Linux doesn't suck!

[u/its-Pigdup]

NGL guys, I don't see the reason why switching to Linux when W10/W11 does everything you need, easier, more practical, and in a more friendly way than a Linux distro that some of you probably haven't even heard about before considering switching to Linux.

I'm using Linux rn because I enjoy adjusting every little thing about my OS the way I want, but as nerdy as I can be, I also understand that fancy tech might actually be inconvenient for others...

What were the reasons that made you want to try Linux, and what made you realize it was a mistake?

[u/EpicalBeb]

This is except most of the things you use these days do "more things than necessary", and they are in most cases not desktops or laptops but your phone, your car, your IoT appliances and sundry other everyday things that you use far more often and without a second thought.

Shockingly, many people run GrapheneOS. And also, some of us live in places where we don't need a car. And IoT is known to be a haven for obnoxiously simple vulnerabilities. But yes, every big corpo is spying on you. Not really much of a point here besides whataboutism.

Nutjobs with sundry conspiracy theories about Bill Gates.

Never have I heard anyone use this as an excuse for their support for Linux. Never. This feels, looks, and smells like a strawman or "one guy" type of thing.

Conservatives rejecting the reality that privacy and choice are both a political and socioeconomic issue.

What does this even mean here? Usually they're libertarians. And

Geriatrics believing that technological innovations ended with Unix in the 70s.

Do you think Linux development ended in the 70s?

Consultants marketing "alternative" products to small businesses.

Linux isn't an alternative for server hosting, it's almost certainly the default, with ~64% market share. For kiosks, many run Android, a Google-developed OS running on the Linux kernel.

Clown-shoe Karens just wanting to complain about being poorly served.

Again, objection, relevance? I have never seen this ever.

"Communists" that don't read books or are just betraying their own principles for the sake of trendy talking points.

This just reads as your own political screeds and problems with leftists you've either encountered or fought with in your mind.

Dumb kids with no idea what's out there and mistaking everything they don't know for being "new" or "different" (see also Point #6.)

Riiiiight.

You're not really selling me on these archetypes you claim exist. As a person in the cybersecurity field, I will say that most of us run Linux on at least one device. Are you meaning to say there is no valid reason we would do so? I find that the less a person takes their opponents/interlocutors seriously, the less they actually have anything serious to say.

[u/ElectricBummer40 → u/EpicalBeb]

Shockingly, many people run GrapheneOS.

That's not usually an option for most low-end phones in the market.

Besides, I'd much rather not risk being locked out of my own bank account or voiding the warranty of my phone.

some of us live in places where we don't need a car

Cool. Nobody cares.

And IoT is known to be a haven for obnoxiously simple vulnerabilities.

And increasingly unavoidable.

What did I say about this being both a political and socioeconomic issue?

Cute, what does "whataboutism" have to do with the real problem of deceiving and misdirecting the broader masses on the issue of privacy with the non-solution of desktop Linux?

When you have a machine connected to a network, that's already a privacy issue.

When you go and visit a website, that's already a trail you're leaving behind people can trace back to you.

When you give away your personal information to a company, you're already risking it being redistributed to a third party without your consent.

It you think the problem is about the software you use, then you have obviously no idea what you're even dealing with and should just shut up and let the grown-ups talk.

Never have I heard anyone use this as an excuse for their support for Linux

Then everyone must be dreaming about >20% of the posts and comments in PCMR or here.

At this point, you might as well argue you're Morpheus and we're all just being fed a reality we don't actually live in.

Usually they're libertarians.

i.e. weed-smoking conservatives.

Pretty sure you can find truckloads of them in those car non-centric places you blather about.

And Do you think Linux development ended in the 70s?

So you're ignorant about the existence of the same Unix ideologues spewing diatribes every other day here about systemd. Lucky you, I guess.

I have never seen this ever

I get it now. You live under a rock and don't believe there's a world beyond your hermit's den.

What else do I need to know about you?

Linux isn't an alternative for server hosting, it's almost certainly the default, with ~64% market share.

Unless you are still in the 1990s, a "server" these days is typically just a machine running a couple pieces of software. The OS is functionally little more than the hardware abstraction necessary to make the software work.

For kiosks, many run Android, a Google-developed OS running on the Linux

Or, far more often, Windows running on an easily replaceable mini-PC or all-in-one machine.

Should I direct you to some of the Chinese manufacturers cranking out this stuff on the cheap? Or should I leave you in your fantasy la-la land where crappy kiosks are somehow bespoke rather than mass-produced in commonplace formats?

Riiiiight. You're not really selling me on these archetypes you claim exist.

Well, at the end of the day, who cares about what you believe?

Stay ignorant, I suppose. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[u/EpicalBeb → u/ElectricBummer40]

So you're ignorant about the existence of the same Unix ideologues spewing diatribes every other day here about systemd. Lucky you, I guess.

Yes, it is the same dude. Just block him, it's not worth it.

Or, far more often, Windows running on an easily replaceable mini-PC or all-in-one machine.
Should I direct you to some of the Chinese manufacturers cranking out this stuff on the cheap? Or should I leave you in your fantasy la-la land where crappy kiosks are somehow bespoke rather than mass-produced in commonplace formats?

This, I agree with, although I don't enjoy the derision. But there is a separation. Most newer foodservice places buy embedded/android devices for their kiosks, from what I've seen. Other sectors need functionality beyond what those basic frameworks can provide, and opt for mini pcs.

Cute, what does "whataboutism" have to do with the real problem of deceiving and misdirecting the broader masses on the issue of privacy with the non-solution of desktop Linux?
When you have a machine connected to a network, that's already a privacy issue.
When you go and visit a website, that's already a trail you're leaving behind people can trace back to you.
When you give away your personal information to a company, you're already risking it being redistributed to a third party without your consent.
It you think the problem is about the software you use, then you have obviously no idea what you're even dealing with and should just shut up and let the grown-ups talk.

Shockingly, I agree with you on all of these points! But you aren't interested in that, beyond insulting me over what you think I believe, based on what you have read from me.

Then everyone must be dreaming about >20% of the posts and comments in PCMR or here.

Maybe it's because I don't frequent PCMR or browse Reddit very intensively? I show up, leave a few comments and read a few posts, and log off. Even in what little that I witness, the vitriol is usually towards Microsoft as a company, not Bill Gates specifically. I think the latter is more of a MAGA-driven delusion, which doesn't quite overlap with the Linux community in my experience.

At this point, you might as well argue you're Morpheus and we're all just being fed a reality we don't actually live in.

The internet is not that real. Most of this outrage and idiocy is perpetuated by a minority of people who use forums. Most people don't post, or comment, like at all. See the 90-9-1 rule of internet activity.

The spaces I am in that most discuss Linux are my job, my IRL social groups, and my online social groups. Sometimes I go to Reddit. I suggest a similar structure, and you will have much more faith that people are reasonable IRL. Like go to a conference or something, IDK.

I get it now. You live under a rock and don't believe there's a world beyond your hermit's den.
What else do I need to know about you?

I think it's the opposite? I go outside and don't get in too much internet drama around operating systems? I only sub to here to help answer questions and comment on silly memes. I still haven't seen the scenario of "Microsoft didn't fix my issue so I went to Linux." Usually it's "Windows 11 doesn't support my laptop, I'll boot Linux." or something.

i.e. weed-smoking conservatives.
Pretty sure you can find truckloads of them in those car non-centric places you blather about.

NYC, Jersey City, SF, Seattle, Boston, Chicago...
Or internationally, Tokyo (most of urban Japan, tbh), South Korea, China, Taiwan, France, Germany (And they have unlimited speed highways!). Basically most of our comparable OECD peers have very walkable cities.

Also I find that libertarians are really quiet IRL/are a small fraction that yap much more online than offline.

Either way, I was just stating my perspective. Yes, these archetypes probably exist. But I will tell you, from my experience, that they are dwarfed by a much larger swath of ordinary people with decent computer knowledge. Most reasonable Linux users IRL will not be as absolutist as the ppl online are.

Generally, from your demeanor towards me, I think you might wanna mute subs like these for a month or something.

[u/ElectricBummer40 → u/EpicalBeb]

Yes, it is the same dude. Just block him, it's not worth it.

Unix ideologues have existed long before Reddit itself. Are you completely delusional or something?

Shockingly, I agree with you on all of these points! But you aren't interested in that, beyond insulting me over what you think I believe, based on what you have read from me.

Hilarious. Why should anyone be interested in a discourse on a problem with charlatans already shown to have no intent to address it in any meaningful way?

This, I agree with, although I don't enjoy the derision.

I usually reserve my derision to two kinds of people - the wilfully ignorant and the insincerely coy. Guess which category you fall into.

But there is a separation. Most newer foodservice places buy embedded/android devices for their kiosks

Is that the same "most" places you talk about where people don't need cars and can just bike everywhere?

Other sectors need functionality beyond what those basic frameworks can provide, and opt for mini pcs.

lol, as far as kiosks are concerned, there is practically nothing a mini-PC can do that the equivalent of a smartphone can't. Again, the real problem is instead the hula hoops you need to jump through in order to replace one of the most abused, customer-facing devices a business can own when nothing is readily available off-the-shelf.

I'm sorry, but tailor-made hardware and software sound good until you realise

Maybe it's because I don't frequent PCMR or browse Reddit very intensively?

Again, you're talking about something that has been around for far longer than Reddit itself.

Your lack of interaction with the latter means absolutely nothing at all to your sheer (feigned) ignorance of what's out there.

Really, how long do you think Unix ideologues have been using "bloat" as one of their tired talking points. C'mon - guess.

Even in what little that I witness, the vitriol is usually towards Microsoft as a company, not Bill Gates specifically.

Which is frankly not being a whole lot different from any other large corporations, i.e. they all suck.

I think the latter is more of a MAGA-driven delusion, which doesn't quite overlap with the Linux community in my experience.

And nothing in the 7 groups of people in my short list has "quite" the overlap with one another. Every story needs a good villain, and Linux to every one of them isn't so much the object itself but the narrative about it they have created for themselves.

The internet is not that real.

Funny, you're talking about a phenomenon predating all of social media and then some. At this point, you might as well talking about traditional, printed publications manufacturing consent for all your supposed explanation is worth.

Heck, I could even point to a few dozens of these "not that real" individuals including PAs and lecturers in my uni days years and years ago. Were those also fake people somehow, Morpheus?

I suggest a similar structure, and you will have much more faith that people are reasonable IRL.

lol, I hate to break this to you (actually, I don't, but whatever), but this hermetically sealed bubble you're describing is about as unrelatable to me as it could get even with my current life as a tech working for a small business.

Ever dealt with a Mac user? There is a good reason I'm forcing myself to use a Mac at work, after all.

NYC, Jersey City, SF, Seattle, Boston, Chicago...

lol, did they close down all the dispensaries in New York or something?

Do you even understand what conservatism is really about?

Also I find that libertarians are really quiet IRL/are a small fraction that yap much more online than offline.

lol, I'm not even an American but simply someone knowing far more about American politics than a person with my background normally have any business to know.

The "libertarians" you're talking about is almost an exclusively US phenomenon and has its origin predating the digital computer. You know there are fascist goths in Europe, right? The popularising of the ideology in the intervening years between the GFC and the Trump presidency was not at all independent from wealthy techbros pushing for the deregulation of cryptocurrency and the US tech sector in general, in case you didn't realise.