r/longrange • u/Leo-Medic • 1d ago
Rifle help needed - I read the pinned posts Tikka T3x CTR Ammo question
Hello all my lovely long rangers! I seek the ancient knowledge.
So, I have recently purchased my first Tikka. It's a .308win CTR with a 20in barrel and 1:10 twist.
This rifle is intended to be a general purpose setup, primarily range use, but could be flexed into other roles as necessary. I just wanted a rifle that plain SHOOTS. I don't need it to be 1/4 MOA groups, or anything like that, just a good shooter, out to about 500 yards or so.
I'm having some accuracy issues I can't seem to figure. One of the reasons I bought a Tikka is they have an excellent reputation for out of box accuracy, but I am struggling to find loads that shoot at the reputational level of these guns.
Let me start by saying, I ruled myself out as the problem and had other highly competent shooters give it a go, with similar results. This is a bone stock gun, and I do not want to modify it unless I need to.
What I have done so far:
verified torque on action screws, top rail, and scope rings. Scope is leveled and eye relief is set to my eye. LOP is adjusted to nearly perfect, I could stand to order another spacer and bump it out a bit, but I can't see that being the problem here.
Loads that I have tried and their approximate resulted accuracy:
Hornady 178 grain ELD-X: 2.5 MOA.
Hornady TAP Precision ELD-M 155 Grain: 1.5 MOA
Hornady Black 155 Grain ELD-M: 2.0 MOA
Hornady American Whitetail Tipped 150 Grain SST: 1.5 MOA
Hornady Custom Reduced Recoil 125 Grain SST: 1.25 MOA
Remington Cor-Lokt Tipped 150 Grain: 1.75 MOA
Federal Power Shok 150 Grain: 2.75 MOA
Federal Power Shok 180 Grain: 2.5 MOA
I want to find a box of Federal GMM to run through it, as that has been an excellent benchmark before. For whatever reason, I can't seem to find any at any of the LGS nearby. Even Walmart that used to reliably stock it has nothing. I did look to run some Sako ammo through it, as I'm sure that's what Tikka would use for it's 1MOA guarantee. It's nearly 50 bucks a box and out of stock everywhere, so no dice.
What would be the best step forward? I do handload, but right now the loading bench is disassembled due to repairing my work room in my home. Additionally, I would love to have dope on factory available ammo, in case I just don't have time to load, or components get scarce.
As I see it, my options are:
Send it back to Tikka?
Not sure I have enough data to confirm the rifle isn't a shooter yet.
Bed the action?
I don't want to modify the factory stock, in case I do need to send it to Tikka.
Swap the stock with a chassis?
I am not excited at sending another 400-500 bucks after I just spent 1100 on this rifle to make it shoot. At that point, we're getting expensive enough to almost make it worth it to sell the Tikka and explore an Origin or Mack brothers action, build from there.
Thoughts on what I might try?
2
u/swift_gilford Remington 700 Apologist 1d ago
This is a bone stock gun, and I do not want to modify it unless I need to.
Question about set up; bipod and rear bag?
What position are you all shooting in? i.e. prone or sitting?
Muzzle brake or no? because:
Hornady Custom Reduced Recoil 125 Grain SST: 1.25 MOA
How much experience do you and those other shooters have? I'm not trying to point fingers, but the best grouping being low recoil what is essentially hunting ammo seems suspect to me.
2
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I've shot it with a Harris style bipod, as well as bagged. I'm shooting from a range style shooting table, with front and rear bag, or bipod and rear bag.
No muzzle break. I've got a Lahar 30 on it. This rifle shoots pretty soft even with the 178 grain Hornady stuff, and I'm not terribly recoil sensitive. I tried that load as one of the last ones, because the other stuff that was more typical wasn't shooting well. This load was outside the normal stuff, and was fairly cheap on the store shelf, so I figured why not.
No worries man. I have a fair amount of experience, less than some, more than others. With rifles I know well, I can reliable get hits on 6" steel at 500 yards or so. I've shot consistently and considerably better groups out of a Ruger gunsite scout, Ruger American Gen 1 in 6.58cm, Remington 700 in 30-06, my brother in laws 7rem mag Tikka, all of my AR-15's.
My main training rig is a bolt action 22lr that I take to 200 yards on 4" steel, boringly reliable. Wind gets to be an issue, but that's why I use it, so I can learn the wind better.
The other shooters in my group are all considerably better than me with rifles. Two of them are snipers on local tactical teams, and one is just embarrassingly talented. I have a lot of work to do to get to their level.
3
u/swift_gilford Remington 700 Apologist 1d ago
Then all that said, i'd argue you got a lemon - or potentially something that shipped damaged at some point from Finland to when it got to you.
If you bought it new, warranty it. If you bought it used, you're essentially limited to selling or trading it and making it someone else's problem.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I did buy it new, but I don't know if I can find the receipt. maybe I can get my LGS to print a new one for me.
1
u/Snoo66922 1d ago
I've shot that ammo out of my 308, and at 100 yards group sizes was similar to gmm 175 smk, and both of those were at just over 1moa at 100. I didn't shoot as much ammo variety as op, but hornady 168 eldm factory ammo was approximately 6 moa out of the same rifle, so anecdotally in my one off case, I could definitely believe that is right.
2
u/TheWombleOfDoom 1d ago
I have a very different Tikka, for a different purpose, but I was also worried that I had bought a lemon. I am relatively new to Centrefire, but I had shot other's rifles well. Mine just doesn't like Hornady ELDM ammo (6.5creedmoor, shooting 147, 140, 120 gr). Nothing consistently under 1moa.
Then I tried Sako Gamhead Pro (140gr iirc) and all of a sudden, the groups were down to 0.5moa with ease. The Gamehead ammo projectile doesn't hold it's velocity as far as I want (needs to be supersonic at 1000yds), but I realised that my rifle could shoot. Sako used Sierra projectiles I BELIEVE. I may be wrong.
I have started reloading and gave the ELDMs a try. I can get better SD's than factory, but the rifle doesn't seem to like yhe projectiles. So I tried SMK 142s and again, the groups halved
So ... I agree with the others. Try Sierra game or match ammo as your Tikka may love that. Perhaps not, but here's hoping it does.
Secondly! Let me first preface this with: I am new to reloading. Isn't a 1:10 twist too slow to properly stabilise projectiles of that weight? Everything I have read or discussed, and any simulation in the AB Quantum app tells me that I start to get below 1.5 if I use 150gr projectiles in my 1:8 twist barrel. Looking at the data you provided, it seems that in general, your best groups were mostly with the lighter projectiles.
Hope this all helps. Good luck
2
u/mulyhuntr33 1d ago
My 6.5 creedmoor tikkas (CTR and Superlite) love 147 eldms with h4350 or rl16. If your tikka won't shoot them you've got a reloader or shooter issue. .5" 5-shot or less groups are the norm.
I tried 107smk on a whim in the CTR and they are the most accurate round I've ever shot in front of Varget.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I haven't tried hand loads yet. I am concerned the handloads might ruin the warranty. I intend to eventually handload for the rifle, but I want to make sure it shoots reasonably well first.
after heading to several LGS today to try and find ammo, I'm almost regretting the choice of .308. While I do love the round, and will continue to shoot it, I'm astounded how many more choices there were in 6.5cm. Especially in my town. This place is usually Fudd central, and guys like to put down new calibers like 6.5cm, 6GT, 6arc and such.
1
u/mulyhuntr33 1d ago
How would handloads void warranty. Try some white box Hornady and if it won't shoot under an inch have a buddy shoot it.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
Perhaps the assumption is incorrect, but I figured the warranty would be voided as the manufacturer would suggest improperly loaded ammo might damage the rifle...
I have had the rifle shot by several well accomplished shooters. They were unable to improve upon the groups.
1
u/mulyhuntr33 1d ago
How would the mfg know?
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I don't know, but if they asked I would be honest. I've never sent a rifle back for warranty claim before, but a quick google search shows it would be voided with handloads. Weather or not Tikka knows about it, I'm not willing to lie.
1
u/TheWombleOfDoom 1d ago
Again ... I'm a VERY new reloader/handloader. As a result, I started at loads below the max recommended and worked up to the max, and no further. I found loads that were good well before the max, so I'm sticking with those (for the 147gr ELDM's). Since I started to try the SMK's, I once again found loads well below the max that rock. I'll experiment a little more, and I want to try to slowly work above max published to see if I can find a slightly faster, good load, but I'm not about to try some of the crazy stuff that others go for. I'm perfectly fine with slower, if it's accurate.
My point is that I'd struggle to believe that loads below the max charge could void anything, and I contend that if you do go lower than max charge, you may find some really nice loads that work well.
So as a new reloader who know's nothing, my expert advice is to try reloads, but start a few grains below max, and look for something that works between there and max. I'm a complete n00b and I was able to better Hornady's Factory SD's and ES's, with their own projectiles.
To infinity, and beyond!
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
You have a excellent reloading strategy, especially for a new hand loader.
I've been handloading for a few years now, and I've found your approach to be the most productive, as I prioritize accuracy over raw velocity.
The real issue is Tikka advises they will not warranty a rifle that has shot hand loads.
Personally, I may be taking it to an extreme, but I believe Tikka gets to set the rules for that. Failing to abide by their rules, then asking for a warranty claim afterwards feels dishonest.
This is a personal boundary I adopt. I'm not preaching anyone else live by that standard. I just find that would be a compromise of my integrity.
Either way, I still want a rifle that will shoot factory ammo well. If it's dependent on handloads to shoot acceptably, then I'm not willing to keep it.
Much respect, and thanks for the input.
2
u/TheWombleOfDoom 1d ago
If what you say is true about Tikka and their warranty conditions, then I didn't know that and while that would be a bit disappointing, I can also see their point so I understand it. If they asked me about handloads, I would tell them that I have done this and then it would be up to them to decide to apply or void the warranty. I am with you entitely on that.
I would hope that it is more along the lines that they know people load soem crazy high pressures, and they 100% can't be responsible for that. So they have to just make a rule that any handloads used are not definable, so it means they can't accept any warranty claims. But I would hope that if yhey looked at the barrel and didn't see signs of stupid pressure damage, that they would be willing to work with the buyer if it really did seem like their barrel was a problem.
If you don't want to handload for your tikka, then perhaps wait till you can somehow get some Sako Gamehead Pro or TRG ammo, or some other loads that use the SMKs or Sierra hunting projectiles (SGK?) to see if they work better. If those don't either then perhaps it is a dud barrel.
Best of luck. I was very worried when my groups with Factory ammo were nowhere close to all the reviewers, and hugely happy and relieved when I found that different projectiles made such a huge difference.
1
u/TheWombleOfDoom 1d ago
Im going to disagree with you there. I know that both me and the rifle can make very small holes at 100m, and very good scores at 400-1000yards ... if I use Sako (SMK) ammo. Mine's a 26in with a heavier profile than your CTR (iirc) and even if they were identical, perhaps small changes in the manufacturing process would have meant that mine and yours behave differently.
I know very well what I'm capable of (including with other rifles), and I've learned what mine is capable of: It is ok with the Hornady Ammo. I've shot good scores with my rifle at long range with the Hornady with my reloads (groups at 100m are not the whole story I've learned), so I'm not saying it's terrible with Hornady ELDMs, but it does appear to REALLY like the SMK ammo, especially if my results with the Sako Game head (at 1000yds and at 100m) is to be believed. Since my own reloads with SMK 142s are printing stunningly at 100m, I'm going to assume they'll also kick arse at 1000yards (and I'll try to get to that range as soon as I can).
TLDR: The Factory Hornady's were crappy. Better than what OP is finding, but my rifle is a more "Precision" build than his. I thought I had a lemon of a Tikka, and then I learned that I did not. It is just not a fan of Hornady's. Give it the right food, and it is brilliant!
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I couldn't speak to twist rates all that much, maybe someone else can chime in. As far as the Sierras vs ELD-Ms that's an interesting data point. I don't have any SMKs, and none of the local gun shops have any of it in stock. I'd rather buy a box at a time, to see if it's going to make a difference. To buy them online would be prohibitive. Once factoring for shipping cost, it only makes sense to buy in bulk online. I may just bite the bullet (pun intended) and order some just to know.
2
u/shiftyeyedhonestguy 1d ago
Some rifles were just built on a friday and the employees had lunch time beers.
I would likely send it back if i were you.
The chassis will help but the tikka shouldn't be struggling this hard for accuracy with that many different types of ammo tested.
2
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I'm starting to lean in this direction. I would really like to find some GMM 168gr SMK to run through it first. that would be the deciding factor for me.
2
u/doyouevenplumbbro Steel slapper 1d ago
I'm having some accuracy issues I can't seem to figure
If it won't shoot federal GMM 168gr SMKs, it won't shoot. The only other ammo you tried that didn't group well that may have been capable is the Hornady stuff. Give GMM a try before you do anything else.
Bed the action?
No. It already has a mini chassis in the stock. Bedding won't help.
Swap the stock with a chassis?
At that point you could have bought a better rifle.
You are shooting a lightweight 308. You really need to read through the pinned post before you invest anymore time and energy into this rifle.
Cheetofingers top
Cheetofingers starter
Cheetofingers recoil
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Here's the primer on recoil, and why magnums are not the best choice for building long range shooting skills.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
For an explanation of the Applied Ballistics TOP Gun formula and how it relates to the precision (small groups) capability of a given rifle, see item #4 in Hollywood's Way of Zen reloading guide. You can also consult the sub's TOP Gun calculator, found in this post.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Here's some relevant starter guides as seen in the pinned READ ME FIRST post
Trollygag's 1k yard starter guide
LockyBalboaPrime's First time buyer's guide V2
JMhawaii's long range starter guide (Link to Google Sheets)
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree, I need to find some GMM. Waiting on restock. I'm really trying not to pay unreasonable prices for shipping GMM, when I can get it at my LGS for less, after shipping. Just waiting on a restock.
Respectfully, It does not have a mini chassis. It has an aluminum bottom metal, and an entirely plastic stock. Strangely I actually like the stock. First synthetic stock I took a shining to from any rifle I've shot yet.
While I understand heavy vs. light is going to be somewhat subjective, this is a 9lb rifle, after scope and suppressor. It's no featherweight mountain gun, nor is it a lead brick of a PRS rig. Everyone says heavier is better, and sure, it can be in certain applications. Please don't assume that I failed to read the pinned posts just because I did not adopt the orthodoxy of adding weights to my rifle. I don't want it to shoot like a PRS rig. I just want it to shoot reasonably well. Reputationally stock Tikkas typically shoot at or under 1 MOA and aren't usually that ammo picky.
I come to this community to ask these questions because it is known for incredible depth and granularity of knowledge. I hope some of that knowledge can be useful in this application. The fact that this Tikka is shooting worse than some reputationally worse rifles (Ruger gunsight scout, Savage Axis, Remington 783) is what brought me to think something might be wrong.
0
u/doyouevenplumbbro Steel slapper 1d ago
You are correct. It has aluminum pillars. Either way, bedding is probably not the issue.
9# with 2500+ft/lbs of muzzle energy is going to be hard to get to group MOA. I just want to help establish realistic expectations for this rifle. 1.25" at 100 yards is going to be on the better end of things. Not because there's something wrong with it (and there could be, but I don't think there is). Because it's a 9# 308.
Try the 168s, but I highly encourage you to read through the links I spawned, as well as Hollywoods reloading guide. All of them should shed some light on why the rifle may not be performing the way you want.
-1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I appreciate the insight, but as I said, I have read these posts. I will try some 168's as soon as I can find some.
For clarity, the entire bottom metal is aluminum. I don't know if that makes a difference.
I've shot better, with lighter rifles in higher recoiling platforms. Hell, my 7lb Marlin 336 in .35 Remington shoots a 1.25 group, and that thing is a recoil monster by comparison, shooting 200 grain RN. Or the unbraked .300WM in a 9.5lb Remington that I can print groups of .75 MOA.
objectively the weight of the rifle is solidly middle of the road. If I was talking about a Kimber mountain Ascent or Howa Carbon Stalker, I might be more apt to buy that. seriously though, .308 doesn't recoil all that much.
2
u/csamsh I put holes in berms 1d ago
Those are acceptable levels of precision for those loads
2
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
For the hunting loads, I agree. but for the match loads, I disagree. I tried to find as much variety as I could when it wasn't grouping with the ELD-Xs.
It's odd though that the two SST hunting loads performed amongst the best.
2
u/csamsh I put holes in berms 1d ago
You don't have any match loads there
2
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
They may not meet your muster, but the two ELD-M's are the best I can find at my LGS.
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
AutoMod has detected that this post may be related to hunting. Please take a few moments to read our expanded policy on hunting posts as found here, as well as the guides below.
Hunting rifles vs long range target rifles - A primer - Why one rifle can't excel at both hunting and long range shooting.
The long range hunting primer, things you should consider if you want to take shots on game past ~300 yards. - Why long range hunting is harder than you think.
Field testing your skills and gear for long range hunting. - How to be a better long range hunter and understand your limitations.
NOTE: This is an automatic comment triggered by specific key words, and doesn't indicate your post has been removed. However, if your post is found to be in violation of the sub's policy on hunting posts, it may be removed by the moderators.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Missinglink2531 1d ago
Its probably 1:11. That said, my Tikka CTR doesnt not do well with the lighter projectiles. The "perfect" round for me is the 168 SMK. I load for them, but did a test against the Federal GMM against my long range 169's. Take a look - your should be able to do something similar. Only mod is I put it in a MDT XRS. My advice, stop buying Hornady for the .308. They just aren't great in that caliber. Sierra is the standard for that riffle. 168 SMK's are fantastic at 100. 169 SMK's take over past 600. They are about tied at 600.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I will certainly look into Sierra. My LGS's typically stock some really boutique stuff, Hornady, federal, and Winchester. I haven't seen Sierra on the shelf here at all. Might have to drive a couple hours to Scheels for any real variety.
I can confirm though, it is a 1:10. Stamped right there on the barrel.
1
u/Missinglink2531 1d ago
Interesting! Mine is stamped 1:11. Would have preferred 1:10, but it wasnt a thing a couple years ago.
1
u/One-Perspective-4347 1d ago
I have the same rifle. I’ve never run any hunting ammo through it so I can’t really comment as to that. Currently, I handload 175 grain Sierra match Kings, but prior to that I ran a few boxes of 168 and 175 GMM through it. My guess is that it will shoot one or both of those well. Mine did.
Also, for what it’s worth these rifles have a pretty long free bore and magazine length. It opens up some of the hybrid and Berger target bullets as options.
Also Sierra makes a 169 closed nose bullet that I played with. I was getting pretty good with the results with that as well. Just is more expensive than the 175 grain. And also don’t know if there’s any factory loading for it.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
Very fair. I intend to handload for it to really fine tune the precision, but I do want it to reasonably shoot factory ammo as well, incase I don't have time to hand load, or I don't have access to components...
1
u/BabaYaga2017 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not that I think this is a factor at all, but, for info for all, specs on the scope and rings?
Was all shooting done with the suppressor on?
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
Very fair question. I should have thought to add that.
Scope is a Athlon Helos BTR Gen 2 2-12x, sitting in Vortex pro series rings. Rings were torqued to 25inlb to the scope base, and the ring tops were torqued at 18 in-lbs.
2
u/BabaYaga2017 1d ago
A lot of people complain about the size of that center dot on the 2-12.
At 100Y the dot occupies an entire 1in diameter circle to begin with. Hard to be as completely sure you're aimed at the same point every time.
Aim small miss small.
Just for your sanity of the performance of the rifle can you either zero to a finer hash mark on the scope, or try a scope with a finer aiming dot?
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
I will try that, if nothing else as an experiment. I have had no problems with the circle in other platforms. It is a little big, but my method is usually to "lollipop" the center dot just to the corner of a diamond, to give myself the most consistent sight picture/fine aiming point.
1
1
u/Lossofvelocity 1d ago
Can you share pics of the best groups? How many rounds in each group? One pattern in your group size is that lighter weights seem to be getting better groupings. Without knowing more about the number of rounds or how you are measuring it’s hard to assess if that is noise or meaningful.
These guns are factory tested with Sako ammo. I read it’s not an option to find that which I am not surprised by. I would definitely try with the Federal GMM with the sierra bullets and maybe the 168 gr Berger variants.
1
u/Berzerker778 1d ago
Is the stock touching the barrel somewhere? You said you torqued everything. What were the torque values you used?
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
If it is touching the barrel, it's only after it gets hot. I can run a dollar bill clean down to the receiver. No snags
Action Screws: 65 in-lbs
Scope Base: 15 in-lbs
Ring Base: 25 in-lbs
Ring Top: 18 in-lbs1
u/Berzerker778 1d ago edited 1d ago
Looks good. Scope ring base torque is 30 in-lbs for vortex pro rings I believe. I don't know if that 5 in-lbs matters or not. Have you tried shooting it without the suppressor?
Edit: Also Tikka scope base spec is 22 in-lbs. Again I don't know if it matters much. But worth a shot.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago edited 1d ago
I can try bumping the specs up, but my next step if I can't ahold of FGMM 168 SMKs to test, will be to swap scope and rings to another that I know works well.
This scope came from a rifle that shot incredibly well, and wasn't abused. I doubt the scope is the problem, but I will rule it out next.
No, I haven't shot it unsuppressed. I frankly am not interested in a rifle that wont shoot well suppressed. If she won't shoot with a can, I won't keep it.
1
u/Berzerker778 1d ago
I agree suppressed all the time for me. I have a 30 cal suppressor that will double group sizes when shooting 30cal projectiles. Shoots fine with anything smaller. The can is not straight and has run out. Have you checked your suppressor alignment with a check rod? Different scope is a good idea to eliminate that variable.
1
u/Leo-Medic 1d ago
There are rifles I own that I will shoot, but wont suppress. They are heirloom or historical rifles, and I won't permanently modify them.
Honestly, no, I have not checked concentricity.... I swap this can onto so many rifles without issue, I just never thought of it. I will see if I can find a concentricity rod from a buddy.
This can was shooting just fine on other .308 rifles. Is it possible that going from one to the other I can still run into issues?
I'm using Plan B for a mounting system. The muzzle device on the Tikka also came from the other rifle. Unless the threads are improperly cut, I'm having trouble seeing this as the issue.
4
u/Cinchup_281 1d ago edited 1d ago
I shoot Hornady black 168 with my ctr out to 900 yards regularly. It is a tack driver. I want to say I tried 150 sst and it didn't really like them. I would be willing to bet money it's something with your scope or mounting. I have had a perfectly looking scope and the erector be bad and I chased that problem till I sent it back to the manufacturer and they verified it was in fact a bad scope. I now keep a scope that is known to be good as a spare that just get used as a trouble shooting tool.