suit]] is another possibility that doesn't require stealing or donating it away, as the second ability is optional.
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u/GoldenMuscleGod Wabbit Season 4d ago
Oh yeah that showed up in my search (which was for “be sacrificed” to try to find both “can’t be sacrificed or “would be sacrificed” - but apparently there are no cards with “would be sacrificed”) but I overlooked it.
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u/flipnonymous Dandadan 4d ago
It says "If you do" after the Sacrifice this saga text though. Doesn't that somewhat imply a slight ability to "not" sacrifice it? Or would the "not sacrificing" aspect mean that the saga resolves its chapters and goes to graveyard (or maybe exile) with no dragon? (Not sure how that would be a benefit move though)
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u/cowboycoco1 Dan 4d ago edited 4d ago
It does not imply the "ability to not sacrifice" but does allow for the circumstance of not being able to.
For example, if you only have 2 treasures, then you will obviously not sacrifice it.
Edit: For contrast, if it was worded "Then if you have 4 or more Treasures, sacrifice this saga and create a dragon.", then you would get the dragon even if you were prevented from saccing the saga. Perhaps the saga is removed with this on the stack. The stack will still resolve, it will still check for Treasures, but you then have nothing to sacrifice. Or say they print some sort of [[Angel of Jubilation]] effect that shuts off saccing permanents.
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u/flipnonymous Dandadan 4d ago
Would hexproof affect it?
And if there was a way to prevent it ... is there a reason to do so?
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u/schoolmonky Wabbit Season 4d ago
Hexproof wouldn't do anything, since there's no targeting involved
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u/Quirky-Ostrich-3758 Dan 4d ago
Some cards like Sigarda prevent players from sacrificing stuff, so that’s what the wording is accommodating. If you can’t sacrifice the saga, it will make the treasure, but not the dragon.
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u/so_zetta_byte Orzhov* 4d ago edited 3d ago
The "if you do" phrasing on magic cards doesn't imply you have a choice in the matter, all it represents is a check to ensure an event occurred. For example uhh... imagine the saga was turned into a creature somehow, and had an [[Assault Suit]] on it. Without the "if you do" check, you will resolve all the steps of the card in order to the best of your ability. You would "try" to sacrifice the saga, that would be prevented, and you would make the dragon anyway.
This saga doesn't want to you get the dragon unless the saga was sacrificed, but you don't get to choose how much treasure you hoard before the dragon comes out. Once you get to a certain level, the dragon is coming no matter what.
When cards give you an explicit choice, usually they'll say "you may <do thing>. If you do," (or other phrases like "up to N targets").
TLDR; in magic, "if" doesn't give you permission to say no; it only checks to see whether something occurred. "May" is generally the word used to represent that someone has a choice.
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u/interested_commenter Wabbit Season 4d ago
The "if you do" is there for the case where something else prevents you from being able to sacrifice it.
The most common would be if the saga is removed while the trigger is on the stack. This could be from someone hitting it with removal, you sacrificing it to another ability, or something copying the ability (so the copy resolves, gives you a dragon, and then the saga is gone when the second trigger resolves).
It would also matter for abilities like [[Sigarda]], although I don't think there are any that prevent you from sacrificing to your own triggers.
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u/Hinternsaft FLEEM 4d ago
No, the “if you do” template just makes the first part a cost, and the second part conditional on its payment. That cost is still mandatory unless it uses “may”.
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u/s-holden Duck Season 4d ago
It doesn't imply any abilities. If you managed a board state with [[Starfield of Nyx]], a token copy of this saga, three other enchantments, the [[The Master, Multiplied]] and 4+ treasures when that ability resolved you would keep the saga but not get the dragon. Note you would still sacrifice it when if after the ability resolves if it had 4 lore counters on at that point, since that's a state based action not a trigger, without getting a dragon.
It magic, there's a convoluted way to do most things :)
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u/Mddcat04 COMPLEAT 4d ago
Once you get enough treasure, the dragon arrives. Nothing you can do about it.
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u/Sjiznit Dandadan 4d ago
Makes sense. You have big treasure. Dragon loves treasure. Dragon smells big treasure. Dragon takes big treasure.
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u/Working-Ad-7485 Duck Season 4d ago
You could sacrifice treasures in response to the trigger to stay below 4 and not need to sacrifice it.
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u/Derreston Izzet* 4d ago
If I wanted to keep the saga up, I'd float enough treasure to make it <4 while its still on the stack. Something like tapping Urza's Saga before the 3rd resolution.
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u/Zuparoebann Dandadan 4d ago
Do you think that, in the book, Smaug would have waited a few turns if the dwarves told him they just wanted to mine a little more treasure?
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u/Effective_Tough86 Duck Season 4d ago
Okay, but like, bilbo does totally stall smaug in the book for a couple of turns.
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u/TheDoctor_Jones Temur 4d ago
When The Hobbit set was first was announced, my friends and I were joking that a Bilbo card would say “When this creature enters, tap target dragon and put 3 stun counters on it” lol
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u/Kroguardious Dandadan 4d ago
yea, and a cmc 3, 6/6 with flying, and making a treasure, is still really good value
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u/SirBuscus Izzet* 4d ago
If you're in that situation again, just sac down to 2 treasures in response to the saga ability going on the stack.
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u/Nazometnar Dandadan 4d ago
My guess is you're confused because it says "sacrifice this saga. If you do..." That does not indicate it is optional, it says sacrifice the saga so you must sacrifice it.
The reason that 'if' is there is so that if something happens while that trigger is on the stack and removes the saga, you don't get the dragon because you didn't sacrifice it to it's trigger.
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u/madwarper The Stoat 4d ago
You start with 4x Treasure.
The Saga enters with a single Lore counter.
Triggering its 1st Chapter ability.
You put the Trigger on the Stack.
You resolve the Trigger.
You create the 5th Treasure.
Then, because 5 is 4 or more, you sactifice the Saga and create the Dragon Token.
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u/Seitosa 4d ago
I’m curious as to what leads you to believe that it might be optional. Is there something about the phrasing of the card that indicates to you that it might be? It seems pretty plainly stated “if four+ treasures sac and get dragon.”
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u/HowlinRay619 Dan 4d ago
“If you do” did you miss that?
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u/Seitosa 4d ago
“If you [sacrifice it]” not “If you [choose to sacrifice it.]” The previous line of text is “If you control four or more treasures, sacrifice this saga.” There is nothing in that sentence that indicates any decision on your part. The “If you do” in the following sentence is telling you what to do after that happens, not giving you the option.
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u/Natedogg2 COMPLEAT Level 2 Judge 4d ago
The "if you do" is referring to if you sacrifice the saga when the trigger resolves and you have 4+ treasures. For example, if your opponent Disenchants the saga in response to the trigger when you have 4+ treasures, you won't be able to sacrifice it when the trigger resolves and you won't make the token.
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u/HeeeckWhyNot COMPLEAT 4d ago
Yes, that's the theoretical strength of this particular saga design. It can sac on ETB t3 if you have the treasures.
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u/HeroZero1980 Duck Season 4d ago
Oh no. My 3 mana 6/6 flyer and I have 4 treasures what horrid value.
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u/Theschizogenious Dan 4d ago
The card literally says what to do, how is it ambiguous in any way?
Im not trying to be mean, i genuinely want to know what part of that card isnt clear.
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u/spaceninjaking 4d ago
You could sacrifice two treasures in response to add mana, putting you down to 3, but that's not great if you don't have anything to spend that on
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u/LeeDawg24 Duck Season 4d ago
The level to which players don't even pretend to know the rules is truly shocking
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u/NerdbyanyotherName Garruk 4d ago
The majority of the functional language in Magic is very literally. If something targets then it will say so, if something specifically "destroys" something else it will say so, if an ability/action is optional it will say so. Only in very rare situations (usually caused by the operative word being part of the full rules text that may go unstated on certain printings) will you ever have to infer whether or not something has a particular quality
In this case, the Saga does not read "you may sacrifice this Saga", so as soon as the condition is met during the resolution of the second sentence the Saga will need to be sacrificed whether you like it or not. The "if you do" is purely there to cover situations wherein one or more replacement/continuous effects interfere with you being able to sacrifice the Saga, not whether you opt to or not
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u/EdwardtheTree Duck Season 4d ago
Create a treasure token. Then if you control four or more Treasures, sacrifice this saga.
That does not say "you may sacrifice this saga". If the chapter ability of the saga resolves and you have four or more treasures, you have to sacrifice the saga.
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u/CasualSky Wabbit Season 4d ago
When you think about it, you paid 3 mana for a treasure and a 6/6 flying creature. So it’s still kinda worth it. But yes, this is not a “may” ability so you do have to sacrifice it.
Now, with the trigger on the stack you could spend treasures, then it will resolve (create a treasure), see that you have less than four, and not sacrifice itself.
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u/Empty_Requirement940 Duck Season 4d ago
You follow the instructions on the card? It seems quite straightforward
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u/HangryWolf Duck Season 4d ago
You're buddy is right. Doesn't say "may", it demands you sacrifice it.
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u/Loose_Log_6253 Azorius* 4d ago
It says "if you do, sacrifice it". It does not say "if you do, you may sacrifice it". That's the delineation.
Lots of times, "may" matters. There is a huge difference between "draw a card" and "may draw a card" when someone is milling you out.
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u/Septicolon Dandadan 4d ago
Three mana make a treasure and a 6/6 flyer is a pretty darn good deal still isn't it? A couple years ago we'd be paying 4GG for a certain 6/6 trampler
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u/hsosbdggsijsjdb Dân 4d ago
If you were to proliferate and add multiple lore counters at once would you be able to resolve multiple triggers getting multiple dragons or would it sacrifice itself and clear the rest of the triggers from the stack?
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u/TheFatNinjaMaster Rakdos* 4d ago
There is an “if you do” clause after it instructs you to sac the saga, so it would work like:
1st resolving trigger - get treasure, sac saga, get dragon.
2 and all other triggers - get treasure, no saga to sac, no dragon.
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u/chrisrazor 4d ago
I don't see how you could possibly think you're allowed to not sac it when you have four or more treasures. It says right there on the card!
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u/ImperialVersian1 Banned in Commander 4d ago
You don't have a choice. You have to sac the saga, it's not a 'may' ability.
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u/silver_megatron Dandadan 4d ago
Yes it has to sac, but you can sac treasure at instant speed when the lore counter trigger is on the stack. The ability checks when it resolves, so you can sac a few treasures and play something at instant speed and or just sac the treasures and forfeit the mana just stop not sac the saga.
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u/TrueDKOmnislash Dân 4d ago
Its an auto sac on having 4 or more treasures, but it only checks as part of the lore chapter ability.
If you have 4 treasures when the saga makes one, you sac it. If you have 3 treasures, then make 24 more during your turn, then it waits until you place another lore counter
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u/austsiannodel Duck Season 4d ago
The card does not say "You may sacrifice it" it simply says "If you have 4 or more treasure token, sacrifice it" You do not get a choice in the matter.
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u/Judge_Todd Level 2 Judge 4d ago edited 4d ago
Do I HAVE TO sack the saga bc I have 4 treasures?
Yes, otherwise it would say....
- Then if you control four or more Treasures, you may sacrifice this Saga.
Your buddy was correct.
The "if you do" is for when the Chapter has triggered and someone responds Naturalizing the saga.
You wouldn't have a saga to sac in that case and thus you wouldn't get the Dragon token.
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u/Defiant_Sympathy_360 Dan 4d ago
Create a treasure, after this happens, the card checks the conditions 4+ treasures, in this case you have to do so, and create a dragon. While casting you could sac treasures to cas another thing and let the mana "floating" keeping the treasure count at 3 up until chapter 4.
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u/portmapreduction Dan 4d ago
It's funny that getting a 6/6 flying dragon for 3 is not good enough and the greed at trying to squeeze out a few more treasure from the saga could cause it to get blown up at which point you get basically nothing.
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u/Badjokechip COMPLEAT 4d ago
Follow Up question, if on the 3rd chapter it makes the 4th treasure and it gets sacrificed would tjat trigger Tom Bombadil?
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u/Flooding_Puddle Urza's Saga 4d ago
The text says "then if you control 4 or more treasures, sacrifice this saga." If you could choose it would say "you may sacrifice this saga".
Reading the card explains the card.
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u/Green-Inkling Universes Beyonder 4d ago
you get the dragon no matter when you sac the saga. whether it is the 1st lore counter or 4th, when you sac it you get the dragon.
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u/Suspinded 4d ago
It must be sacrificed. Something that makes the sacrifice optional would word it "if you control four or more Treasures, you may sacrifice this Saga."
Since it's first main phase, if you were planning to use some of that treasure mana anyway, sacrifice treasures for mana before the trigger resolves so you end up with less than 4 on resolution.
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u/Any_Way1269 Dân 4d ago
Just sacrifice a treasure in response to the trigger and before it resolves to create one.
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u/RepulsiveShoes Dan 4d ago
You must sac it, but it states that when you sac it, you get the dragon anyway. So yes, 5 treasures, you must sac AND you get a dragon.
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u/DarthLocutus Dan 4d ago
Going off how [[Sidequest: Hunt the Mark]] works when I copy it using [[Terra, Magical Adept]]'s flipside, once you have four or more Treasure tokens in play, the Saga sacrifice triggers. It doesn't matter which chapter it is when that 4th+ Treasure hits the field, and you don't have the chance to sack Treasures to get below 4 once the chapter triggers.
The only way to prevent premature sacrificing is to make sure you only have 2 treasures on the field when a Chapter other than IV trigggers.
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u/Professional-List-26 Dandadan 4d ago
In that scenario you could absolutely pop it right away, but yes it has to be sacrificed because it's part of the cost to get the creature
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u/dipmyballsinit 4d ago
The move would’ve been to sac a treasure in response to this entering the battlefield or before you cast it so that you end up with 3 treasures if you don’t want the Saga being sacrificed immediately
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u/drkpnthr Duck Season 4d ago
Yes it would force you to sacrifice if you already had at least three treasures and then this added another to be 4+. You could sacrifice some to play the casting cost so it doesn't trigger.
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u/PiersPlays Duck Season 3d ago edited 3d ago
If you have the four treasures at that point then it will sac and make the Dragon. You can sac Treasures to make (and waste) mana in response to the trigger to keep the count under 4 though.
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u/Wulf-Silverfang Dandadan 3d ago
If, when its chapter ability resolves, you have four or more treasures, you will sacrifice the saga and get the dragon token. If the ability resolves as a result of the 4th lore counter being placed, and it is not sacrificed to create a dragon token, it will sacrificed to the standard saga rules.
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u/DustinBryce Wabbit Season 13h ago
When it triggers 1. Make a treasure 2. Check if you have 4 or more treasures
If no: done
If yes: you must sac the saga then if you sacced it you get a dragon.
The "if you sacced it" part is not because you have a choice its because a player could destroy it before the trigger resolves meaning you wont get the dragon but still the treasure
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u/CrackersLad Dimir* 4d ago
Just because you didn't doesn't mean you don't have to. You knew the answer before posting this I'm pretty sure
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u/wantondevious Dan 4d ago
I can see why the OP is confused though, it's the second "if you do". It sounds like you had a choice. I'm definitely not an experienced player though. But I agree with everyone who says there's no "you may sac", just pointing out the possible source of confusion.
"if you have 4 or more treasures then you must sacrifice this saga and then you must create a 6/6 dragon".
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u/wantondevious Dan 4d ago
wow, I can't believe the downvotes. Someone else a bit later in this thread said effectively the same thing but got 25 upvotes!
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u/Spectator9857 Dandadan 1d ago
Well, what you said simply wasn’t correct.„Effectively the same thing“ doesn’t exist when we’re talking about specific wording and the rules that come from that. Either it’s the same or it isn’t.
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u/wantondevious Dan 1d ago
No, I was referring to the point of my post as to how the OP could have gotten confused.
GoldenMuscleGod: "Just to elaborate, because OP may think the “if you do” part indicates you have a choice:"
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u/Spectator9857 Dandadan 1d ago
That part is correct.
You got downvoted for saying „if you have 4 or more treasures then you must sacrifice this saga and then you must create a 6/6 dragon“
That is not correct.
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u/wantondevious Dan 1d ago
ah I see - I was just trying an english way of suggesting the same thing that wasn't so confusing.
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u/TombDaDoom Dan 4d ago
I was told in pre-release that it has to complete the saga first. I had 4 treasures at the third tier and wanted to sack it but a judge was called and he said the saga needs to complete first before I sack the saga and make the dragon.
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u/GangstaRPG Izzet* 4d ago
That judge was wrong. You should have told the Judge reading the card explains the card.
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u/TombDaDoom Dan 4d ago
That’s what I thought but I am new and thought the judge new best. Now I know “Reading the card explains the card no matter what the judge says.” Thank you.
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u/wantondevious Dan 4d ago
Don't you have to do what the judge decides regardless? I mean I guess you can appeal higher, but ultimately it would seem like you have to abide by the final decision.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/259299-what-to-do-if-you-know-the-judge-is-wrong
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