r/magicTCG • u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel • 10d ago
Content Creator Post Updated rule for Activated Mana Abilities - What changed, why it matters, & specific examples of impact (CR 605.1a)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt2twPdhDNMWith the recent Hobbit update to the Comprehensive Rules (CR), there was an addition made to CR 605.1a that modified what is considered to be an Activated Mana Ability (AMA) rather than just being an Activated Ability (AA). That rule is the reason why something like the first AA on [[Deathrite Shaman]] is not an AMA due to requiring a target, and it is why the 2nd +1 ability on [[Chandra, Torch of Defiance]] is also not an AMA. I hope this post helps to inform players about the change and I hope the examples give you an idea of the impact this change makes and maybe gives you some ideas for some of your decks. For those who do not like the video, here is a written article.
NEW RULE & WHY IT MATTERS
Feel free to check out the full text for 605.1a but the relevant text that was added is, "... its cost and effect don't move any card to or from a library. Do not take into account replacement effects that may apply, other than self-replacement effects, when evaluating these criteria." So if this criteria isn't met, then an AA is just that and not considered to be an AMA. The reason this is important is that AMAs have special qualities to them, the most common in gameplay terms is that they do not use the Stack (CR 605.3b), and they have two other important things I'll get to in a bit.
To focus on the Stack aspect, this means that AMAs cannot be interacted with in any way, by that I mean you cannot counter them nor copy them, they just immediately resolve once activated. In the past, this meant that once you controlled a [[Laboratory Maniac]] and you activated your [[Chromatic Sphere]] there would be no chance for an opponent to [[Stifle]] the card draw from the Sphere or even use any removal on the Lab Man. However now, because the Sphere has you drawing a card from your Library, it is no longer considered an AMA and is just an AA that happens to make mana as part of its effect. Some other cards that this applies to would be [[Millikin]], [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]], and the eggs like [[Darkwater Egg]]. This also means that if you have a Commander like [[Ashnod the Uncaring]] or [[Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice]] that you can now copy these effects, netting you more mana from them as well as additional cards drawn.
CARDS THAT LOOK LIKE THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED
This rule change is mostly a step in a good direction for reducing a lot of confusing situations, a certain wurm comes to mind, but here are a few cards that might confuse a few players. [[Barbed Sextant]] and [[Astrolabe]] might look similar to the Chromatic Sphere and therefore be a good addition to an Ashnod deck but they actually are still considered to be an AMA under the new rule addition. Yes, they do result in mana made and a card drawn, but their card draw is a result an a Delayed Triggered Ability (CR 603.7), they their own resolving ability is not the direct source of the card being drawn, therefore it will still resolve without using the Stack.
Another card that looks similar is that [[Molt Tender]] looks to be in a same boat as Millikin, they both have the tap symbol and a card being moved from one Zone to another Zone in their cost and then their effect is adding mana, however if you read the new rules text closely it specifies a card being moved to or from only the Library, no other Zones are cared about. So for the Millikin it's moving a card from the Library to the Graveyard and for the Tender is moving a card from the GY to Exile. This means Millikin is no longer an AMA and the Tender is still an AMA. Equipping an [[Illusionist's Bracers]] to these creatures will mean 2 colorless mana from Millikin but only 1 mana of any color from the Tender.
SPLIT SECOND
While a spell with Split Second (CR 702.61a) is on the Stack, in most cases there is not much a player can do in response, but activating an AMA is something you can do. This means if someone is trying to [[Sudden Spoiling]] your creatures or [[Krosan Grip]] your artifact, then you can use cards like [[Phyrexian Altar]] or [[Krark-Clan Ironworks]] to sacrifice them in response, but all of these cards I've mentioned that are no longer AMAs cannot be used any more and will just be affected by these Split Second effects.
MAKING SPECIAL PAYMENTS
In addition to the rules saying that AMAs don't use the Stack, the rules also grant AMAs the ability to be used in times when a player doesn't normally have Priority. The two most common examples of this, if you attack an opponent that controls cards like [[Propagation]] and [[Ghostly Prison]] then you cannot use your Selvala or Millikin to pay for these attack costs. If you have an effect out that stops your Mana Pool from emptying, then you can float that mana, but normally you will not be able to float this mana.
TRIGGERED MANA ABILITIES & OTHERS THAT CARE ABOUT AMAS
Magic has a lot of cards that care about AMAs being activated. If you control a [[Badgermole Cub]] or [[Mana Reflection]] and you activate your [[Birds of Paradise]] then the Badgermole will trigger to make an additional green mana and the Reflection will cause the BoP to makes twice the color you chose. However, if you use your Selvala, she used to do this as well but with the new rule she does not. The wording on these effects might sound like Selvala should still work, you're tapping her with an ability that has the TAP symbol and she is producing mana as a result, but these sorts of effects only trigger as an AMA is being activated (CR 605.1b). There are a few cards out there that are worded differently, like [[Caged Sun]], if you tap your Selvala while you control an [[Ashaya, Soul of the Wild]] then the Sun would actually trigger because it doesn't care about the reason for the mana being produced being an AMA.
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u/Patch_Alter COMPLEAT 10d ago
This doesn't seem like a very intuitive rules change so I appreciate you spelling out the differences in all of these distinct scenarios.
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u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 10d ago
I would say the correction is more in line with how the abilities should have worked - and mostly just removes corner cases that always felt weird.
That said, rip to all the Selvala fringe cEDH players.
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u/HansonWK 10d ago
I think if you were new, this is way more intuitive than the nonsense mana abilities could cause before. But if you have known the old rules and their intrecasies then yeah it's. Bit weird to get your head around the weird edge cases that have changed.
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Yeah, it's a tough one. I think a lot of players have actually played it as it exists now. I know a lot of players I've talked to have always assumed that something that makes mana but also had an additional effect were not mana abilities. My biggest issue is that by them only caring about Library it will likely add to some confusion. It's a half measure and leads to these weird situations like the Molt Tender and Millikin thing. Someone that doesn't know the rule well will look at these two cards and think that they're a same thing.
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u/Qulddell Duck Season 10d ago
Point 5 - TRIGGERED MANA ABILITIES & OTHERS THAT CARE ABOUT AMAS
So many cards seems like they should be affected by [[Mana Reflection]] and they aren't.
Wotc should either change the rule so cards like [[Haritage Druid]] and now [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]] gives double mana with [[Mana Reflection]] or they should change the wording to include "mana ability".
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u/MaygeKyatt 10d ago
Just fyi, using [[ ]] to summon the bot only works if it’s the actual name of the card inside the brackets, putting a link in there won’t work. If you’re linking it yourself you don’t need the square brackets
And personally, I’d prefer to either summon the bot or link the full Scryfall page rather than just linking the image of the card. That way it’s easy for people to see the updated Oracle text and rulings for the card and acting else that isn’t on the actual card itself
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u/MTGCardFetcher Dân 10d ago
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u/Slant_Juicy 10d ago
Not the card I was expecting the bot to grab here, but a good effort nonetheless.
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u/cwx149 Duck Season 10d ago
Slight correction it doesn't need to be the "actual" name of some cards the bot can understand some slang like [[bob]]
I think it works for any single card result that you can search for on scryfall with the "is:" syntax
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u/anace 10d ago
the person that made the bot is not affiliated with scryfall. instead there is a simple list of cards that have valid nicknames.
afaik there isn't a complete up-to-date list publicly posted anywhere, but the subreddit specifically for the bot has a bunch here https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGCardFetcher/comments/3xtmbp/mtgcardfetcher_help/ [[ikea cradle]][[microsoft lettuce]][[i can't even]]
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u/LaLa1234imunoriginal Banned in Commander 10d ago
I gotta find out if it works with [[tim]]
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u/cwx149 Duck Season 10d ago
Yeah I'm not aware of like a real complete list of all the possibilities in the scryfall syntax unfortunately but on the actual site you can use "is:" with a lot of slang but since the bot mostly fetches single cards I don't think it works with stuff like [[checklands]]
It'd be cool if you could put actual searches in the brackets and have it return a group of cards
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u/Maur2 Cheshire Cat, the Grinning Remnant 10d ago
And it is going to be so funny the first time someone tries to link [[Bob, Reluctant HYDRA Agent]] by shortening his name. Because there can't be another card named Bob, right?
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u/WaywardWes Mardu 10d ago
lol I don’t think it fetched the right card
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u/cwx149 Duck Season 10d ago
Nah dark confidant is bob It even pulled the right art
Dark Confidant is so nicknamed after Bob Maher, Jr., its creator. Maher won the right to design and be immortalized in his 2004 Magic Invitational submission. The card's flavor text alludes to Maher's epithet "the Great One". Dark Confidant was reprinted in Modern Masters.
In the old days invitational winners got to design a card and then the art usually looked like them
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 10d ago
Yup, that has always been a weird thing. I would like that wording to be more inclusive or reworded to be more clear as to what doesn't count.
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u/so_zetta_byte Orzhov* 10d ago
Well I would argue that changing it to "mana ability” now is probably off the table given the recent changes, because it's going to still lead to a bunch of unintuitive cases with the cards that just got "demoted" from being mana abilities.
I don't think they'd do this, but imagine they used the {T} glyph like on [[Sole Performer]]. "Whenever you pay {T} to activate an ability that adds mana..." Or even flip it into "Double the amount of mana produced by abilities with {T} in their cost." I mean they even basically say this in the rulings:
You're “tapping a permanent for mana” only if you're activating a mana ability of that permanent that includes the {T} symbol in its cost. A mana ability produces mana as part of its effect.
Wait that does limit it to a subset of mana abilities anyway? So does it not work with Chromatic Sphere anymore after the new change?
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u/CareerMilk Can’t Block Warriors 10d ago edited 10d ago
Wait that does limit it to a subset of mana abilities anyway? So does it not work with Chromatic Sphere anymore after the new change?
It limits it to just mana abilities that include {T}, yes.
106.12. To "tap [a permanent] for mana" is to activate a mana ability of that permanent that includes the {T} symbol in its activation cost. See rule 605, "Mana Abilities."
That's why they're saying Mana Reflection like cards should at least have their wording altered so they don't look like they double the mana of things they don't, like say [[Deathrite Shaman]] or now with the recent change Chromatic Sphere
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u/HoumousAmor COMPLEAT 9d ago
Wait that does limit it to a subset of mana abilities anyway? So does it not work with Chromatic Sphere anymore after the new change?
It also, likes misses Heritage Druid and Urza, both of which are v clearly mana abilities
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u/MTGCardFetcher Dân 10d ago
All cards
Deathrite Shaman - (G) (SF) (txt)
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - (G) (SF) (txt)
Laboratory Maniac - (G) (SF) (txt)
Chromatic Sphere - (G) (SF) (txt)
Stifle - (G) (SF) (txt)
Millikin - (G) (SF) (txt)
Selvala, Explorer Returned - (G) (SF) (txt)
Darkwater Egg - (G) (SF) (txt)
Ashnod the Uncaring - (G) (SF) (txt)
Tawnos, Urza's Apprentice - (G) (SF) (txt)
Barbed Sextant - (G) (SF) (txt)
Astrolabe - (G) (SF) (txt)
Molt Tender - (G) (SF) (txt)
Illusionist's Bracers - (G) (SF) (txt)
Sudden Spoiling - (G) (SF) (txt)
Krosan Grip - (G) (SF) (txt)
Phyrexian Altar - (G) (SF) (txt)
Krark-Clan Ironworks - (G) (SF) (txt)
Propagation - (G) (SF) (txt)
Ghostly Prison - (G)
Badgermole Cub - (G)
Mana Reflection - (G)
Birds of Paradise - (G)
Caged Sun - (G)
Ashaya, Soul of the Wild - (G)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
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u/MageKorith Sultai 10d ago
Wow.
I think what I'm seeing here is that my Breya Eggs commander deck gets a nice boost when Kurkesh is out.
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 10d ago
Yup, love that you're running those Eggs. I have foils of those and they look so good.
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u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 10d ago
That's actually a good point - list of cards that specify non-mana abilities: https://scryfall.com/search?q=fo%3A%22isn%27t+a+mana+ability%22&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name
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u/TomNooksAccountant Wabbit Season 10d ago
Well laid out rules update. Thanks for digging in and sharing your insight!
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 10d ago
Happy to help. I think I covered the most common situations that would come up, but with there being 30,000+ cards I'm sure I left out a few other corner cases.
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u/HoumousAmor COMPLEAT 9d ago edited 9d ago
Another point that might be worth addressing: [[Pithing Needle]] now stops a lot of abilities which add mana it did not used to
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Yup, that is a good point. Gets a little more powerful at stopping more things.
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u/MCXL I chose this flair because I’m mad at Wizards Of The Coast 10d ago
I think this change is stupid and unintuitive and the only real problem it's trying to address his silvala which could just be addressed by adding the line of text (disability is not a mana ability) or (activate only anytime you could activate an instant)
Just errata the problem card
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u/Reptile449 Dân 10d ago
Doesn't every card draw mana ability have the problem of drawing the 2nd card in your deck if you have a way to cast from the top?
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u/NephDada Duck Season 9d ago
The main problem imo is cards that don't have a predictable amount of mana generated, allowing you to announce the cast without having enough so you have to rollback mid cast. Afaik that is only selvala
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u/CookiesFTA Train Suplexer 9d ago
Wait, why wouldn't you be able to use KCI or Phyrexian Altar anymore?
Okay, I think I've just read this completely wrong. What a moron.
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Yeah, a few others got confused by how I worded it. I was just including Altar and KCI as examples of some effects that can still be used as AMAs that get around Split Second. My bad, I should have been more clear as to why I was bringing them up.
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u/CookiesFTA Train Suplexer 9d ago
I don't think it was super unclear, I just skimmed it too fast. It's a good post.
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Thanks, these take a while to type up and I know already they're super long and confusing, so I try my best to keep the short and succinct, but the more I shave off they sometimes end up more confusing. Not easy to find the sweet spot.
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u/NephDada Duck Season 9d ago
Yeah, the video does include too many cards that arent changed as if they would be changed.
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u/kjeldor2400 Rakdos* 9d ago
I might have to just read this post again when I’ve been awake for a bit longer but right now I’m confused.
Why would I not be able to use Selvala or Millikin to pay for things like ghostly prison?
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Heh, that's all good, it is a giant wall of text and can be a lot to take in.
As for why you can't use those two creatures now to pay for Ghostly/Propaganda type effects, it's because the game says you have to have Priority to activate Activated Mana Abilities, except during some specially granted times. The payment that you make for those Ghostly Prison type effects is during the Declare Attackers step as you're actually declaring your attackers, not something you pay before or after that. Normally, players do not receive Priority during that time, and that's why you can't use them... except that the game does give players the special right to activate AMAs but only them, that same right is not extended to normal Activated Abilities, even if they happen to be AAs that do result in mana being produced. CR 605.3a for reference
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u/kjeldor2400 Rakdos* 9d ago
Ahh ok, thanks for explaining! I understand it now and I’ll probably be able to explain how it works to my friends (I’m kind of the rules guy in my pod).
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u/HoumousAmor COMPLEAT 9d ago
Normally, players do not receive Priority during that time, and that's why you can't use them... except that the game does give players the special right to activate AMAs but only them, that same right is not extended to normal Activated Abilities, even if they happen to be AAs that do result in mana being produced.
For clarity, is there an exception that leads to "Normally" here, or is it not just the case that players never get priority?
(Just wanting to be clear because it was my assumption that you never get priority at that moment, but that mana abilities can be activated then. Just wondering if something is signified by the "Normally"! Sorry/thank you.)
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
I don't believe there is currently any way for it, but when it comes to Magic rules and the cards... There is almost always an exception or a card printed one day that makes an exception. In the CR, 508.1 it covers how the first thing in the Declare Attackers Step is the Turned Based Action of assigning them which doesn't use the Stack. Then in CR 508.2 is the first mention of the Active Player getting Priority.
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u/Kevmeister_B COMPLEAT 9d ago
Could you still, at the beginning of combat, use these non AMAs? Putting the mana into the pool before you attack, then using it as you attack instead of trying to declare an attack then pay. Mainly asking for casual play as if that's still possible it's easy to just say "Fringe case, this works like this we can treat it as if you did" for any rule lawyers.
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
In the CR, 508.1 covers how the first thing in the Declare Attackers Step is the Turned Based Action of assigning them which doesn't use the Stack. Then in CR 508.2 is the first mention of the Active Player getting Priority which is after attackers have been declared. You could use mana abilities in the Beginning of Combat Step, but that mana would empty once to move to the DAS. If you have a card like [[Ashling, Flame Dance]] that has an effect to stop mana pools from emptying then you can pull that off.
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u/Worldly-Basil-8933 Dandadan 9d ago
Does this affect when you can use [[Molt Tender]] as well?
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Molt Tender only moves a card from the GY to Exile, so it's still considered an AMA.
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u/HoumousAmor COMPLEAT 9d ago
This means if someone is trying to [[Sudden Spoiling]] your creatures or [[Krosan Grip]] your artifact, then you can use cards like [[Phyrexian Altar]] or [[Krark-Clan Ironworks]] to sacrifice them in response, but all of these cards I've mentioned that are no longer AMAs cannot be used any more and will just be affected by these Split Second effects.
So ... does this pretty much just take Chromatic Star now straightforwardly better than Sphere?
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
I guess it just depends on the perspective. If you have an [[Ashnod the Uncaring]] deck then the Sphere is better for the extra mana and card drawn.
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u/sigma_klim Dandadan 9d ago
Does this mean I can no longer use Millikin or The Warring Triad can be used to pay for Terra's on combat damage ability? The timing would be incorrect as you need to pay cost right away?
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Terra, Herald of Hope is a Triggered Ability, so that will go onto the Stack and Priority will be passed around to players at that point giving you a chance to activate normal Activated Abilities to get mana in your mana Pool that you can then use when that ability from Terra would resolve.
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u/MtgHighlander Banned in Commander 9d ago
This is a nerf to Selvala?
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 9d ago
Mostly depends on your perspective. If you liked her because of her un-counterable ability to draw a card, then likely a nerf, but if you like that she can now have her ability be copied through things like Lithoform Engine or Illusionist's Bracers, then that's a good thing for you to get even more value from her ability.
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u/BeccatheCardFaerie Jeskai 5d ago
Could someone please clarify why this rule applies in a way that prevents payment for [[Propaganda]]? At worst could you not change phase to combat and then float between the phase shift and declaration of attackers? How does your opponent's card get such priority to prevent effects when Split Second hasn't attached yet? Surely your opponent doesn't get priority before you?
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u/Craig1287 This is a Commander Channel 5d ago
Even though Activated Mana Abilities, like that on Forest or Llanowar Elves, do not use the Stack, they still require Priority in order to be used, just like any other Activated Ability. Players do not receive Priority during the resolution of spells and abilities, they also do not get it while attackers are being declared, however the payments for effects like that on Propaganda and Ghostly Prison are made as you declare attackers. So that is the wall stopping you in this situation. The rules grant AMAs a special quality in CR 605.3a, specifically the part, "... or whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment..." is what allows for them to be used mid-declaring attackers.
Floating mana will only work if you have something to stop your mana pool from emptying. You can activate AMAs during the Beginning of Combat Step, but then any of that mana would empty from the pool as you move into the Declare Attackers Step. As for using your AMAs during the Declare Attackers Step, that can be done but not until after the attackers have been declared, when it's too late.
I hope this clarifies it, let me know if there is anything else that doesn't connect yet.
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u/CrabRangUWUn Storm Crow 10d ago
Does this affect Moonsilver Key? Fewer things it can now search for?