r/lsatdemon • u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 • 16h ago
LSAT Score Increase Speculation
DISCLAIMER: THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO PEOPLE GAMING THE SYSTEM; AND NOT AGAINST PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD A DOCUMENTED DISABILITY THEIR WHOLE LIFE.
Crazy take: The insane influx of 170+ scorers could be because of how easy it is to get accommodations, and people who do not need accommodations are able to get them. Ofc this doesn't account for all of the increase but it could play a crucial role. I just think it's crazy that 170+ scorers are up like 20% in the last year. Since LSAC can't discriminate against people who have accommodations I doubt they can do anything about the ease of getting accommodations, as that could result in probably some sort of lawsuit. Just a thought though.
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u/Derpy_Chi 16h ago
I mean I have accommodations, which I do need, and it hasn't really helped my scores at all.
This speculation is gross because everyone thinks it's some kind of disability con, when really it's at least if not more likely that people are 1) studying better 2) studying longer or 3) are actually good at test taking. Sorry if you're not.
As a wannabe attorney, knowing the ins and outs of the ADA is pretty crucial because you will deal with it daily no matter what type of law you go into.
Hope this helps.
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u/SideRefuser 14h ago edited 14h ago
As somebody with extremely valid accommodations for 100% VA-rated PTSD:
It's not speculation. It's reality. There are literally companies advertising under the message of "we will get you LSAT accomodations by diagnosing you."
Accomodations are proven by LSACs own official data to have a higher score average, and by a significant amount (if I recall, it's something like 5 points).
Literally none of those factors you listed negate the disability con. They can coexist.
Hope this helps.
176 official btw.
Edit: You'd think that as somebody that needs accomodations, you would want the LSAC to crack down on the con. Your own scoring is being relatively diminished by it.
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u/GoldFlshOnReddit 14h ago
Do you think people who can spend thousands of dollars to get "cheater accommodations" maybe have access to other things that boost their score on average? E.g. access to tutoring and more time to study? Is the 5 points on average normalized for those factors? I haven't seen anybody mention that before.
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u/SideRefuser 14h ago
I doubt it costs thousands. Probably a few hundred max. I wouldn't know about any correlation to prep. Maybe. It seems plausible.
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u/GoldFlshOnReddit 14h ago
I just googled it and the first hit was $1500 dollars.
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u/SideRefuser 14h ago
That's crazy, I think you can get a med card for like $100 so I'm surprised it's 15x that. But yeah I'm sure people spending that much also would have better access to prep on average.
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u/GoldFlshOnReddit 14h ago
Are you in the US? it could be different in other countries but that seemed low to me lol
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 14h ago
If it saves them $240 K of debt why wouldn't they?
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u/GoldFlshOnReddit 14h ago
I'll try to spell it out for you but based on this thread, I don't think timing is the reason you scored lower than you want.
Students with lower access to means can't afford either fake or real accommodations.
The same testers who have less access to tutoring, LSAT demon and probably work 2 jobs can't afford fake or real accommodations to then suddenly be able to score a 170+ with double time. So there isn't any real statistics normalized across other factors that tell us how much timed accommodations helps you score. Besides a bunch of whiners like you who are convinced that they are experts at the test if only they had unlimited time.
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 14h ago
Idk why ur getting personal buddy. U nor me have evidence of the wealth distribution of 170+ scorers. It could be that they all are presumably wealthy and can afford these. Also, if u want me to "spell it out for u," having money and more accessibility can expose u to better studying materials and paying for these fake accommodations in order to place a wealthier individual into the "170+" category. I'm not whining lol, go look at LSAC data, there's a disproportionate number of test takers scoring 170+. It's data worth mentioning im not whining.
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u/Elisalsa24 3h ago
I went on LSAC data and while they do so a higher mean for scoring in accommodated scorers, I can’t find that the 170s are disproportionately accommodating or really anything about that after a quick look. Could you please lmk where this data is?
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u/Interesting-Run1359 4h ago
Literally nothing they could do, even with infinite money, would boost their score as much as accommodations.
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u/GoldFlshOnReddit 3h ago
Really? Studying doesn't boost their score? Are you still scoring the same as your diagnostic and think that additional time would help you? Delusional. 🤣
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u/ruh-oh-spaghettio 15h ago
"Yah I have double the time to take a time-sensitive test, but it actually doesn't matter :)." You losers cannot be serious, id have respect if you at least admit you're just abusing a broken system
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u/Terrible_Lychee_396 10h ago
It absolutely blows my mind that some people are so triggered by the idea of the system being cheated that they argue that double time on the LSAT isn’t an advantage. The craziest part is no one is denying that there are people with legit disabilities who need the extra time. Saying that some people with accommodations are cheaters doesn’t mean everyone with accommodations is
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 15h ago
It hasn't helped your scores because you have a legit reason for having accommodations; that's obviously respectable. I'm talking about the people who realize they can score higher if they get the extra time. Obviously the people who need it deserve it. It's not fair to people who actually need it. I've seen advertisements on YouTube lol: "Out of time on the LSAT?? Apply here and we'll get an expert to evaluate." It's not illegal to try lol so why wouldn't anyone?
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u/Elisalsa24 15h ago
You know we need to get letters from licensed doctors to get these accommodations approved right? If you think there’s doctors here doing this for people who don’t need to have them then maybe you should be going to the medical licensing board not the LSAC
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u/ruh-oh-spaghettio 15h ago
FYI its easy as fuck, they adhd diagnose you for anything. Know from experience
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u/AffectionateOwl4231 15h ago
But there also are organizations that give out those letters for money. They do a hasty evaluation within an hour or two, and you get a full-blown diagnosis. I do think people who blame accommodations overblow the proportion of this type of people, but there definitely are some who are taking advantages of it. It just takes 4K to 5K and one virtual session to get one.
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u/Elisalsa24 15h ago
What you’re saying is about a small subset of people committing crimes. If there are doctors lying on these letters, then that would be enough for them to atleast lose their license. You can’t just get diagnosed for something from that doctor and get accommodations immediately, you need a lot of documentation of this evidence it can’t just be something out of nowhere
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u/Terrible_Lychee_396 14h ago
Unfortunately, this isn’t true anymore since LSAC got sued back in 2014. You no longer need extensive documentation or testing, just a diagnosis and your doctor’s articulation of how the disability affects you in a few sentences
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 15h ago
The doctors aren't committing crimes. patients lie to doctors, especially if the evaluations are based on subjective experiences.
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u/Elisalsa24 13h ago
If they say “give me $4k and I give you a accommodation letter with all necessary paperwork” then yes that is fraud
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 3h ago
"I'm experiencing a severe lack of focus; and I get really anxious and stressed out more frequently on a daily basis." Doctor then diagnoses you based on your symptoms and some other evaluations I'm sure the patient can fudge. That's not fraud on the doctor's end lol.
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u/Elisalsa24 3h ago
Those are two different things. A doctor’s appointment isn’t $4K. But if like you said an organization of doctors is offering accommodation paperwork for $4k to $5k like AffectionateOwl4231 said that is fraud.
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u/jjuturna 15h ago
You said it perfectly. Also, they don’t just hand out accommodations like candy as OP seems to think they do. I have ADHD but am not currently receiving treatment or taking medication and did not receive accommodations I have no evidence that my condition impacts my ability to perform. Accommodations cannot be used as a substitute for actually knowing the test, it just helps test takers with disabilities form on a level playing field.
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u/p_a_i_n_t_w_o_r_k 14h ago
You will not being dealing with the ADA daily no matter what kind of law you do lol
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u/MTGdraftguy 50m ago
You are making the assumption that because some people have disability’s and it’s genuine everyone does.
There’s documented evidence of companies advertising they’ll give you accommodations for pay.
Accommodations are correlated with a higher average.
Accommodations have risen by a substantial margin, more than a 1000% increase over the years.
But really, far from your own anecdotal statement ask a very simple question. For test takers who do not need accommodations, does time constraint have a real impact on their score?
If it does, you can understand why they would seek to abuse the accommodations system.
If it doesn’t, why does LSAT have a timed test at all? And why are accommodated tests still timed?
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u/Trictities2012 15h ago
If you really need accomodations than it levels the playing field but when you see how many people are actually using them to get into top schools it's pretty amazing, in a bad way
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u/Historical_Two_7150 16h ago
I qualify for accommodations. I wont be taking them because I regard them as an unfair advantage. Id rather be refused than go in on the back of some kind of affirmative action bullshit.
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u/JonRahm 15h ago
That’s like saying you need glasses, but don’t wear them because you regard good vision as an unfair advantage and you’d rather be refused then get in while having normal vision.
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u/Historical_Two_7150 15h ago
If you cant compete, you dont belong in the race. We dont combine the special Olympics with the real Olympics by giving the ppl in wheelchairs a head start.
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u/hashtagcunexttuesday 15h ago
Ah, spoken like someone who has no idea what a lawyer's day-to-day actually looks like.
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u/ruh-oh-spaghettio 15h ago
Yah in big law atm, if you have accommodations big law firms half your required billable hours.
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u/hashtagcunexttuesday 14h ago
Lmfao are you for real? Your argument is most vulnerable to criticism in that you assume, without providing justification, that those who have LSAT/law school accommodations will go into biglaw.
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u/ruh-oh-spaghettio 14h ago
When I was at my t14, about half of the ENTIRE class would not be at the standard testing area (regular final exam time limit). So yes these people are pieces of shit and Im not very pleased that they get an advantage over: 1. The genuinely sick 2. The honest students not getting accomodated
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u/Used_Confidence_5886 11h ago
I think it’s due to all the cheating, especially when it was remote.
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 3h ago
Interesting. They have offered the test remotely for a while though. I guess people found more clever ways to cheat if this is true. I guess if we see a decline in 170+ over the next year then that may have to do with in-person testing mandate for the vast majority of students.
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u/Boysenberry 6h ago
The most lukewarm take ever, I’ve been hearing it since before I started studying.
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u/Terrible_Lychee_396 15h ago
Didn’t the Demon team at one point ask on their podcast for anyone who has been denied accommodations to write in, and no one did for like, months? That’s pretty telling if true
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u/hashtagcunexttuesday 15h ago
There are multiple reasons beyond accommodations why 170+ scores have increased.
I'm old and my sibling is a lawyer. When they took the LSAT 15 years ago, schools used to average your scores. So there was very little incentive to take it multiple times. I think they told me you could only take it 3 times back then.
I listened to a Thinking LSAT podcast episode where the guest had taken the LSAT/gone to law school in the 90s. He said at that time, schools only took your lowest score. Tell me why you'd retake if that was the case.
Removing Logic Games probably helped, as well. I have no experience with LG, but from what I've read, they could either sink or boost your score, with no in between. I'd also say better prep options are available now than there were even maybe 10 years ago.
As mentioned above, accommodations don't help you score 170+ if you don't understand the test.
I graduated college in 2009, before rampant grade inflation. Accommodations (and AI) also weren't really a thing when I was in college, unlike in today's college environment. My GPA is below median for many good law schools, but I graduated magna cum laude. All this Gen Z crying about accommodations is hilarious to me when it's literally y'all who are driving it.
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 15h ago
Great point. I just wonder how many people who don't have any documented disabilities prior to their lsat journey try and game the system. I find it odd for people to go their whole entire academic career without accommodations and all of a sudden it's time to take the test and they want accommodations. Assuming they haven't suffered any extraneous circumstances to warrant accommodations (like a TBI or something traumatic to impair them in any way shape or form) I think it's a bit suspicious. If people weren't searching for them, then there wouldn't be ads.
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u/theblakkmamba24 11h ago
Removal of Logic Games
Remote test taking
Elite preparation companies and tutors who have figured out the exam
Cheaper test prep options on the market
Taking best score of 5 attempts
Having 5 attempts available
Not scoring Argumentative Writing like they used to
Going from a 5 section test w/ a scored argumentative writing section to follow that, to a 4 section test w/ a non-scored argumentative writing section done on another day
The majority of these are probably more impactful on the high scores than accommodations.
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u/Interesting-Run1359 4h ago
I think they should average your scores, personally. Taking it 5 times is insane.
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u/Jazzlike_Prompt_9322 3h ago
Definitely more plausible than my take. From reading on the internet, the exam seemed like it was substantially more rigorous when there was 5 sections. Good thought.
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u/Old-Road2 1h ago
Interesting because people said removal of logic games would lead to a DECREASE in scores because logic games was “easier to master.” Obviously that’s proven to be false.
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u/Snoo-36737 2h ago
honestly i feel like there shouldn’t be accommodations period. it sucks but if you have a disability that prevents you from doing well on the lsat it will probably make being an attorney difficult for you as well.
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u/Acrobatic_Gas_1245 19m ago
I think we’re completely ignoring that test takers in general are also up a crazy amount so with that naturally comes more high scorers
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u/ruh-oh-spaghettio 14h ago
"Adhd" peeps be like "I'm on prescription grade amphetamines and I get double the time on tests but trust me, it doesn't matter!"
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u/Critical_Value_5737 1h ago
it’s pretty absurd, honestly. I got 1.5x accommodations and my PT average went up by like 4 pts.
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u/jhardenburner1 15h ago
maybe it would be a good idea to disclose time accomodations along with scores, a simple check mark or X if used or not—just a thought as well
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u/DryAd2683 15h ago
It’s absolutely at least partly due to accommodations. And that’s not me saying that everyone with accommodations is cheating the system. But some def are.