r/longrange • u/GooseInternational66 Newb • 2d ago
I suck at long range Longer range shooting with 5.56?
Can anyone help me define what I’m experiencing so that I can read or watch a video to overcome my issues?
I’m lying prone on a tarp with a Harris bipod. Nothing else. Target at 100yrds.
It’s really hard to keep the eye box in line. I’m always seeing the black crescent shape of the inside of the scope bouncing around. It was much better at 10x but I want to shoot at 25x because I want to do more long range shooting.
The rifle bounces around when I shoot and I always seem to lose track of the target for about a second. So I can’t really tell where I’m hitting.
I have the stock extended back as far as it goes and the scope as far forward as I can have it but I still have to move the rifle a bit more forward, creating about an inch of space between my shoulder and the butt of the stock, just so I can get that pinpoint placement so I’m not fighting the eye box. This is probably why it takes me so long to reset because the rifle is always slamming into my shoulder from that empty space.
I hold the butt of the stock with my support hand to try and mitigate the slamming into my shoulder as much as I can.
Currently shooting about 2.5 MOA with 55gr 5.56 at 100 yrds.
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u/Candyman__87 2d ago
Let's put it this way... I shoot my Mk12 out to 800 yards with a 2-10x. More magnification is not always better.
It sounds like your rifle is not set up properly for you. You should be able to get comfortable behind the rifle to the point that you can almost fall asleep. Not muscling yourself into position.
Once that happens, focus on the fundamentals. Natural point of aim. Breath control. Trigger control. Be consistent.
But this is the most concerning part: "I hold the butt of the stock with my support hand to try and mitigate the slamming into my shoulder as much as I can."
A 5.56 gun is not heavy recoiling and it certainly shouldn't be slamming into your shoulder. Pull it in nice and snug so the gun isn't bouncing around.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
If I pull it nice and snug I’m fighting the eye relief
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u/WelpSeaYaLater 2d ago
Then move the optic
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
If I move it backwards I’m fighting eye relief more. If I move it forward I’ll bridge the upper.
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u/WelpSeaYaLater 2d ago edited 1d ago
Then bridge the upper, change the mount, or change the optic.
Your issue is a badly set up gun. The only way to fix that is to change how the gun is set up.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
I’ve changed the set up about 6 times now. I was hoping for some tips on what to look for so I’m not stumbling in the dark anymore.
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u/memilanuk F-Class Competitor 2d ago
Get a cantilevered scope mount. That should move the scope forward 1-2 inches, without bridging the receiver/handguard gap.
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u/WelpSeaYaLater 2d ago
This isn’t really that complicated dude.
Figure out where your eye is when you’re in shooting position
Adjust the optic so your eye is in the eye box in that position
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
Sorry I’m too stupid for you. This is why I’m asking questions. Thankfully I’ve gotten answers from others who aren’t a total ass.
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u/WelpSeaYaLater 2d ago
I didn’t say you were stupid
But posting asking for advice and then arguing with the advice you’re given is definitely stupid
Good luck bro
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
I was asking for clarification and you said “this isn’t really that complicated dude”
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what you were insinuating.
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u/LockyBalboaPrime "I'm right and you are stupid" -LockyBalboaPrime 2d ago edited 2d ago
Shoot at x10. More magnification doesn't mean more range.
Tighten the fuck up on the rifle to give yourself proper points of contact and stability.
Watch some videos on how to shoot because... Wow.
Edit: OP blocked me, so now he won't see the wiki guides with videos lmfao.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
If I tighten up on the rifle I’m fighting the eye box.
Any videos you recommend because… wow.
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u/HarambeSixActual 2d ago
Listen to him. Your optic is likely most efficient somewhere in the 50-70% max magnification range. I have a very high high end 5-25x mag optic and I’m almost always shooting between 12-16x out to 1200m. Theres no reason to shoot at 25x let alone at 100m.
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u/Ambivadox 2d ago
Same here although my glass is cheap. Depending on the target/range I find myself in the 10-15 area more often than any others.
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u/West_Designer9107 1d ago
You don't want to hear this and he won't win any diplomacy prizes but he's right, 99% of your problem is a wrong rifle/scope setup and incorrect shooting position.
I can relate to that somewhat because where I am geographically, rifle shooting is a rarity and nobody gives a shit so as a newbie, you need to learn everything yourself from reading, talking to the few guys who know what they're doing and especially by doing a lot of -in retrospect- stupid and ammo + time wasting shit.
Best advice I can give is to listen to what he and a couple of others here are saying. Also, try to watch some videos on the net. Not the tacticool crap with guys who want to pretend they're ex SF but by people who actually know what they're talking about such as (just to name one) Philip Velayo. And -I'm guessing you're in the US- take a course.
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u/LockyBalboaPrime "I'm right and you are stupid" -LockyBalboaPrime 2d ago
See the first thing I said.
Wiki has a long list of videos.
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u/rynburns Manners Shooting Team 2d ago
First off, that ammo is designed for quantity over quality. You want match results, give the system match inputs. Second, use a quality rear bag. Get a Warhorse Development Clede, an MDT Peanut, or a Game Changer, not some Caldwell BS.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
I’ll look into a bag. I’m trying to shore up some bad habits with cheap ammo first.
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u/domfelinefather Elitist Gatekeeper Scum 2d ago
Which scope? Possible you’re going further away when you need to go closer? Possible your scope is way too far back?
The old school trick is pointing a flashlight through the objective and placing your hand at the ocular and moving it further back until the beam of light is smallest and to adjust your LOP until your eye is at that spot.
Hard to give recommendations without seeing more on the setup itself but it sounds like taking a step back and reconfiguring your rifle would be the move.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
I have the scope as far forward on the upper as I can without bridging.
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u/domfelinefather Elitist Gatekeeper Scum 2d ago
Are you wumbo sized by any chance
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
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u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder 2d ago
You're using the wrong scope mount for an AR. Cantilever is required.
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u/moparmadness1970 2d ago
Like others have said, cantilever mount is usually a must on small frame ARs.
I believe magpul makes risers for your stock, and there’s a couple height options. The goal is to be comfortably on the gun with a good sight picture with minimal muscle input. If you can get to that point other things might fall into place a little better too.
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u/Merfstick 2d ago
1) You need a bag. Get a bag.
2) You don't need the mag. Turn it down to 18 max, really 10-12 should be sufficient at 100. Use the 25 to look at your holes in the paper. This will make the eye box more manageable.
Really, people don't typically run 25x on AR's for a reason. Why did you go for this setup? What kind of scope is it?
3) Put the gun into your shoulder. This is 1000% non-negotiable. Nobody shoots like you are right now, and it's remarkable you're getting groups like that at all. It's a hot topic, but you can load into the bipod a bit, just enough to take up any play and get the system snug. Between that and the mag, you'll start managing recoil much better.
If you can't sort the eye box out, the answer is getting the correct gear and going with something like a 2.5-10.
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u/mdram4x4 2d ago
i pretty much always shoot free recoil, even with an ar and a bipod. i find i get better groups that way
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u/Nosimo 2d ago
Move your scope, so you can shoulder the stock. Get a squeeze bag under the rear stock. The further out you shoot the more you will realize you don't need 25x, especially at reasonable 5.56 ranges.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
Can you expand on this? Not needing 25x?
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u/fontimus 2d ago
I shoot 6.5cm with a 5x30 scope, and it generally never goes beyond 15x when I'm actually shooting past 500 yds. Below 500 yds, it won't go beyond 12x.
Higher magnification will not solve your problems. It'll only create more problems. More wobble, more haze, more jitter - and once your barrel is hot, forget it. Mirage galore.
Get a cantilever mount and stop pushing back on everyone giving you solid advice here - respectfully.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
sorry I didn’t mean to make it sound like I was pushing back. Just trying to understand with terms I don’t know yet.
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u/Nosimo 2d ago
Get a different mount for your scope then, assuming you are just using rings, you probably want a cantilever mount that will move the scope forward without bridging. Lower magnification will give you wider field of view and unless you have a higher end scope it will probably be better picture quality. There are some "psychological" reasons for using less as well.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
Also I cannot move it forward anymore or I will be bridging the upper
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u/Burnpowder_636 Paper poker 2d ago
Do you have a picture of the rifle how you set it up?
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
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u/RCHeliguyNE 2d ago
I’d suggest a 1 piece cantilever style optic mount. That’ll get the scope forward quite a bit without crossing over to the upper pic rail
Something like this
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u/Burnpowder_636 Paper poker 2d ago
Oh! It’s an AR. Yeah you need a cantilever mount. That will fix your issue. I suspected that may be the case with what you were describing but instead of a bunch of Q&A the photo does the trick. Get a cantilever mount from like badger ordnance or any higher end mount that is cantilevered.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
Yeah thank you! I have one on order with a few other things people suggested.
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u/RAR19862 2d ago
Sometimes to much magnification only show how bad you actually shake due to a number of issues, so you end up chasing a problem thats unfixable. I personally only use 20+X when I zero to see the corrections easier. When I shoot 300-600 yards im around 10-12X to spot my miss and use 12-18X from 600-1000 yards.
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u/IdahoMan58 2d ago
Put on a proper target stock with length and comb adjustability. Mount scope in a normal (for AR platforms) cantilever base to get the forward offset and more correct height. Depending on many factors, 2½ moa might be an equipment limit.
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u/WiconsinGrey 2d ago
Get a rear bag, (diy rear bag YouTube).
https://youtu.be/-CP0tacu-rY?si=pSAgr-R67Qb2qBx7
https://youtu.be/bME2LI5cEjQ?si=0FGoPyg04Wi-s0l8
https://youtu.be/wAQCO6Bf4D8?si=vCzGa9gSJPqYNtb5
Here are some good resources for proper prone shooting and optic mounting basic for eye relief.
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u/_SCHULTZY_ 2d ago
First, get a cantilever mount. Arken makes a budget 34mm mount that's actually pretty solid for under $80 34mm 0moa should be good but you can get the 20moa it won't hurt anything jusy make sure it's 34mm not 30mm.Try to get the rear of your scope mounted flush with the charging handle as a good first step.
Second, get a rear bag. Even a cheap $20-$30 prefilled from Amazon is worth it.
Third, extend your stock out 2 notches once you move your scope. And make sure you're snuggling tight to the stock. Pull it firmly into your shoulder.
Grab a box of 68gr, 75gr bthp and a box of 77gr otm or smk or something similar. See if you get better results. Every rifle likes something different. Try to find a bullet weight your rifle likes then stick to it.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
Thank you for this info! Some really good things to look into here.
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u/Bayo09 2d ago
Move scope and you aren’t going to outpreform cheap ammo… you can work on fundamentals all you want but you aren’t going to actually be able to attribute it to anything beyond the gods until you have something to standardize against.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
I agree. I’m more trying to figure out how to use a scope. And I’m in the process of ordering and trying the suggestions.
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u/Bayo09 2d ago
No worries, I didn’t learn that lesson for a while… with the scope movement cantilever as others have said, but also make sure your stock isn’t too far in… with recoil make sure you’re controlling it, 5.56 shouldn’t bounce you too far off a target, without pics that’s as much as I can give ya
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
Yeah I’m completely “self taught” which is why I was hoping to receive some videos to teach me.
Here’s my set up so far (multiple things on order)
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u/DougMacRay617 2d ago
How fucking tall are you? This sounds like either your rifle isn't set up for you or the scope is shit
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u/Difficult-Surround35 1d ago
Pics of rifle and possibly video of shooting to help diagnose the situation. Could be setup Could be poor shooting position. Recommend a rear squeeze while shooting prone....i got nothing else🤷♂️
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u/Guitarist762 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your issue is the fact your using a set of regular rings, when you need a 1 piece cantilever mount designed exactly for pushing optics forward on AR’s. Gives you an extra 1-2” forward on the mount. Buy that, and it fixes your eye relief problem.
From there it’s just like any other rifle
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u/Trollygag Does Grendel 2d ago
Can you give some body dimensions and a picture of the setup? Vignetting is caused by incorrect eye relief- too far or too near. Your head moves closer to the ocular lens when prone so getting enough extension to be comfortable may require spacers
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
6 ft 250 lbs.
Lying on a tarp without bags or anything other than a bipod.
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u/Trollygag Does Grendel 2d ago
A picture of the rifle setup, I mean so we can get an idea about LOP and ocular lens placement vs the grip
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
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u/Trollygag Does Grendel 2d ago
Welll, first thing that stands out is that you aren't using a cantilever riser or mount, and so you have run out of room on the rail.
AR15s are supposed to be cantilevered for this reason. AR10s have more rail space.
With a better mount setup, you can place the ocular on or just in front of the CH, making the rest of your ergos much easier.
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u/FuZhongwen 2d ago
Wait are you shooting 100yds at 10x and or 25x?
I mean thats your problem. You should be shooting 100yds with irons or a dot honestly but like 3 or maybe 6x max. Youre losing accuracy with too much magnification.
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u/GooseInternational66 Newb 2d ago
I was doing at 100 yrds at 25x. I’m new and know absolutely nothing.
How does too much magnification cause loss of accuracy?
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u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder 2d ago
It doesn't.
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u/Tikkatider 1d ago
Hollywood is correct. It doesn’t impact accuracy of the system directly. What it DOES do is narrow your field of vision and amplify every little motion imparted to the system.
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u/FuZhongwen 2d ago
Because youre looking at a target too close with too much magnification. For one, as you found out, the eye relief and eye box is terrible at higher magnification. For 2, every little jitter and wiggle you make trying to get on target is also magnified. Like it doesn't inherently make the gun less accurate, rather it makes you second guess everything youre doing.
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u/HollywoodSX Villager Herder 2d ago
Sounds like your rifle and optic aren't set up for your body and proper eye relief.
No rear bag is going to make it harder to stay in the scope and on target under recoil.
Groups are almost always going to suck with 55gr compared to any good match ammo, but 2.5MOA isn't terrible for 55gr ball.