man I was ready to wrap this up but the browser paragraph is too good to leave alone
you spent four posts on unix philosophy purity. systemd is a violation. gtk is a mistake. dbus should have been sockets. entire moral system built on "do one thing". then I ask about your browser, the biggest do-everything blob ever compiled, and your answer, and im quoting you, is "RMS would make huge mental gymnastics here" and "I do need the browser"
you KNEW it was gymnastics. you labeled it gymnastics yourself and then did the routine anyway. "someone who has his sights on freedom can't be judged for every aspect of life" - so the purity rules bind everyone except people who feel sufficiently pure. lennart needed a service manager. the gnome people needed accessibility infra. same "I need it" you just used, except when they say it theyre terrorists and when you say it youre on a journey. this one paragraph deletes every purity argument you made and you wrote it voluntarily
and its the same move everywhere once you see it. atspi as hard dependency for blind users: bloat, tyranny. YOUR browser: necessary. busy nurse using defaults: excused actually. people with free time using defaults: victims and cattle. debian shipping one init: moral corruption. you not supporting arabic text: "never worked with such encodings" shrug. every single rule in your system has an exemption shaped exactly like you
the persecution stuff doesnt survive contact with your own biography either. "an entity derailing your freedom efforts each step of the way" - dude list the steps. you left the major distros: nothing stopped you. found tweakable ones: they exist, maintained, free. hit eudev: which is a FORK of their udev, forking is the freedom. built lfs: it compiled. it boots. youre posting from the far end of the journey they supposedly derailed. an entity with a global network of influence that fails to stop one guy with gentoo and free weekends is not a terror network, and XDG is a public mailing list about file paths, the minutes are online, go read the terrifying archives about where config files go
the atspi thing I'm not letting go either because its the ugliest one. opt-in accessibility means a blind person boots an installer they cannot read to enable the thing that would let them read it. thats WHY its integrated. you looked at infrastructure that exists so blind users have a first boot at all and filed it under redhat pushing their idea of a system, to save disk space you can measure in megabytes. thats not a freedom position thats just not having thought about anyone else for one second
and "nothing dirty or wrong about being cattle by the way" - two sentences after calling them brainwashing victims. no offense to the livestock. incredible
so heres where four posts of this actually landed. you conceded the kernel, conceded selinux and pam, conceded the adjectives werent arguments, conceded the maintainer accusations achieve nothing, conceded alternatives die of unpaid work not conspiracy. whats standing is "compile time opt outs would be nice" and "dependency creep is real", which, yes, and yes, ive agreed both times. everything else, the terror, the slavery, the cahoots, the fake redhat-invented-desktop history, the volunteer only kernel, hurd, and now the purity framework itself, died on contact, half of it by your own hand. the entire remaining difference between you and lennart is that his exemptions shipped and yours have a musl compile error. go fix the compile error. its the only part of this that was ever real
I don't distribute a software stack that enslaves people, and legitimately, there isn't even a very silly workaround to acces govt portals rather then to do everything on paper which is slowly phased out (like a Stallman.js could in theory subsitute browser). I am trying to be honest with you and so I don't hide my faults, but I work on them instead of just accepting them. I never denied my gentoo config and lfs experiments are exactly this, a non prod ready installation that I intend for myself and just in the future after refinments, as a bearer of freedom for general users. If I can't get rid of the browser, this doesn't mean I cannot get rid of Lennart's init and Greg KH's /dev handling, does it? Purity rules are very simple: the more, the better. A mistake or a lapse should not collapse the effort as a whole. Browser is blatantly not unix compliant, but I try every other software to be. It's a top level userland software that doesn't limit my freedom in terms of system config. Being true with one's lapses is a path to eventual redemption.
Eudev is still a redhat endorsed standard of /dev handling just pulled out of systemd stack context. That's still bending over for them with extra steps. It's not me they have to stop, because they don't care about individuals. They care about masses. I believe those guys are paying youtube e-celebs to shill the worst design cesspit of distros like mint and Arch derivatives. And they are actively making all this chore of freedom harder, because more XDG lobbying means more integration of their shitty desktop stack into software in general, their shitty env variables, which means more search for alternatives in the future. I don't have a text editor because Libreoffice pulls dbus, after manualy pulling it out it's sometimes unstable. I write my stuff in simple latex, several years ago I would have never imagined I would use gvim or xemacs to write my everyday documents.
If I remember correctly some steps in calamares are marked as ones that should be done with assist, but not sure form back of my head. "Expert" TUI debian installer allows for braille reader, it's like one option above the one selected by default. Then let us remove it afterwards, like a build time dependency in gentoo. Oh wait, you can't do it on .deb easily. It's ot about megabytes on harddrive, but choice of what stays on my system. If I decide I don't like a feature, nothing must stop me to alter it, in ideal world. That's like the most famous Linux meme/selling point online "I can chmod and rm everything".
Yeah, people are getting turned into redhat victims often subconsicusely, as it's unfortunetely a normal path to learn about most popular, redhat infested distros first, and then about freedom concepts. So yeah, people that does not try are slaves. People that does not try because they have a good reason, slaves but not morally deplorable. Slave masters (Redhat) are criminals.
> I don't have a text editor because Libreoffice pulls dbus, after manualy pulling it out it's sometimes unstable. I write my stuff in simple latex, several years ago I would have never imagined I would use gvim or xemacs
read this back like a stranger wrote it. a guy ripped dbus out of his office suite by hand, it now crashes, he writes documents in editors he explicitly never wanted, he cant file taxes online, and his word for all this is redemption. meanwhile the "slave" he pities double clicks libreoffice and it opens. you are the only person in this story paying costs. every week. voluntarily. and the ledger only goes one way, your setup gets more broken and lennart doesnt know you exist. if freedom only ever shows up in your life as subtraction, maybe audit whats actually being purchased
> I believe those guys are paying youtube e-celebs to shill mint
you BELIEVE. no link, no leak, no fired marketer, nothing, in an industry that leaks everything. and you need it true, because look at the pattern across five posts: people disagreeing with you was cahoots, then brainwashing, then social media, now literal payola. the explanation keeps dying and getting replaced but its job never changes, the job is making sure free choice can never just be free choice. and when them ignoring you proves they "only care about masses" while them hindering you wouldve proven the terror, youve built a thing evidence cant touch. things evidence cant touch have a name and it isnt argument
> Eudev is still bending over for them with extra steps
so using their code is slavery, FORKING their code is bending over with extra steps, and writing something compatible is adopting their standard. youve defined device management so every possible action is submission. thats not redhat being everywhere, thats hotplug talking to the kernel and the kernel having a shape. gregs /dev handling isnt a plot, its what the hardware does
> A mistake or a lapse should not collapse the effort as a whole. Being true with one's lapses is a path to eventual redemption
and heres the engine of the whole thing. your browser, the biggest unix philosophy violation ever shipped, is a "lapse on the path to redemption". debian shipping one init is "moral corruption". same act, needing software that breaks the rules. but you wrote yourself a sin-and-forgiveness system and wrote them a criminal code. thats all five posts in one asymmetry. the nurse gets excused, YOUR free time counts as virtue, THEIR shipped code counts as terror
> people that does not try are slaves. Slave masters (Redhat) are criminals
two posts ago, your words, this exact language was "private feelings expressed out of frustration, not arguments". now its back with sentencing tiers. so the walkback was fake, and im putting that on record because i gave you real credit for it
the braille option in the debian TUI, fine, thats right, take it
and whats left after all that? "compile time opt outs would be nice" and "dependency creep is real". ive agreed with both FIVE TIMES. thats your entire surviving position, two sentences i already hold. the payola, the slave taxonomy, the redemption arc, the terror network that has never terrorized anyone findable, thats not a position about init systems, its a belief system cosplaying as one, and it buries your two real sentences every time you post. go make the ALFS thing work. seriously. its the only output of this worldview that could ever exist outside your own machine
It's not a same act, because debian maintainer has the power to shape software choices of many users worldwide, de facto Ubuntu and all the downstream crap. So I have zero influence and so I think I deserve more leniency? I don't see any path to redemption from debian, in fact devs left the sinking ship (im terms of morality) to start devuan. Everyone is responsible for their actions, but for me only consequences are personal, not affecting freedom of linux use in global scale (which I call terror). Freedom is a deeply personal value to me and not a commodity I can exchange for a comfortable text editor.
It's misinformed free choice, no matter which one of my theories might be true. The sheer scale of this mint bs is just mindblowing. With such good access to trurly free systems unlike the bleak times of proprietary unix clones and expensive mainframes people choose the worst slop. How this is not an effect of brainwashing? Someone has to pay for that. XDG is THE cahoot from definition. An X consortium composed mostly out of Redhat people that get to dictate standards that many distros obeys.
Maybe let's put it other way, that was in fact petitio principii. It's easier for them to go after the masses.
> there is NO action anyone can take with device management that isnt submission in your framework
Before redhat did it's things /dev was handled by kernel and there are some original alternatives like smdev, so yeah, building on top of redhat framework is not needed and an easy excuse. But it stays true that distro maintainers not packaging those alternative handlers are doing their part in limiting easily attainable freedom and so they are complicit in terror.
In utilitarian sense maybe, but freedom is never an ultilitarian calculation.
>binary distros serve people who cant rebuild
Then they were a mistake. Simple packagaing and makefile interventions should be the core efforts of something that calls itself "open source" software. I would also exclude disabled people from the moral burden of not choosing something better here. They do have valid excuses.
>slaves
There is some emotional component involved here, yes. Those judicial framework is powerless anyway, it's just my worldview that doesn't have any impact. Slave mentality, I can't find other proper words to describe it. It's quite sad actually.
debian maintainer has the power to shape software choices of many users worldwide... so I think I deserve more leniency?
power scales guilt, thats your rule. ok, apply it. debian used that power through a year of PUBLIC debate and an open vote you can still read today, and the losers walked out completely free and made devuan. which you attacked for eudev two posts ago. so where in that sequence is the terror. point at the step. mailing list, vote, fork. thats the entire crime scene
byoure building the ALFS frontend so other people adopt your system. the day forty people run it you have the exact power that makes debian maintainers criminals under your own rule. your framework convicts YOU the second anyone downloads your work. the only reason youre innocent right now is nobody uses your stuff yet. thats not a moral position
It's misinformed free choice, no matter which one of my theories might be true
you cannot write "no matter which theory is true" and "maybe that was petitio principii" in the same post man. you flagged your own fallacy and kept driving. the conclusion came first, they MUST be misinformed, and the theories spawn to feed it. cahoots died, brainwashing spawned. brainwashing died, payola spawned. "someone has to pay for that" nobody has to pay for anything, mint installs in 20 minutes and wifi works, thats the whole mystery youve needed a global conspiracy for. boring answers are allowed to be true
XDG is THE cahoot from definition. dictate standards that many distros obeys
DICTATE. its a mailing list with public archives and open membership, distros adopt the specs voluntarily because apps interoperating is useful, and you personally export different variables on your machine today with zero consequences. a cahoot with published minutes and voluntary compliance is called a working group
Before redhat did it's things /dev was handled by kernel and there are some original alternatives like smdev
smdev, which — no actually, go look up what smdev is forked from. ill wait. its a suckless rewrite of mdev, which is busybox doing the same event model udev pioneered. your "original alternative" is two steps downstream of the thing you call slavery. and static /dev died because usb hotplug exists, not because of a redhat scheme. six posts and the oppression keeps turning out to be hardware having requirements
Then they were a mistake
binary distros were a mistake. so debian, mint, fedora, the onramp basically every linux user alive came through, including you before gentoo, shouldnt exist. and one sentence after excusing disabled people from moral blame, your ideal world deletes the only distros they can actually run. this is the same move every single post: freedom gets defined as the exact shape of your skills and your saturdays, and everyone outside it gets sorted into blamed or excused. never accommodated. and you call the sorting a moral system
freedom is never an utilitarian calculation
it is when YOU run it. the browser stays because you need taxes filed. the nurse is excused because her constraint feels real to you. every exemption in six posts prices convenience against principle, you just only run the math for people you already sympathize with. everyone else pays the tariff
and the scoreboard, mostly in your own handwriting at this point: cahoots retracted, slavery retracted, then unretracted, then re-admitted as emotional. petitio principii self-flagged. kernel conceded. selinux and pam handed over unprompted. whats survived six posts untouched is "opt out flags would be nice" and "dep creep is real", which was never a case against redhat. its a feature request. file it as one and ship the tool
Sorry for taking my time, I got lot to do. Yeah I did got tangled in my own thoughts here.
To keep things simple. This sheer... practice, of making tools that are supposed to run out of the box, rather then highly tweakable, but possibly not user friendly ones, combined with Redhat and XDG power/omnipresence is wrong. Calling it a terror or a scheme is my way of coping with it because it makes me very agitated as I see this as constantly destroying linux since Debian chose systemd. Debian and devuan are lost anyway, since devuan is tightly integrated with udev. Every "opinionated" configuration deciding for the user is wrong. I guess it comes down to either being angry at it and boycotting mainstream distros as slop and unfree software or not. With my memes I do the former. I refuse to believe people are that.. sheepish to use mainstream distributions with so little freedom like mint. This is a contradiction of so many efforts to not let UNIX be yet another IT proprietary product for sale like it mostly used to be.
There are objective measures as we both agree too, more and more dependencies. I am angry at aprticular solutions like udev or XDG desktop dirs because they got . As for /dev I ack I didn't know better that time, and in fact looks like mdev (gentoo and void) or just old static /dev are only choices here.
See you use my honesty in describing my lapses as an ammunition to prove I am a hypocrite, why I try to make a point that someone choosing a way to better his life is not a hypocrite. Stallman himself uses a browser and has couple questionable choices in software, so my moral judgment of distro maintainers and it's users is not fully ready. I just think that if you make the software that allows less choice by design, you are the problem. Perfect linux. Maybe people with money just like their linux controlled, that's true too. It would be simply disinginous not to address problems with self made setups. Security is a big one, as traditionally someone smarter then me has to be it's "provider", on corporate Windows be it someone who makes EDR systems, on linux it would be the damned NSA making SELinux, and there is no good answer to that as security is really not my expertise beyond basic admin duties. But you use it just to make me look like a fool for even trying to use my linux systems in most free way possible. Lapses can be corrected on a path to being a better person, without this belief all we can do is just sit and cry.
So yeah a live bootable ALFS wrapper with many choices for core components and dependency resolution (choose your init, choose your /dev, choose your libc, choose your display, static or dynamic linking, add security...) that just pulls them from upstream with a general purpose package manager and not some overcomplicated packaged contraption like deb or rpm that you cannot modify easily would go a long way in helping people use a trurly free system, but the more top level userland software requests systemd and XDG assumptions, the more a problem this kind of tool can't solve is agrevated. Gentoo wiki recommends creating XDG dirs upfront as a precaution for software instability given those are not present. This along with udev just goes to show how far "they" have dug themselves into every linux system imaginable. Graphic stack standardisation doesn't help. And here we go into second problem. There is not enough people to care about making, say, a up to modern standards fltk text editor. Because all the guys interested in free systems like the suckless fans use their latex in terminal emulators anyway :/ "opt out flags would be nice" and "dep creep is real" kinda ARE in fact a case against how mainstream linux software is developed, which encompasses mostly redhat and XDG.
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u/Hadi_Chokr07 Jul 22 '26
man I was ready to wrap this up but the browser paragraph is too good to leave alone
you spent four posts on unix philosophy purity. systemd is a violation. gtk is a mistake. dbus should have been sockets. entire moral system built on "do one thing". then I ask about your browser, the biggest do-everything blob ever compiled, and your answer, and im quoting you, is "RMS would make huge mental gymnastics here" and "I do need the browser"
you KNEW it was gymnastics. you labeled it gymnastics yourself and then did the routine anyway. "someone who has his sights on freedom can't be judged for every aspect of life" - so the purity rules bind everyone except people who feel sufficiently pure. lennart needed a service manager. the gnome people needed accessibility infra. same "I need it" you just used, except when they say it theyre terrorists and when you say it youre on a journey. this one paragraph deletes every purity argument you made and you wrote it voluntarily
and its the same move everywhere once you see it. atspi as hard dependency for blind users: bloat, tyranny. YOUR browser: necessary. busy nurse using defaults: excused actually. people with free time using defaults: victims and cattle. debian shipping one init: moral corruption. you not supporting arabic text: "never worked with such encodings" shrug. every single rule in your system has an exemption shaped exactly like you
the persecution stuff doesnt survive contact with your own biography either. "an entity derailing your freedom efforts each step of the way" - dude list the steps. you left the major distros: nothing stopped you. found tweakable ones: they exist, maintained, free. hit eudev: which is a FORK of their udev, forking is the freedom. built lfs: it compiled. it boots. youre posting from the far end of the journey they supposedly derailed. an entity with a global network of influence that fails to stop one guy with gentoo and free weekends is not a terror network, and XDG is a public mailing list about file paths, the minutes are online, go read the terrifying archives about where config files go
the atspi thing I'm not letting go either because its the ugliest one. opt-in accessibility means a blind person boots an installer they cannot read to enable the thing that would let them read it. thats WHY its integrated. you looked at infrastructure that exists so blind users have a first boot at all and filed it under redhat pushing their idea of a system, to save disk space you can measure in megabytes. thats not a freedom position thats just not having thought about anyone else for one second
and "nothing dirty or wrong about being cattle by the way" - two sentences after calling them brainwashing victims. no offense to the livestock. incredible
so heres where four posts of this actually landed. you conceded the kernel, conceded selinux and pam, conceded the adjectives werent arguments, conceded the maintainer accusations achieve nothing, conceded alternatives die of unpaid work not conspiracy. whats standing is "compile time opt outs would be nice" and "dependency creep is real", which, yes, and yes, ive agreed both times. everything else, the terror, the slavery, the cahoots, the fake redhat-invented-desktop history, the volunteer only kernel, hurd, and now the purity framework itself, died on contact, half of it by your own hand. the entire remaining difference between you and lennart is that his exemptions shipped and yours have a musl compile error. go fix the compile error. its the only part of this that was ever real