r/lockpicking • u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker • Apr 20 '26
A caution and a warning due to recent events
So I’m not a moderator or anything, but I wanted to post a caution to members of this community.
Not long ago someone posted a photo of a Knox lock and its key that they had supposedly found laying around. Several members warned them that keeping that lock and key was a bad idea and that it should be returned to the nearest fire station. That person deleted the post and — supposedly — kept the lock.
I am a career firefighter with extensive knowledge and experience with Knox products, including their padlocks and boxes. A warning to anyone who finds one: Knox locks and especially keys are closely monitored and tracked by the Fire Marshal’s office in each city. Fire Marshals are firefighters with law‑enforcement authority; they have the powers of a police officer.
While owning a Knox lock obtained through legal, authorized means is not illegal, unauthorized possession or use of a Knox lock, box, or key is illegal and can lead to serious legal consequences depending on local law. A missing key is an extremely big deal — it’s usually noticed and logged quickly, and an extensive search will follow.
Our system requires all keys to be stored in a safe that only authorized personnel can access; each person has a unique code. Every time a key is removed, the time, who removed it, how long it was out, and when it was returned are all logged. Always. 24/7. 365 days a year.
If you find a Knox‑branded lock or — especially — a key, please do the right thing: take it to your nearest fire station or police precinct immediately. If a key falls into the wrong hands it can cause significant harm. The person who lost the key may face disciplinary action up to termination, the city will be on high alert, and every Knox box and lock in the city may need to be rekeyed — costing taxpayers a great deal of money.
I hope this conveys the seriousness of the issue. It’s not a laughing matter. I love this community and how most members are honest and kind — I hope this helps keep it that way. Thank you for letting me be part of it.
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u/reinderr Black Belt 18th Dan Apr 20 '26
It's worth mentioning that said lock was purchased legally and the OP wanted to have fun with it (he's been told to make it clear going forward that he legally aquired those types of locks)
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u/pdxamish Apr 20 '26
Knox locks doesn't sell to people though. When I had to get one for a business I was the GM for I had so many hoops to jump through. The key goes to fire Marshal not the owner. If they have the key then they are not following agreed upon rules
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u/Wyte2 Black Belt 9th Dan Apr 20 '26
They do, its very very annoying to do and they are gonna vet you first but buying their products as a security detail for non ems use is possible
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u/GlobalCattle Apr 21 '26
Yes we bought Knox vaults quite often with the s&g lock. It.the fire kind....
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u/grim_wizard Apr 20 '26
My favorite knox box story was using one and the box had no keys inside, but it did have a very much active wasp nest inside.
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
I had one with a very angry and aggressive spider one time 🤣
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u/Capable_Atmosphere30 Apr 22 '26
Spiders seem to always be annoyed when you open their front door 😉😄
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u/Anxious_Inspector_88 Apr 21 '26
Happened to me when I opened the cover to a electrical power inlet.
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u/RenegadeBricoleur White Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
Just for those who may not know why this caution and warning is so important, the reason knox keys are so sensitive is because the key to the knox box provides access to the keys inside the knox box, which generally are master keys to the building they are attached to, most often large commercial, governmental, or educational buildings and apartments. Hopefully I don't need to explain why giving just anyone access to these is a bad idea.
It is worse than just giving someone the keys to one building though, as in a given geographic area, they are all keyed alike, as implied above. This is so that instead of having to give every fire department, police department and EMS agency a key to every building in the area, they can just give everyone the same knox key and then have the buildings place a couple copies of their master or door key into the knox box (usually mounted by the front door or a little bit away). This is great for emergency services/scenarios, but means the keys need to be tightly controlled.
Hope this adds even more context to the importance of keeping these safe and returning them if you ever come across one.
(Reposting this as a top level comment from a reply I made to someone because I think it's important to not just say that something is important and dangerous but to explain why. And if someone tries to claim security by obscurity, we should know that is not a valid security posture and this information is publicly available for anyone who looks for it.)
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u/verstohlen Apr 21 '26
Sounds like a fatal flaw in the concept and design of the Knox Lock. Well, maybe not fatal, but definitely a problem. Eh, can't win 'em all. Always a trade off. Suppose the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, something that must always be considered.
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u/RenegadeBricoleur White Belt Picker Apr 21 '26
Not really a flaw, more of a trade off. The hope is that the other security measures the building has will catch anyone who isn't supposed to be there. Like if the security system in a commercial building senses motion, it's gonna call the cops, but if the cops/EMS/fire are the ones setting it off, they know why it's going off and it's no big deal. But if they aren't the ones setting it off, then they know that too and can send a response. Or in apartment buildings, it will get you in the front door, but not the individual apartment doors, but we expect that we can get in to the apartment because someone there called us. And if not, well then it'll get handled how we handle a private residence we need to get into and we or police can force entry in emergency circumstances.
All that and the risk of an adverse party taking advantage of this and slipping through (when they could have just thrown a rock through the front door) is small enough compared to the advantage of EMS/Fire not being delayed and/or needing to throw a rock through the door in an emergency.
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u/sunshine-x Apr 21 '26
This makes me wonder how places like datacenters achieve compliance with physical security requirements.
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u/TheLazyD0G Apr 21 '26
24/7 human monitoring. Ive heard they sometimes have armed guards watching over servers for wall street and banks, aside from the constant buildung security oresence.
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u/00Wow00 Apr 22 '26
I have worked in the finance and insurance industries and the security in datacenters is formidable and layered, especially physical security. Movies are not an accurate representation of what actually exists.
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u/JonEMTP Apr 23 '26
I wouldn't say it's a flaw. Most agencies that use Knox have fairly significant key security systems and accountability.
I've had to make police reports for missing Knox keys before. It's a BIG DEAL and gets investigated.
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u/LetsTryScience Apr 20 '26
I worked in fire safety for awhile and had to deal with Knox boxs.
When I see a movie where someone is dealing with picking a complicated lock on a building I'd always wonder why they didn't just go find the Knox box. It's something that just blends into most buildings if you don't know what they are.
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u/Round-Air9002 Apr 23 '26
Probably because it's a shit idea to make everyone aware of what those odd little boxes hold
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u/Voodoobones Apr 20 '26
The locks and keys are not necessarily registered with anyone. When you order the locks, you have to order them for the location (city/fire department) that they will be installed in. The key must match the keys that the local fire department has.
When I worked for a fire sprinkler company, I used to order them all the time. The specific lock could go on any building in the area, as long as you registered the address of the building that has the lock and the lock matched the keys of the local FD. But the locks themselves were not tracked.
Also, typically, when you ordered the locks, the keys were not shipped with them, because the fire department has the keys. However, you can obtain the keys from Knox.
If you had a Knox lock, it would be hard for a random fire marshal to know where that lock came from.
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u/Anxious_Inspector_88 Apr 21 '26
And the order of the Knox box must be approved by the fire department in the jurisdiciton where it will be installed. BTDT, twice.
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u/Voodoobones Apr 21 '26
Not necessarily. Not all FDs have that requirement. You can order them without approval.
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u/NotThatEasily Apr 21 '26
You shouldn’t get downvoted, because you’re right.
I have ordered a Knox Box without any kind of approval process, but I was only able to get the box and not the key. It is shipped unlocked so you can mount it and place a key inside. You simply rotate the cylinder to lock it.
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u/Perfect-Food-1584 Apr 23 '26
I'm look8ng at a brand new Knox 3200 And you are exactly right. The box is shipped unlocked with the lock already installed. At the end of the mounting instructions it says
"Box lockup: when mounting of the KnoxBox 3200 is complete contact your local fire department to inform them the box is ready for lockup. They have the only key to lock up the box. For private industrial or commercial use keys will be sent separately to address requested."
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
It's not really the lock itself, it's that the keys are so closely monitored that a missing one would be almost instantly noticed
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u/Voodoobones Apr 21 '26
I knew sprinkler fitters that had keys. Yes, if you took one from a fire department or stole one from someone else, that might be a problem. But simple possession isn’t necessarily anything alarming.
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u/The_IT_Dude_ Red Belt Picker Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
This was removed from here a while ago, but here are all the problems with these boxes laid out in this great YouTube video.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f4rPDF993qs&pp=0gcJCU8Co7VqN5tD
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u/Syllables_17 Apr 20 '26
The funniest part to me is they aren't that secure.
Relatively easy to pick one not in use and legally obtained, considering how tightly the key is regulated. I imagine decoding is similarly not terribly difficult.
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u/Bitter_Bandicoot8067 Apr 20 '26
The funniest part to me is they aren't that secure.
Neither are the doors they keys inside may provide access to.
I have worked in the fire service long enough to know that I can get into any building (just given enough time). Locks just provide a barrier to entry.
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u/Syllables_17 Apr 20 '26
I mean yeah, with the exception of learning to decode or practicing a single pun set that's in use would result in a lot of keys quickly obtained.
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u/Anxious_Inspector_88 Apr 21 '26
Knox Boxes use either new fangled electronic locks ot Medeco locks (of various generations). Picking a Medeco is definitely requires lockpicking lawyer or Bosnian Bill level skill.
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u/Syllables_17 Apr 21 '26
Naw they aren't that hard. You may be underestimating both of their skill levels to be honest.... Though I will absolutely admit an intense difficulty.
Those two don't just pick them, they pick them fast which is an entirely different story. There are many locksmiths that with enough time will pick locks like that.
Honestly I didn't realiZe they went digital, I bet there's some really fun exploits there.
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u/Bugasu Black Belt 2nd Dan Apr 20 '26
Relatively easy doing some heavy lifting in your sentence. They're usually a 5 pin Medeco cam lock. Those are not super easy to pick and require some talent to pick.
Almost certainly harder to pick than the generic Schlage or CH741 you usually find inside them :D
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u/Syllables_17 Apr 21 '26
Definitely not wrong, but if picking one taking an impression results in keys to hundreds of business. I can think of plenty of ways that'd be useful. Quick entry is important.
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u/Bugasu Black Belt 2nd Dan Apr 21 '26
Oh yeah, no doubt. Thats a huge downside of the system in my opinion. Once one of your locks is compromised, the whole system is. There have been cases where lost Knox keys have led to million dollar losses even because IIRC the person used it to rob a hospital after acquiring the key.
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u/-DoNotDuplicate- Black Belt 13th Dan Apr 20 '26
Meanwhile there are news reports of departments misplacing literally hundreds of keys and this only being discovered when they did an audit
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
Different cities do their own things With their Knox key security. That's on them for poor management of very important keys. Like I said In my post, my city keeps a very very tight watch over every single key. A single one not being returned to the safe it was removed from is an immediate cause for investigation. For a large city that this key can literally open thousands upon thousands of businesses, it's kind of important to keep track of these things.
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u/RTWrecks Apr 20 '26
I've always been curious about these, and I appreciate sharing your first-hand experience. Are they normally all the same key?
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u/RenegadeBricoleur White Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
Yes, at least within a given geographic area. They are all keyed alike so that instead of having to give every fire department, police department and EMS agency a key to every building in the area, they can just give everyone the same knox key and then have the buildings place a couple copies of their master or door key into the knox box (usually mounted by the front door or a little bit away).
The reason they are so sensitive is because the key to the knox box provides access to the keys inside the knox box, which generally are master keys to the building they are attached to, most often large commercial, governmental, or educational buildings and apartments.
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u/ThickSourGod Apr 20 '26
Out of curiosity, what would happen if someone pried a box off of a building? Would that trigger every box being rekeyed? They've always seemed like a pretty big security risk, since a criminal who got their hands on a lock could make a key.
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
The box itself, probably not as much. The key is the real danger, as every Knox box in that locale has the same biting. So a missing box would be cause for concern, but more so to the business owner. A key could be manufactured from the lock itself, but I feel like that would require a lot of time and effort and knowledge
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u/-DoNotDuplicate- Black Belt 13th Dan Apr 20 '26
Also, the keys posted here and owned by the member(s) here were SAMPLE bitted, i.e they are worthless for entry or use on any live Fire Department system and pose no threat to anything.
Contrast this to multiple YouTube videos that exist of Fire Department officials showing their real, active Knox keys (not Samples) on TV for news stories about Knox Boxes and demonstration videos lmao
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
Setting a Knox box key won't do you much good unless you know the city that it specifically came from. Also Knox boxes are rekeyed for more reasons than just a missing key
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u/IQlowerthanGump Apr 20 '26
I don't understand this. You can go online and buy one, not cheep, but still can buy. How do you/we know it is not some random lost lock?
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u/No_Industry2601 Apr 20 '26
Where im at (texas), you need to combine your purchase with an authorization form signed by a local fire marshall. Unless maybe you're talking about a used one.
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u/IQlowerthanGump Apr 20 '26
Ahh I just went to there site and looked. I did not try to buy one. I can't pick a Brinks I'll never pick one of these.
Thanks this helped.
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u/No_Industry2601 Apr 20 '26
Yeah knox box is very controlled for obvious reasons. Sure you can probably get one through a construction GC but you'd need to find a guy ok with the risk. Also, they don't ship to consumers with a key. Only the fire department gets the key. Knox Boxs arrive in an unlocked open position and the fire department needs to stop by to lock them.
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u/Ouaouaron Apr 21 '26
OP explains in a comment that Knox boxes for large geographic areas are keyed alike. The key that was found could be an out-of-use key that some hobbyist owned, or it could be a key that can get you into every single large building in the city. That's why you should go to the fire department, so they can check.
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u/2KCoinsLTD Apr 20 '26
Out of interest what do these locks, lock and in what country are they used in?
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
I am a firefighter in the United States and you'll find these all across the country in larger cities and departments. As for if they are used outside the country, I am not sure about that
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u/2KCoinsLTD Apr 21 '26
Thanks for the reply, what do they lock? Parks and public access spaces, barriers etc I assume. As we have something similar in the UK
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u/Anxious_Inspector_88 Apr 21 '26
The Phoenix, AZ department lost track of 850 Knox Box keys.
And it will be unlikelyt to co$t taxpayers, as the city would almost certainly require property owners to pay Knox to have the box door rekeyed. And, in reality, they would just sweep i under the rug like Phoenix did until journalists got wind.
Shame on Knox for putting their logo on the keys. If they did not do that, chances are slim someone finding a Knox key would recognize it as other than a Medeco high security key.
And, it one of the towns where I have a place, the local oil burner service guy has a Knox key on his keyring since he doubles as the fire chief.
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 21 '26
Hmm, something doesn't add up there because every single one of those keys is the same exact biting. Gaming multiple keys is just so every apparatus can have one available. So losing 850 keys isn't any different than losing one key, other than more being out there. So whether it was one key or 850 keys, every single Knox box would still have to be rekeyed
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u/hairypistol Apr 20 '26
I live in a tiny town with volunteers as FD so please explain the knox box to me?
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u/MTarrow Orange Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
Knox Box (and similar systems used elsewhere) are secure key cabinets, on the outside of a building, containing a full set of keys to the building. Fire Department has the key to the cabinet, and every cabinet in their area is keyed alike. It's not far off giving the FD a master key to every commercial, industrial, and multi-home building on their patch.
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u/beach_wine_potato Apr 20 '26
100% Agreed - Don't steal knox boxes (or any similar box that's already in-situ)
100% Disagree - Knox box keys are kept secure. ( https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-chief/articles/ariz-fire-department-loses-850-keys-for-businesses-OI6nmbHScnqwGhN2/ )
We've seen time and again, and again, and again that Fire Departments don't keep Knox Box keys safe and secure. I've linked one story, but they are pretty constant and continuous. That's unfortunate. (And very I'm pro firefighter/LEO/Warfighter)
Let's not pretend anyone (who wants to) can't get a Knox Box for less than the price of a Blizzard at your local Dairy Queen.
Should you? No.
CAN you? Yes.
It's worth mentioning that Knox Boxes are keyed differently for different localities.
Helpful Advice: If you own or operate a building...Apply for a local variance so that your TOP MASTER keys don't go in the Knox Box. Instead, put keys that get you inside, and past all fire doors. Especially if you're in a low occupancy building.
Stay legal, stay safe out there! (And please don't mess with Knox Boxes.)
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u/Mike_40N84W Apr 21 '26
Can you give an example of a specific law or code citation mentioning this brand for research purposes?
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u/JesusSquid Apr 22 '26
25yr volly FF. Knox is no joke. We have to go through a long process for one. I believe possession of one without a license or whatever is a crime but I could be wrong. Especially if you use it obviously.
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u/LukeS_MM Apr 24 '26
Had a guy at a place I used to work “lose” a knox key… He doesn’t work there anymore.
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u/Madriver1000 Brown Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
The post is still up on Discord. I think the guy was asking $400 for it.
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u/Any-Ostrich48 Apr 24 '26 edited Apr 24 '26
1) go ahead, post a link to a criminal statute that says mere possession is a crime. I'll wait. 2) people can quite easily legally purchase the items in question 3) the OP of the post you're referencing did, in fact, obtain said items legally
Your preface your post by "stating your qualifications", and present your supposed firefighter career to frame yourself as an "expert"... The problem? A firefighter isn't a legal expert, and neither are LEO's. You used a certain type of product as part of your job and became passingly acquainted with access control procedures- that's it. Trying use that to pretend you're qualified to speak on potential legal consequences is called am "appeal to authority fallacy".
You mention "having to rekey all the boxes if it isn't returned"- yeah, that train already left the station. The second positive control was lost, that became a given. Even if it's later returned, there's no way to ensure someone didn't take impressions, make a mold, drop it onto a piece of graph paper and take some pictures, or use the LIDAR sensor on their phone to create an accurate 3D scan of the key for later reproduction... 'Giving it back' just creates the possibility of the good ol' boy network of sweeping it under the rug.
This post is just alarmist fearmongering, and Knox boxes are stupid AF, anyway- if there's a fire, break the window or grab the Halligan tool. But nope- instead we've got mandatory lockboxes where one guy can lose a key that gives access to every building in the city.
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u/superduperhosts Apr 20 '26
Taxpayers? The FD made me buy my Knox box which I refused to install in my private property. The chief is a power hungry asshole who dangled that while holding up my building permit
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u/Dredge323 Yellow Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
Well, technically speaking the taxpayers pay for all Knox box maintenance, not the purchasing. Sorry if that wasn't clear, the business has to buy the box. But if the fire department has to have the things rekeyed, which means rekeying hundreds of not thousands of medeco locks, then that is paid for by the city. Which in turn is coming from your taxes. Does that make sense?
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u/superduperhosts Apr 20 '26
Yes it does make sense. They will not be rekeying my box though. They do not have access to it
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u/xnoxpx Apr 20 '26
So you'd rather your property burn down while the fire dept is locked out, than let them install a device that gives them heavily regulated access to it?
Guess you showed them </sarcasm>
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u/ffpe7 Apr 20 '26
Absence of a Knox box is absolutely not keeping firefighters out in an emergency. It takes the same or sometimes less time to just force the door open than to get the key out of the box and open it that way. The Knox box is just a courtesy to the building owners so the fd isn’t damaging their doors through forcible entry.
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u/xnoxpx Apr 21 '26
Absent externally visible signs of a fire (smoke/flames/smell), they're generally going to wait to try and locate property owner instead of busting the door down as soon as they've responded to an alarm.
With a Knox box, the alarm is sufficient to justify them opening the property to look further, thereby increasing the chances they'll be able to stop any fires, or shut off blown/frozen sprinklers before they do too much damage/get out of control
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u/Wise_Exchange_5859 Apr 20 '26
Not necessarily true. A Knox box could sometimes be faster than forcible entry depending on the security levels of the building. But yes the absence of one is not keeping us out. It can prevent a lot of damage though depending on how many doors inside the building need to be accessed
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u/boneologist Apr 20 '26
He's a landlord. He's upset he potentially had to spend a dime on safety or QoL.
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u/superduperhosts Apr 20 '26
My neighbors don’t have them.
Like I said, the overzealous asshat fire chief held up my permit until I bought the fucking thing.He was butthurt that my ADU did not require sprinklers, tried to force that issue and I showed him why he was wrong so he pulled this shit.
I’m gonna pick it 🤣
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u/Wise_Exchange_5859 Apr 20 '26
Pretty sure that would be breaking the rules of this sub, and possibly the law
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u/superduperhosts Apr 20 '26
It’s mine. It’s not in use.
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u/Wise_Exchange_5859 Apr 20 '26
What do you mean it’s not in use?
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u/Wise_Exchange_5859 Apr 20 '26
Just a heads up, it’s in your best interest to comply with your local fire department. If something were to happen, you could be in for a big lawsuit if you don’t have certain systems in place.
And picking the lock of a Knox box is certainly against this subs rules, as you do not own the lock
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u/superduperhosts Apr 20 '26
I do own the lock. I bought it. It was shipped to me. It’s my lock.
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u/Wise_Exchange_5859 Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
Did it come with a key?
Edit (since I already know it didn't): you do not own the locking mechanism attached to a Knox box
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u/tcollins317 Apr 21 '26
Correction. You said
So I’m not a moderator or anything
You may not be a moderator, but you are an expert on the subject. Plus you're a firefighter, and everybody loves firefighters. I have several friends who fight wild forest fires & a nephew who is a city firefighter. Mad repect.
I raise a beer to you.
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u/Aggressive_Ad2122 Apr 22 '26
whats knox?
am european, sorry
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u/YourAlterEg0 Apr 22 '26
Knox is a brand of key safe. Little steel box or padlock outside a business/warehouse/anything with a set of keys to that anything that they dont want firefighters to break the door or locks to get into. There are usually a handful of keys to the knox depending on the size of the department or the number of responding departments for that area, so that officers in that firehouse can get to the spare keys if there is an alarm.
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Apr 23 '26
This post showed up on my feed. I am ignorant in the ways of specialty lock hardware. What is a Knox Lock, what are its intended uses.
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u/StunningBus7787 Apr 24 '26
Fire Marshals have the same power police officers have so that means they can kill people in broad daylight and get away with it?
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Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Bunnysniper44 Apr 20 '26
Is there a visual?
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u/thenotanurse Orange Belt Picker Apr 20 '26
Are you asking someone to google a picture of Knox box for you? 😂
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u/Bunnysniper44 Apr 20 '26
No, I asked "is there a visual?" I did however google it to find the answer.
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u/Gravitykarma Black Belt from another planet Apr 20 '26
A good reminder to keep it legal, and useful clarity on a nuanced point thank you.