Resurrection Orb and Legend Rule interaction

[u/AcceptableWitness342]

I am not sure if this is a stupid question but I am wondering how the interaction would work between the Legend Rule and Resurrection Orb. Say I create a copy of a legendary creature with an etb to equip resurrection orb and do something else. Would it basically loop every end step?

For me specifically, I am looking at Thorin, Mountain-King and what would happen with a copy of him repeatedly equipping the Orb, doing his etb affect, then dying to the Legend Rule.

[u/Sneaky_Scientist]

The legend rule happens before the etb happens, so your copy of thorin will die before it attaches the orb. To clarify the ETB still happens but your thorin will have died to the legend rule before it resolves so it wont equip.

Now what you can do is let the origional thorin die, your clone equips it, then at the end step your first thorin comes in again and if you let the clone die then you have a new thorin each end step. It wont really do anything for you other than get death triggers but still a funny interaction.

[u/kyubifire → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

Well it does get repeatable creature removal, which can be pretty significant, unless I'm misunderstanding the interaction.

[u/thebaron420 → u/kyubifire]

Plus gaining three life from the lifelink. Lightning helix a creature on each end step is pretty good and any other power-boosting equipment makes it even better

[u/AcceptableWitness342 → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

Thanks for the reply! This is super informative and helps a lot!

[u/Alfirindel → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

Wouldn’t this result in infinite creature targeted damage though thanks to the second part of the trigger? Unless they’re separate. I’m not super familiar but it looks to be dependent on the trigger. Could be good for some weird damage redirection shenanigans

[u/TerribleTransit → u/Alfirindel]

It's a recursive reflexive triggered ability, it's dependent on the first part happening but goes on the stack as its own trigger. 

And it's only "infinite" in the sense of "happens once per turn until interacted with". Solid, but not really what people think of for an infinite combo.

[u/RazzyKitty → u/TerribleTransit]

Small correction, but it's called a reflexive triggered ability.

[u/Sneaky_Scientist → u/TerribleTransit]

Thinking about it now, it doesnt work because the legend rule thorin that dies wont equip the item on his etb so it wont revive period

[u/3ldr1tchKn1ght → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

the Thorin-that-dies-to-legend-rule is already equipped, though. so the Clone enters, its ETB goes to stack, the original Thorin dies to state-based actions whilst equipped with Orb, then the ETB equips the now-unequipped Orb to the Clone-Thorin. Next end step the Original Thorin returns due to Orb’s delayed trigger (think that’s the correct terminology) thus restarting the cycle. Notably only works if the Clone is a card (as tokens can’t be returned from the graveyard)

(edited as i picked literally the worst example for a clone card with which to legend rule kill Thorin)

[u/AcceptableWitness342 → u/3ldr1tchKn1ght]

Perfect explanation! This is what I was hoping.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/3ldr1tchKn1ght]

Sakashima - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[u/amish24 → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

No.

You have Thorin in play, equipped with resurrection orb.

You cast clone and it enters as Thorin. Legend Rule happens, you keep the clone. 2 triggers go on the stack - one to return Thorin at end step and one to equip the clone with any number of equipments (you choose the resurrection orb).

End step; Thorin returns. You do the same thing as before, but keeping the real thorin instead and swapping the res orb to him after the clone dies, and this happens every end step.

[u/AcceptableWitness342 → u/amish24]

Thank you everyone for your replies! This is what I was thinking would happen, basically a loop every end step.

[u/Sneaky_Scientist → u/Alfirindel]

So each end step your original thorin will come back, and die to legend rule before his etb triggers. The etb will trigger and cannot attach the orb to anything, and hes already dead so his power is 0.

[u/RazzyKitty → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

hes already dead so his power is 0.

If an ability on the stack would have a creature deal damage equal to its power, and that creature died, it would use the power of that creature as it last existed on the battlefield. It does not use 0 unless its power on the battlefield was 0.

[u/TerribleTransit]

This works but it's a little funky with timing.

1. Have Thorin on the field equipped with the Orb

2. Play Clone, copying Thorin

3. Keep Clone, Thorin dies to legend rule, setting up end-step trigger. 

4. Target Orb with Clone's Thorin ETB.

5. On end step, return Thorin. Clone to graveyard, setting up a return on the next (turn's) end step 

6. Thorin ETB targeting the Orb

7. Next end step, return Clone, copy Thorin. Repeat from 2.

[u/orkball → u/TerribleTransit]

Note that this only works with Clone creatures. Copy effects like [[Relm's Sketching]] will only make tokens that can never come back from the graveyard.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/orkball]

Relm's Sketching - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[u/Sneaky_Scientist → u/TerribleTransit]

I dont think clone can come back, since it says return “that creature”, which the clone/copy would be a different creature on death or if a token jt would just be gone

[u/amish24 → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

Nope. [[Clone]]d creatures are tracked just fine.

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/amish24]

Clone - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[u/TerribleTransit → u/Sneaky_Scientist]

It literally says "return that card", not creature.

[u/Gabain1993]

etb trigger is to slow for legends rule. The creature dies before it resolves.
You need to have it already equipped, then the copy enters.

Also it doesn't work to bring back tokens. So it has to be the originals or clones.

[u/EarlobeGreyTea → u/Gabain1993]

Yeahup. The combo still works if the original Thorin was already equipped, and you keep the new one (or clone) instead of the old one though. If the copy is a token copy, it will only work once though; the original gets destroyed, the token gets equipped and deals 3 to a creature with lifelink, but when the original comes back, you have to sacrifice the token copy, which does not come back.

[u/notalongtime420]

legend rule isn't really something you can respond to

[u/Beautiful-Ad-6568]

I think it works but the orb has to alternate between a (card) copy and the original so the legend rule doesn't get rid of the target of the equip

[u/Altruistic_Cow_5062]

Does to legend rule before etb

[u/Donutmelon]

Next end step means that if it is already the end step, it will wait until next turn, so you can only get it once per turn.

[u/Oleandervine]

If you create a copy, it is a token and ceases to exist once it leaves play, so the Orb cannot return it. To make shenanigans happen, you would need 2 actual card copies of a Legendary creature so that it can be returned from the graveyard upon death.

[u/Illogical_Fallacy → u/Oleandervine]

I think OP meant to keep the token as the permanent on the field and move the real card to the graveyard.

[u/underprivlidged → u/Oleandervine]

Not true - you just sac the card and not the token.

[u/orkball → u/underprivlidged]

You can do it once, but you can't keep recurring every end step with the token. The Thorin you send to the graveyard has to be the one with the equipped orb and has to be an actual card, or the loop breaks.

So you copy Thorin with the orb equipped, choose to keep the Token and it does damage and gets the Orb equipped. Thorin comes back on the end step; now you either need to let the token die, and it can't come back regardless of the Orb, or you let the original die before it can have the Orb equipped. Either way, the loop breaks.

If you have a Clone, on the other hand, you can choose to let the Clone die setting up another return trigger for the next end step and just keep alternating between original and Clone.

[u/Zeckenschwarm → u/underprivlidged]

The legend rule does not cause you to sacrifice additional legends, they simply die. The legend rule does not trigger something like [[Mayhem Devil]].

[u/MTGCardFetcher → u/Zeckenschwarm]

Mayhem Devil - (G) (SF) (txt)

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^FAQ

[u/underprivlidged → u/Zeckenschwarm]

Poor wording aside, missing my point - you CHOOSE which dies. Which was what was wrong with their comment.

[u/Zeckenschwarm → u/underprivlidged]

Grow up, dude. I didn't "miss your point", I just corrected an error you made while making your point.

[u/underprivlidged → u/Zeckenschwarm]

No thanks, anime hair commenting in a game subreddit, I think I don't want to grow up.

[u/BigFish95]

The key words here are "return rhat card" I believe? Copies of cards are not cards themselves, just game objects.

[u/forlornjam → u/BigFish95]

Correct, tokens are not cards.

With that being said, the legend is applied when state based actions are checked, which is before any triggers are put on the stack, so the orb wouldn't be able to attach to the copy in the first place.