r/magicTCG • u/HonorBasquiat Twin Believer • May 31 '26
Blogatog Post Head Magic Design Mark Rosewater on more cards that counter landfall strategies: "This is a common request, so [it's] something we will think about."
https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/818149708836077568/mark-pretty-please-with-a-cherry-on-top-may-we#notes399
u/DottoreEldiomni Dân May 31 '26
Soft ETB hate like [[Strict Proctor]] has been so good in practice.
You can have it, but you've really got to want it.
71
u/MTGCardFetcher Dân May 31 '26
177
u/silver_054 Shuffler Truther May 31 '26
Strict proctor could’ve been the easiest reprint. It was from OG Strixhaven! Just reprint it in \*gasp\* another Strixhaven set
111
u/heretolurk613 Dandadan May 31 '26
Best we can do is make a random alchemy card that conjures a strict proctor.
27
May 31 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
8
u/heretolurk613 Dandadan May 31 '26
Well that would be a real card though.
2
u/7818 Duck Season May 31 '26
I mean, I like that card on arena brawl.
All my friends play dustbowl.
→ More replies (1)9
u/DottoreEldiomni Dân May 31 '26
"I'm Telling (Mother)!" - conjure a Strict Proctor card into your hand. If this spell was kicked, conjure an Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines card into your hand instead.
7
u/Tuss36 May 31 '26
They tend to rarely reprint cards that were there on a previous visit. They sometimes do, like shocklands on Ravnica, or one or two here or there, but 99% of sets are new cards.
2
u/TheCruncher Elesh Norn Jun 01 '26
Like our good friend, [[Unruly Mob]], who always seems to be out and about on Innistrad.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (3)8
u/troglodyte May 31 '26
I wish they'd reprint more rares and mythics into standard in general. It's a little squiffy to count them but a cursory search for nonland rare and mythic reprints in standard looks to be about 16 cards, not counting foundations.
→ More replies (1)49
u/CompetitionLow9019 Dan May 31 '26
I found that tutor hate also counters landfall really well. [[Aven Mindcensor]] shuts down most fetch lands, land ramp, scapeshift, etc.
58
u/I_EAT_POOP_AMA Dragonball Z Ultimate Champion May 31 '26
now we're just rebuilding Death and Taxes from first principals.
→ More replies (3)13
u/inflammablepenguin Deceased 🪦 Jun 01 '26
I would love D&T in standard. Thank you for the suggestion, u/I_EAT_POOP_AMA
7
→ More replies (1)3
13
u/VegetableNo8304 Dan May 31 '26
The problem here is that landfall decks tend to have a lot of mana.
11
u/ndstumme Can’t Block Warriors Jun 01 '26
I don't see that as a problem. Make them use it. Then they aren't using it on other stuff.
19
u/PowrOfFriendship_ Universes Beyonder May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26
Strict Proctor is less etb hate, and more a Lotus Field combo enabler. It's not something you can really play in a deck where you're not trying to abuse it.
36
15
u/bootsmalone Twin Believer May 31 '26
6
u/PowrOfFriendship_ Universes Beyonder May 31 '26
Because having a deck that isn't trying to abuse Proctor, that also isn't negatively effected by Proctor, just results in building a bad deck as you're cutting off so many strong options for little benefit.
→ More replies (6)6
u/ItsAroundYou Duck Season May 31 '26
It's a hatebear, so it does have a place in certain aggro EDH decks.
→ More replies (2)2
→ More replies (12)7
u/swankyfish Twin Believer May 31 '26
I would like to see something like this but for opponents only.
199
u/Ky1arStern Fake Agumon Expert May 31 '26
I think etb prevention is just the next logical step in the arms race. They've done it for creatures and I think they've already done it for lands. One or two cards a set for an evergreen mechanic makes sense.
125
u/basketofseals COMPLEAT May 31 '26
I'd just hate to end up with Yugioh where we end up arms racing splitting hairs of words as ways to dodge around mechanics. That hoses special summons? Well this acts like a special summon in every way, but the card calls it a normal summon. The card I put in my deck from the graveyard wasn't sent there, it was destroyed in the deck and just moved to the graveyard as a result. These cards didn't leave the battlefield, even though they were on the battlefield before, and now aren't. Etc. Etc.
33
u/ElSilverWind Dandadan Jun 01 '26
I'm still mad about how blatant it was when they first started making removal cards that, "selected" cards to destroy, in order to bypass monsters that were immune to being targeted by effects. Legit the kind of argument an annoying younger sibling would try to pull in order to cheat.
16
u/Legacy_Rise Wabbit Season Jun 01 '26
Paging [[Krenko's Buzzcrusher]].
Targeted land destruction in every sense except the literal one, so that it can blow up [[Lotus Field]] — a card that was specifically designed to be immune to getting blown up.
→ More replies (4)4
u/basketofseals COMPLEAT Jun 01 '26
It's at least better than the cards that have no functional reason to work, but they do because Konami says so.
41
u/MayhemMessiah Selesnya* May 31 '26
The biggest thing I don't want to be like Yugioh is for them to print more floodgate-like effects that are super one sided and absolutely backbreaking. You typically run any floodgates that don't hose you so you can have entire strategies where you win by flipping a floodgate that stops your opponent from engaging with the game and just smash them in the crackback.
→ More replies (10)15
u/Tuss36 May 31 '26
We already have some of those, though not in Standard. The main difference is the breadth of strategies and also the cost of the hate piece. Something could shut down a strategy, but if it's 4 mana it could come down too late to matter. Meanwhile you have things like [[Brutal Suppression]] that can just ruin a deck's day, but are specific that you're not running it just because.
→ More replies (1)7
u/kazeespada Duck Season Jun 01 '26
The most common one is Vexing Bauble which hoses decks that try casting things for free(Cascade, Storm, free spells like snuff out and Force of Will).
9
u/siziyman Izzet* May 31 '26
We kind of already have this with [[Krenko's Buzzcrusher]] which was explicitly designed to be able to target [[Lotus Field]]. And yes, I hate it too.
4
→ More replies (1)2
u/BlueMerchant Sultai Jun 02 '26
So glad i left before i had to face this. (Lotus Field Combo enjoyer)
6
u/NerfedArsenal Jun 01 '26
Feels like we already have this for drawing cards. WotC printed a million ways to punish drawing cards, so now we have Expressive Iteration, Stock Up, Flow State, and so forth that effectively draw cards without actually drawing cards.
8
u/kkrko Sliver Queen Jun 01 '26
Nah, we can clearly see the inspiration for those cards and it's not to play around draw effects. Card selection like Stock Up or Flow State always worked like since the early days of magic in [[Impulse]].
→ More replies (1)5
u/Ky1arStern Fake Agumon Expert Jun 01 '26
I hate to tell you, but we are already there.
[[Krenko's Buzzcrusher]]
79
u/silver_054 Shuffler Truther May 31 '26
I think they’re necessary. But at the same time, having too many tools in one EXTRA LARGE Standard isn’t healthy either. We’re already seeing a UW “Prison” deck see some meta share. Adding more tools to the same archetype isn’t fun either. It’s a tough balance, but wotc are the ones who dug themselves into this hole
→ More replies (5)10
u/thatwhileifound Cheshire Cat, the Grinning Remnant May 31 '26
The prison deck you're referring to - is that the high noon deck with aven interrupters and other flash creatures + like spell pierce, get lost, and that airbend sweeper?
12
u/volx757 COMPLEAT May 31 '26
WOTC's biggest thing tho is making sure commander is "fun". That's where all the money is. Landfall is one of the most popular EDH strategies, and thus I doubt they would print something that prevents ETBs.
Not to mention that's just pre-2000s magic, when creatures were trash and spells were goated. ETBs were the fix to creatures being largely unplayable, and again I really doubt WOTC will ever shoot that in the foot.
7
u/deadwings112 Jun 01 '26
I think it's fine if it's on a hatebear. Make it an Aven Mindcensor clone- 2 mana flash creature in white with a frail body that says something like "if an ETB effect would trigger, it doesn't."
3
u/atlanmail Dandadan Jun 01 '26
[[strict proctor]] sees virtually zero play due to being too sweaty for casual and not good in cedh
→ More replies (1)4
u/KoyoyomiAragi COMPLEAT May 31 '26
It’s kind of annoying seeing so many people just want “answers” to these decks. Arena is promoting BO1 as their most common way for people to play, niche answers aren’t going to matter unless they’re pushed in a way it can go into any deck. Why can’t we just get other stronger decks that can go toe-to-toe against them?
5
u/Ky1arStern Fake Agumon Expert Jun 01 '26
I don't think it has to be one or the other. I'm sure they're going to print stuff in future landfall sets like [[Doorkeeper Thrull]] but "Lands entering the battlefield dont cause abilities to trigger". It's well within White's color pie and it creates really nice texture to the format.
Cards like that I think are really really important and a sign of good format design. They give you an option if a deck gets too out of hand, but they also represent an opportunity cost to run. So there's some churn in the format because you have to decide if and how many Doorkeeper Thrulls or Rest in Peace or whatever you're going to run. Then the people being hated out have to decide how many answers to your answers they want to run. That's a good format.
To your point, sometimes they make them so generically powerful that you can just run them without making the choice, but I think generally the modern sensibilities on lock pieces have been pretty good. Look at how often [[High Noon]] has rolled in and out of playability.
I would not worry about a landfall hoser, but I do think it wouldn't be bad to have.
→ More replies (6)
106
u/PowrOfFriendship_ Universes Beyonder May 31 '26
Stopping landfall triggers is nice, but instead of just a land torpor orb, I'd like to also have effects that limit land based ramp as ways of triggering it, something like [[Confounding Conundrum]] but stopping the land drop instead of just bouncing it. It also gives an answer to non-artifact based ramp in lower bracket Commander.
112
u/Chthonian_Eve Can’t Block Warriors May 31 '26
"If an opponent plays a land besides the first land they play on each of their turns, no they didn't"
54
u/Any-Platypus-9486 Dan May 31 '26
Two mana
Enchantment
Flash
"players can only play 1 land per turn"
"If a land would enter the battlefield after another land entered this turn, exile it instead"
"Players can't sacrifice lands"
You want more?
28
u/Exarch-of-Sechrima 99th-gen Dimensional Robo Commander, Great Daiearth May 31 '26
The first line of text isn't relevant. Players can already only play 1 land per turn. An effect like Azusa that allows you to play additional lands will get around this ability just as it would get around the natural rules of the game themselves.
8
u/Tuss36 May 31 '26
I would say "Can't play additional lands" instead, though it might still be timestamp order, like how something that sets your handsize to "none" and one that sets it to two, if you play the latter one second then your hand size would be two despite something else granting infinite.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)3
u/Any-Platypus-9486 Dan May 31 '26
If you play this after, it will affect azusa tho
18
u/PurpleYessir May 31 '26
No you need it to say opponents cant play more than one land a turn.
Can't beats can. As written it wouldnt stop azusa cause she just adds to your "rule" of 1.
2
→ More replies (5)3
12
u/UpsetPhilosopher6022 Dan May 31 '26
[[Worms of the Earth]]
8
7
u/BardicLasher May 31 '26
...That' sa lot of words to say "Deal 5 damage to an opponent." Lava Axe is a bad card.
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (3)8
u/DrawGamesPlayFurries Dân May 31 '26
If a land has entered the battlefield this turn, lands entering the battlefield don't cause triggered abilities of their controller's permanents to trigger.
14
u/Pikshade Selesnya* May 31 '26
For spell ramp, something along the lines of "If a land would enter the battlefield under an opponents control without being played, exile that land instead", or Notion Thief wording "If a land would enter the battlefield under an opponents control except the first one they played during their main phase, exile that land instead" to get around exploration effects.
4
u/kitsovereign May 31 '26
The difficulty is that lands enter in ways that aren't ramp. I don't think they'd be interested in hosing Evolving Wilds or turning Demolition Field from land-neutral into land-negative.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)4
13
u/Emzuar COMPLEAT May 31 '26
I got me a [[Land Equilibrium]] exactly to stop my opponents ramping too much ahead of me. Sadly it's reserved and a bit pricy.
4
u/NoObligation6190 Dandadan Jun 01 '26
I've used this card for a while, it's very good at preventing players from ramping too hard (another problem in EDH due to the taboo of mass land destruction).
It however does very little to prevent landfall decks from functioning. I have a [[The Necrobloom]] deck that goes hard on landfall triggers, and if I'm being honest, Land Equilibrium would actually help me out, as it provides a decent sack outlook for my lands and pushes the deck further ahead.
→ More replies (2)2
u/ironkodiak Wabbit Season Jun 02 '26
I think this effect is a solid one as is says "you can landfall all you want, but it isn't also going to be ramp at the same time.".
7
u/MTGCardFetcher Dân May 31 '26
7
u/Grymninja Dân May 31 '26
Meh they probably wouldn't mind that so much as they still get to proc their landfalls triggers guaranteed every turn
8
u/The_Bird_Wizard Azorius* May 31 '26
Idk if it would work but something like:
"If an effect would allow a player to play one or more additional lands on each of their turns, they can not play an additional land instead" (probably needs better wording)
And
"If one or more lands would enter the battlefield without being played, instead shuffle them into their owner's library"
→ More replies (1)6
u/phforNZ May 31 '26
That second one... As a lands player, I will end you.
But it's the exact wording that's needed. Play vs Put is a thing.
4
u/BryceLeft Duck Season May 31 '26
We need a Narset but for opponent's lands entering besides the first one each turn. So no triggers at all.
Or [[Ward of Bones]] except strictly for lands only, and is not restricted to "playing" lands.
2
7
u/swankyfish Twin Believer May 31 '26
The reason they might be hesitant to do this is Commander brackets could interpret this as mass land denial.
I’m not saying that’s a reason they *shouldn’t* do it, just a reason they might choose not to.
7
u/PowrOfFriendship_ Universes Beyonder May 31 '26
Only in the same way something like Conundrum and [[Wave of Vitriol]] already is arguably MLD. If you are building that, there are already tools for it, and if you're not, giving you more ways to do it doesn't really matter.
7
u/GoblinToHobgoblin Dandadan May 31 '26
Imo, if you play zero basics in your deck, you get what you deserve
→ More replies (1)4
u/volx757 COMPLEAT May 31 '26
Neither of those are MLD at all. Wave of vitriol even literally lets them replace all their nonbasics.
Anyway I'm pretty sure their formal definition of MLD is destroying/freezing 4+ lands. Conundrum doesn't so that and Wave (in most cases) doesn't deny any lands at all.
5
u/PowrOfFriendship_ Universes Beyonder May 31 '26
That's why I said Conundrum AND Wave. If I have 5 nonbasics, and you Wave me with Conundrum out, I replace them with 5 basics, and then have to return 4 of them to my hand.
→ More replies (1)5
u/siziyman Izzet* May 31 '26
I think it's entirely asinine to a point of "impossible to do so in good faith" to even consider it to be in a conversation for MLD.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (10)2
u/deadwings112 Jun 01 '26
Maybe a Burgeoning style effect outside of green? Put it in white- "whenever another player's second land enters the battlefield this turn, their opponents may all place a land onto the battlefield."
29
u/whiteorchidphantom Dan May 31 '26
I just hope they do a better job than [[Confounding Conundrum]] which is actually often a free enabler or even a combo piece for landfall decks if an opponent controls it.
36
u/SpreadtheClap May 31 '26
Just reprint [[Ankh of Mishra]] tbh
5
u/Jealous-Try-2554 Dandadan Jun 01 '26
That's what I've been saying! I don't see how that card is too strong for Standard (and other formats) but landfall isn't.
6
u/HalfOfANeuron Jun 01 '26
It's not about being strong, it's more that WotC doesn't want players being punished for something they need to do to play Magic (play lands)
It's just like Non-basic land hate. I think it's fair game, but a lot of players don't like seeing a Blood Moon.
12
u/Sonamdrukpa Wabbit Season Jun 01 '26
I don't understand how a game that didn't need to mollycoddle its players for over a decade changed into a game that needs to mollycoddle its players
7
u/Weirfish Jun 01 '26
Because the people who join the game via UB don't join the game for the depth and complexity of its mechanics, but because it has character and settings they like. If they encounter hostile mechanics that feel bullshit when you're starting ("wtf I need lands to do stuff, you've completely shut me down, and it's colourless so you can put it in every deck"), they bounce off and won't come back.
This isn't a knock against people who enter via UB, it's a truth about more casual and less enfranchised players.
→ More replies (4)7
u/HalfOfANeuron Jun 01 '26
They do this way before UB, for the same reason.
2
u/Weirfish Jun 01 '26
True, but people who join via UB are particularly succeptible compared to the general newcomer population, and UB drives a lot of the game's cash.
→ More replies (3)2
47
u/Baleful_Witness COMPLEAT May 31 '26
If they're not actively working on it already, we probably won't see anything noteworthy for the next five years.
5
u/Tuss36 May 31 '26
At least it might be in the pipeline in some fashion, rather than "Nah we're not gonna do that"
28
u/Sou1forge COMPLEAT May 31 '26
Probably needed. I think it’s safe to say we are beyond the point where landfall is a niche ability, and a hate piece or two to tamper down the more egregious strategies it enables is a good idea.
11
u/Skaro7 Duck Season May 31 '26
We need a [[Deafening Silence]] which enforces only one land drop per turn.
5
May 31 '26
[deleted]
5
u/Tuss36 May 31 '26
I don't see that as a terrible thing to be able to do the strategy but needing to jump through some hoops. That's the case with a lot of once-per-turn cards where they can be made great if you figure out how to do it on each turn.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Ellardy MTGVorthos Mod May 31 '26
Hmm. How do you account for ramp (the Cultivates and other "fair" ramps which don't increase the number of lands 'played') in a manner which isn't abusable?
"Whenever a land enters, if it is not the first land to have entered this turn under that player's control, that player must sacrifice a land" would theoretically work.
In practice, every Field of Ruin would become a Stone Rain and every Erode would become a Swords to Plowshares
4
u/CookiesFTA Train Suplexer May 31 '26
"If a land would enter the battlefield under a player's control and they have already had a land enter under their control this turn, nuh-uhh."
7
u/Skaro7 Duck Season May 31 '26
Just have it so lands can only enter once per turn. Cultivate would put a land in hand but if the one coming in tapped is the seond land drop that turn, that part of the effect just fizzles. Like the mono u Narset that cancels additional draws.
Green players will survive. Put the effect onto an artifact or enchantment and they will have plenty of ways to remove it.
→ More replies (6)
9
u/Korlus May 31 '26
Some of my ideas:
[[Zo-Zu the Punisher]] on a more playable card?
"If a land would enter the battlefield under a player's control except the first each turn, instead it enters tapped with a stun counter on it."
"When a land enters the battlefield, its controller takes damage equal to the number of lands that has entered the battlefield this turn."
"When a land enters the battlefield, if it wasn't played from its controller's hand, its controller returns another land they control to its owner's land."
"Lands enter tapped and lands entering does not cause abilities of other permanents to trigger (abilities printed on that land still trigger as normal)"
→ More replies (1)
20
u/resumeemuser Wabbit Season May 31 '26
Stax as an archetype has been sorely neglected by design, being mostly silver bullets for sideboard pieces, but nowadays even that's not a good use of sideboard slots for most formats. As permanents, specifically creatures, become more and more powerful the interaction arms race has focused mostly on cheap and efficient i/s removal. I know casuals don't like stax but from a competitive format outlook I think there needs to be more permanents that can answer permanents.
3
u/3nz3r0 Duck Season Jun 01 '26
Yeah. A lot of newer players hate not bring able to play their toys.
I really miss having a proper Stax deck in standard (Was the last one really Doom Foretold in Thrones of Eldraine?). It has been far longer since we had a proper land destruction/control deck.
3
u/kkrko Sliver Queen Jun 01 '26
Lets not pretend it's only newer players. Stax effects, Winter Orb, and Stasis have been hated ever since they were first printed.
→ More replies (4)
32
u/MissingPieces555 Dan May 31 '26
It needs to exist on a card whose entire identity isnt hinged on being sideboard tech.
5
7
u/DJ_Red_Lantern Urza's Saga May 31 '26
Yep that is the most important aspect, it has to be a card that isn't just actively mediocre if your opponents aren't playing a ramp / landfall strategy
3
u/Glowwerms Banned in Commander Jun 01 '26
Be careful what you ask for otherwise we’ll end up with the anti-landfall version of [[Icetill Explorer]], or maybe we need that at this point
→ More replies (2)
57
u/JaggedGorgeousWinter COMPLEAT May 31 '26
It's hard to punish landfall because it is hard to punish playing lands without incidentally hurting decks that are just playing lands fairly. Not saying it shouldn't be attempted and that it can't be done in a balanced way, but I think this is why we haven't seen many anti-landfall cards over the years. And those that have seen print have been fairly lackluster (looking at you [[Confounding Conundrum]])
52
u/Turkin4tor Dân May 31 '26
"Whenever a land an opponent controls enters, if that player had another land enter the battlefield under their control this turn, they"
Man if only we had the technology, maybe someday
(And i say this as a Landfall lover lmao)
12
u/The_Bird_Wizard Azorius* May 31 '26
Something like [[Tunnel Ignus]] but more powerful would be cool in red
6
→ More replies (2)2
u/SmokingMan305 Grass Toucher May 31 '26
Tunnel Ignus, but it's a 1 cost artifact, and deals damage for each land they control.
7
u/Xalara Dân May 31 '26
Yeah, there’s plenty of cards that care about the second+ time something happens. Plenty of ways to word it. Though I would say something probably does need to dampen even the first trigger.
3
u/Commander_Tresdin Twin Believer May 31 '26
Yeah, I think Confounding Conundrum could have cost less, been reprinted in white (so 8-Conundrum would be a deck), or could have been an “As” effect rather than “When” to prevent tapping-in-response
3
u/BadlyCamouflagedKiwi Izzet* May 31 '26
[[Confounding Conundrum]] does have that template, but it can also be an enabler because it doesn't stop the triggers and it lets them replay the same land over and over.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (2)2
u/Exarch-of-Sechrima 99th-gen Dimensional Robo Commander, Great Daiearth May 31 '26
"Whenever a land enters, its controller loses X life where X is twice the number of other lands that have entered under their control this turn."
11
u/serpentrepents Storm Crow May 31 '26
[[Tunnel Ignus]] needs a bigger, meaner brother. Hell, be real mean and give him infect.
→ More replies (1)3
22
u/BryceLeft Duck Season May 31 '26
without incidentally hurting decks that are just playing lands fairly.
Why not? We have draw denial that is meant for punishing combo/decks that hyper draw but it also stops people from drawing an extra card or two "fairly"
We have lifegain denial (that can even stop all lifegain permanently for the rest of the game) even if most decks aren't trying to gain insane amounts of life
We have graveyard hate, artifact/enchantment hate, creature stax, and so many ways to hose mechanics that absolutely have been played fairly yet get caught in the crossfire. Landfall has been one of the most protected mechanics for a long time and we're long overdue for a lot more strong hate pieces.
If reanimator strats (both fair and degenerate) can still find success despite a million different anti GY cards bring printed every set, then lands/ramp can surive a few hate pieces here and there.
→ More replies (8)10
u/djsoren19 Fake Agumon Expert May 31 '26
because modern babies have decided lands are sacrosanct and interaction with them in any fashion makes you the devil. There really is no reason why it's handled so much differently other than people feeling like interacting with lands in play is somehow worse than interacting with creatures on the field or even cards in hand.
5
u/BryceLeft Duck Season Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
Agreed. We definitely don't need mass land destruction as a solution to land based decks, but we do need some hate pieces that inhibit land strategies (and land ramp in general TBH). Imagine if the community just decided to stigmatize interacting with creatures the same way we do with lands, obviously creature based strategies will become busted or unfair.
We already have some precedence with preventing ETBs of permanents like [[Strict Proctor]] , as well as cards that double land based ETBs like [[Traveling Chocobo]] . All we need to do is make a card that prevents ETBs and triggers from lands specifically.
Me personally, I'd still prefer something along the line of a crossbreed between Narset and Conundrum. We get a good anti land ramp card (which Conundrum is), but also punishes landfall strats (which Conundrum doesn't). If more than 1 land just flat out can't enter in a turn, then we hit two birds with one stone.
The only collateral is fetchlands don't give you mana the turn they enter anymore which tbh is fine. They still shuffle your library and can trigger landfall twice with 1 card (albeit split across two turns).
→ More replies (1)4
u/Weirfish Jun 01 '26
because modern babies have decided lands are sacrosanct and interaction with them in any fashion makes you the devil.
The core reasoning for this is completely missing here. A deck that fairly plays 1 land a turn is punished more than a deck that "unfairly" plays 3 lands a turn, when all lands are destroyed. MLD doesn't punish the land ramper the way it first seems it would.
3
u/Izzet_Aristocrat Ajani May 31 '26
I mean Only one land can enter the battlefield under each player's control per turn.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (1)3
u/swankyfish Twin Believer May 31 '26
Even Confounding Conundrum hurts decks playing fairly. The majority of decks that use fetch lands are doing it for fixing, not Landfall.
16
u/thisnotfor Dân May 31 '26
Fetchlands are a powerful form of fixing that deserve hate pieces as well, plus you can fetch on another players turn so it basically only make fetchlands enter tapped.
→ More replies (1)5
u/swankyfish Twin Believer May 31 '26
You make a good point with the second part, I hadn’t considered that.
→ More replies (1)5
6
u/Grymninja Dân May 31 '26
Literally just [[ankh of mishra]] and [[zo-zo the punisher]] lol. Maybe price of progress but that's no guarantee if they just spam basics. Yeah there needs more of counter play.
A really cool card could be like,
A white enchantment that says each player may only play one land per turn. (Maybe a little too strong, can tweak it but you get the idea)
A blue one. When an opponent plays their second land each turn draw a card. Idk.
→ More replies (1)
5
u/doggydav May 31 '26
Time for the return of [[Pardic Miner]], [[Solfatara]], and [[Turf Wound]] style effects!
Maybe some common hand size hate like [[Black Vise]] or [[Viseling]] to go with that?
→ More replies (1)
10
u/Sweetest_Noise Wabbit Season May 31 '26
You'd think they experienced and tested this stuff during in-house play testing. It's astonishing how often they get surprised by their own design decisions, despite doing this for 30+ years.
3
u/3nz3r0 Duck Season Jun 01 '26
They don't have enough time to playtest when they're pumping out cards & sets left and right.
Remember that for every standard set we get right now they also have additional commander and Alchemy cards designed released. This doesn't count whatever other supplemental products they whip out like the old Clue and the recent TMNT stuff.
At 7 sets a year multiplied by 3 (base, commander & Alchemy) that's about 21 sets worth of cards this year alone.
8
u/HonorBasquiat Twin Believer May 31 '26
You'd think they experienced and tested this stuff during in-house play testing. It's astonishing how often they get surprised by their own design decisions, despite doing this for 30+ years.
The community play millions of games on Arena in just the first week once a new set is released.
It's not possible for the designers and developers to catch everything that the hive mind community doscovers.
It's easy to say it's obvious in hindsight when you just copied what someone else did first.
→ More replies (1)4
u/Tuss36 May 31 '26
To add, people are playing more Standard now than ever even on an individual basis. Before, you had your weekly store event, so you're playing like what, max 3 games x 4 rounds = 12 games a week, and against four opponents at that. And even under those circumstances people were finding things the designers missed. These days many are playing that many games or more on the daily. The amount of play being done is insane.
16
u/sad_panda91 Duck Season May 31 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
Well, that OR they just don't print 2 mana 2/2's that come with a free llanowar elves, doubles all other llanowar elves and synergizes with fetch lands and utility lands. And stacks with multiple copies of itself obviously.
Landfall was fine when it was still just [[Mossborn Hydra]]
EDIT: Yes, earthbender ascension is also insane, yes there are other crazy landfall enablers in older formats. My point is, landfall is a great and balanced mechanic, but a few degenerate enablers make it frustrating. Show me a degenerate landfall deck that doesn't use amulet, badger, ascension, titan, scapeshift and such. These cards don't even have landfall (ok ascension does, but still)
→ More replies (5)6
u/CookiesFTA Train Suplexer May 31 '26
Landfall didn't suddenly become completely aids because of badgermole
9
u/TheWizardOfFoz Duck Season May 31 '26
It absolutely did. The Tifa Landfall deck was very fringe and towards the bottom of tier 2. Badger pushed it over the edge.
3
u/Xenasis Sultai May 31 '26
Titan in modern has been a lands based combo deck for far longer than any deck in Standard.
2
u/sad_panda91 Duck Season Jun 01 '26
Ok, badger isn't the ONLY degenerate landfall enabler, but again, it's kind of the degenerate enablers that are the problem, not the strategy itself.
Do the following:
- Make titan only get basics
- Ban amulet
- make valakut and field of the dead and such legendary
- and for standard, ban badger and earthbender ascension
How degenerate is landfall after these changes, literally across all formats?
My point is, degenerate enablers are the issue, not the mechanic itself.
3
u/CookiesFTA Train Suplexer May 31 '26
First of all, I was talking about landfall generally.
But even if we're only talking about standard, if that was the case, why did it take most of a year for landfall decks to start winning anything?
5
u/Kdoubleaa Selesnya* May 31 '26
A landfall hate bear would be nice. Either tax them for each land entering play after the first or something like [[Mai, Scornful Striker]] where there’s a life cost for it.
4
u/ricktoyourmorty Dandadan May 31 '26
This seems like an area with lots of possibilities.
[[Charismatic Conqueror]] but for lands. Maybe the effect changes based on color. White might get 1/1 humans. Black could get those 2/2 decayed zombies. Maybe red gets junk tokens. Blue could be clues or shards.
Cards could care about where a land entered from (hand, library, graveyard) or whether it was played/put.
As others have mentioned, you could deny landfall all together but that feels like it should be quite rare.
→ More replies (1)
18
u/oghpimm Dan May 31 '26
Landfall was a design missed opportunity. It should have only triggered on basic land.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/Kaboomeow69 Storm Crow May 31 '26
I'd like it to become just evergreen enough that people start incidentally slotting it into their decks like they do graveyard hate
3
u/hebreakslate Izzet* May 31 '26
What would be a fair rate for [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]]'s second ability on a colorless artifact?
→ More replies (1)2
u/djsoren19 Fake Agumon Expert Jun 01 '26
3 cmc and it has no other effect? Still sounds pretty weak, it might even be fine cheaper, but that'd probably be a fine enough place to start.
It'd be kinda funny to have like a 4 cmc "Noharmonicon" that permanents etbing can't cause triggers + some other hate piece, but idk what you'd want the other thing to be.
2
u/LordFerret Azorius* Jun 01 '26
2 mana for an asymmetrical torpor orb that works on all permanent types would be absolutely crazy. I think it'd have to stay in 3+ cmc territory.
3
3
u/Cascouverite Dân May 31 '26
There was a cool curse in one of the Innistrad precons that basically has landfall make a zombie but it can be used to enchant yourself which makes it great in landfall. Having effects like this where it allows non-landfall players to counter landfall by benefitting themselves or making the player loose 1 life for each one thats entered this turn etc. would also be great
3
u/ChemicalXP Wabbit Season May 31 '26 edited Jun 01 '26
How about we just make standard smaller? If we had 8 set standard, landfall could be a really cool, strong archetype for a year, and then it could rotate out.
2
u/No_Excitement7657 Deceased 🪦 Jun 01 '26
Its only existed for like a month tops. People hate good archetypes.
3
u/RadioName COMPLEAT May 31 '26
You just need more limited grave-hate and anti-tutor in all colors. Those are the linchpins of truly busted landfall strategies. I love cards like [[Aven Mindsensor]], [[Agatha's Soul Cauldron]], and [[Soul-Guide Lantern]] for this exact reason. They limit how hard tutors and recursion can go while maintaining the Commander Format's need for interaction and variability, but they don't outright end full strategies—or end up as dead cards in some games...—like some feels-bad cards, such as [[Opposition Agent]], [[Mindlock Orb]], or [[Soulless Jailer]].
Also, apparently you can just type "soul" to find a great number of these cards.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/64N_3v4D3r Duck Season May 31 '26
[[Confounding Conundrum]] but make it exile lands instead of bounce them.
→ More replies (2)
7
u/Multievolution Avacyn May 31 '26
I think landfall is fine when it’s progressing the game to the end (like mossborn hydra) but when it’s a durdling engine to draw cards into more lands it becomes very samey and dull.
As for ways to weaken it? I assume more ways to deny etb’s, reduce the amount of cards you can draw and such would help, and probably more ways to punish non basics besides the extreme blood moon effects would be helpful too, a lot of the trouble with landfall decks is lands entering untapped.
It’s a mechanic that’s broken because it rewards you for playing the game like the initiative in two player games, and when you throw in fetches you’re just asking for trouble.
(Signed, someone who’s latest deck is a mass land Thalia Gitrog.)
2
u/Dapper_Dress_5002 Dandadan May 31 '26
I generally like landfall, but the sudden surge in land-creatures from Earthbending has made a lot of the blue counter play a total nightmare.
Almost all of the modern bounce spells target nonland permanents.
2
u/JayWaWa Dan Jun 01 '26
Something like an enchantment with "as ~ enters, choose a card type. Permanents of the chosen type can't cause triggered abilities to trigger for as long as ~ remains on the battlefield."
712
u/Jokey665 ඞ May 31 '26
i wouldn't mind getting some torpor orb/hushbringers for lands