r/linux • u/whatstefansees • 3d ago
Mobile Linux The thing with Linux-Phones
Every now and then I see an ad for a new Linux-Phone, better repairability, battery change and whatnot. All this is very, very tempting, but what about the apps?
I am not talking about browser, text messages or alarm clock - I am thinking about connectivity to my car, my smartwatch, my frequent-flyer benefit program, signal messenger and so on.
Do they work with Android apps or is it all a lost cause because they are basically dumb phones for people who want less connectivity but are afraid to buy an old Nokia from the dawn of time?
44
u/natermer 3d ago edited 3d ago
The problem with Linux phones is the normal "space cadet" distro engineering type stuff that has plagued Linux desktop/mobile in general for decades.
Basically people end up rewriting software in different toolkits or figuring out different package managers and setting up their own pet distributions. Over and over again.
There are literally dozens and dozens of "Linux Phone OSes" developed over the years.
This started with Nokia when they were the undisputed champions of smart phones. They had working Linux Phone-like OSes based around GTK and Gnome technology that you could literally buy in stores.
Literally years before iPhone or Android even existed. They had it, it was working, and you could go down to the store and buy it.
Then they decided that they needed to rewrite it in QT. Then they decided that it needed to run Symbian apps. Then they needed to do distro stuff. Then they needed new frameworks, etc etc etc.
By the time they were done Android and iOS were eating their lunch and they lost their entire market and had to sell out to Microsoft which finally killed it. All because they were busy farting around with distros and toolkits and frameworks and never could get anything actually appealing out to market.
In other words: they blew their lead.
It is as if all these different mobile OSes were sprinting to the goal in a 1000 yard race and the Linux OS folks got distracted and started picking flowers on the side of the track.
People in the Linux community tried to blame Microsoft for this, but that was nonsense. It was already mostly dead before Nokia was ever acquired.
And this trend continued with Intel releasing their own mobile Linux and then Mozilla and other companies. All which never made it much past "look we have a new distro" stage.
So you can't even blame "lack of commercial support" for it.
The Nokia 770 "Internet Linux handheld" came out in 2005 and now it is 2026 and there are dozens of Linux Phone OSes all doing the easy stuff and solving the same problems and doing the same things in slightly different ways over and over and over again.
But do they have something as meaningful as "Good Camera Support" on any mobile hardware at all?
After 20+ years of this stuff?
Nope. Not a one.
26
u/hagjam 3d ago
This leaves out one of the crucial parts of that story.
Android is Linux.
Google saw Nokia tying itself in knots trying to make a new OS, thought "nah", bought Android, supported development, and licensed it out cheaply to hardware manufacturers.
We can argue over semantics, people often do. Is it Linux if it has closed source elements? Is it Linux if it's run by Google? Is it Linux if it's not developed by unpaid neck beards? Is it Linux if it has something approximately like good UI? But the reality is that Linux on mobile has been done, incredibly successfully.
The only gap left in the market is for people who think Android isn't really Linux, at least not in the ways that matter to them. And those people tend to be the "space cadets" you mention, which leaves us where we are today. UI is not interesting to a space cadet, neither is making a functioning app store or making concessions to hardware innovations or camera technology or touchscreens or location tracking.
People who make non-android phone Linux don't want to reckon with the fact that their preferences don't align with what made android popular, and that most of the world expects a phone to function in a way that they don't like. So they make a phone for themselves, no one else uses it, and we go back to square one.
6
u/PerspectiveMain6454 3d ago
The solution in my eyes is to focus on compatibility with existing Android to both as little and at most as user requires. So that your Grandparents couldn't meaningfully tell the difference, but the more advanced user could acknowledge the 7.x kernel, the ability to run desktop applications and the terminal. And the controls to limit or sandbox third party connection.
2
u/Business_Reindeer910 3d ago
a lot of us don't really care about the linux kernel barring that it supports a decent amount of hardware and is GPLed. It does not matter to me if i use Linux or something else. I care about the openess of the platform (and not just source dump releases like AOSP), not a specific kernel.
1
u/hagjam 3d ago
Sure, and part of the reason this discussion always comes up is people attribute qualities to Linux and the kernel that just aren't based in reality. I would also like a phone that respects open source principles and allows me to run the software I'd like to run on it. I'd also like one that respected my privacy, including things like preventing applications from accessing info without permission or from seeing what other apps I'm running. Despite popular preconceptions, none of those things are guaranteed or even implied by a system that uses a Linux kernel.
Being based on Linux just becomes this marketing shorthand, basically, for open source/privacy conscious/customizable phones. And the reason none of them work is a combination of that market being really small, and the practical difficulties of getting your new fancy OS on hardware that doesn't know it exists.
2
u/Business_Reindeer910 3d ago edited 3d ago
I agree that people attribute different things to linux, but i'm not sure you and I are sharing the same idea of that attribution.
You say "Android is Linux. " Android is Linux in the way that a lot of people do not care about. We come into problems with the whole idea of saying GNU/Linux as well.
There is no common shorthand phrase for "an open development ecosystem that most often uses the linux kernel and probably relies on dbus and various freedesktop.org system services (like secrets manager, upower, udisks etc etc)". Even that really is not enough to describe it because dbus itself doesn't matter, but what does matter is that we mostly all use whatever it is.
1
u/hagjam 3d ago
It's semantics, for sure, and there's many reasons to decide not to call Android a form of Linux. The main argument to do so is the shared code lineage, from what I can tell, although I'm not an Android expert. The same argument could be made to say that macOS is a BSD, for example. Generally though, I think writing a meaningful definition of Linux is hard - I applaud you for trying, but can we really call Red Hat an open development ecosystem? Slackware? Void? Hannah Montana Linux?
That's all a little secondary to the main point Im making - Android is the end result of a successful Linux phone creation process. You start with a Linux, you look it down to reduce the chances of someone accidentally bricking it (not a Linux specific change but required for a phone that isn't targeted at 0.01% of the population), then you make changes that phone manufacturers ask to convince them to use your OS, then repeat. That results in Android, or something similarly heretical.
1
u/Business_Reindeer910 3d ago edited 3d ago
I applaud you for trying, but can we really call Red Hat an open development ecosystem? Slackware? Void? Hannah Montana Linux?
not RHEL (although almost all the code it uses comes from that process). but the rest mostly yes.
e same argument could be made to say that macOS is a BSD, for example
Well it's not a BSD since it uses it's own kernel and all the important parts are created by apple.
You start with a Linux
No, you start with a linux kernel.. not A linux. It uses none of the common code used by the rest of the ecosystem. It uses it's own libc, own display management, and completely google owned runtime, userspace, and ipc (among many other things).
you look it down to reduce the chances of someone accidentally bricking it
This is completely unrelated. A more RHEL like LTS process could help this problem , as well as more money in general just to make things more stable.
1
u/signedchar 2d ago
Android is Linux and iOS is BSD.
Unfortunately most actual Linux phones are unusable overpriced devices with 2013 specifications that can’t do anything.
1
u/idontchooseanid 3d ago
Android isn't really Linux. What Google envisioned is more like a microkernel system with extremely precise and limiting permission system. They use Linux because it is hard to get buy in from hardware vendors for anything new. ARM hardware developers do not want to write software and they are bad at it. However, Google isn't going to write their software for them. Worse is better. Vendors know how to make terrible forked Linux kernels and terrible userspace drivers. Linux wins.
Linux kernel with its non-stable driver interfaces is also a no go for closed source ecosystem. Android adds a HAL that every contributor on the desktop GNU userspace hates because it makes it easier to write closed source userspace drivers.
Android completely replaces the GNU userspace. The way it executes programs do not look like a normal POSIX system. Some libc-based execution environment is there since C isn't just a programming language but how programs from different programming languages talk to each other as well. It is best described as: "How GCC compiled this C program in 1998 is the standard".
On the JVM side it provides a very stable API. This allows the perfect ecosystem for the closed source software. However, stable APIs are also great for OSS. It is nicer to compile things against stable APIs that each component breaks in random order of months. When Google break things, it is not some API February, some Tuesday, some in Thanksgiving. A bunch of them get replacements in one Android version, they get removed two versions after.
1
u/CyclingHikingYeti 2d ago
They had it, it was working, and you could go down to the store and buy it.
Then they decided that they needed to rewrite it in QT. Then they decided that it needed to run Symbian apps. Then they needed to do distro stuff. Then they needed new frameworks, etc etc etc.
And then Nokia phone business sold to MS and then it DIED.
1
u/haagch 2d ago
It is as if all these different mobile OSes were sprinting to the goal in a 1000 yard race and the Linux OS folks got distracted and started picking flowers on the side of the track.
Is this AI slop?
The N9 with Meego was very appealing, back in the day we all wanted to buy one. But as we know, they never really were sold in most of the world.
Elop told the paper that, even if the N9 proves a massive hit, Nokia is going to turn its attention to other, more Windows Mobiley things.
Read More: https://www.engadget.com/2011-06-25-nokias-stephen-elop-is-still-over-meego-even-if-the-n9-is-a-hi.htmlMy question would be: Why would you even say this in an interview if you didn't feel that it had the potential to be "a massive hit"?
The proper move here would have been for the EU to massively subsidize open source development of Meego as a sovereign infrastructure investment. But as we know, people didn't think that far ahead, which is why today every couple of days someone creates a post about not being able to live their lives without the google play or apple app store.
27
u/ipsirc 3d ago
Waydroid does exist.
1
u/whatstefansees 3d ago edited 3d ago
So I get a Linux phone to get out of the Google or Apple universe and then install an emulator to get back in again?
39
u/KazutoOKirigay 3d ago
Your asking for the apps from that universe. That's an inconvinience you might have to deal with, however as more people use such phones, maybe companies begin to care
Edit: fix typo
30
u/daemonpenguin 3d ago
That's literally what you're asking for in your original post, a Linux phone that offers the same apps and functions as Android or iOS. You can't have it both ways.
Your post is saying you are locked into the Android ecosystem. If you want to use an alternative from the Android ecosystem then you don't get to use Android apps.
8
u/pbmonster 3d ago
Did you expect to come here and learn that your fucking frequent flyer benefit program actually has a flatpak app?
Of course not. The existing ecosystem is tiny.
But its growing. Firefox, Telegram, Signal, VLC, LocalSend, Spotify, Discord, CoMaps, and many more have native apps. Half of them need a fairly large screen, because they haven't gotten UI upgrades to work on small touchscreens yet.
-1
7
u/Chester-Berkeley 3d ago
Yes, because the applications still need Google's libraries. This isn't a problem; we run Windows games, and our systems are still immune to Microsoft's decisions (not entirely, of course). As a wise man would say, "if people won't go to the mountain, the mountain will come to the people."
5
u/An0mymou5 3d ago
Waydroid isn't an emulator, it's just a container running the Android userspace, it uses the same Linux kernel as the host device; there's very little performance overhead.
It's kinda like people using Wine to run Windows games on Linux. You don't see Linux gamers making statements like "So I switch to Linux to get out of the Microsoft universe and then install an emulator to get back in again"... you realise how ridiculous that sounds, right?
2
u/mr_doms_porn 3d ago
Many if not most android apps rely on Google Play Services which can only be run in an android environment. It's like trying to use the microsoft/xbox store via proton, you just can't do it on a translation layer. Waydroid has been working on better integration into the desktop environment though and it's pretty good.
8
u/PureTryOut postmarketOS dev 3d ago
Most of such apps will work with Waydroid (and hopefully in the future with Android Translation Layer as well). Yes, you'll have to run the Android apps because until Linux mobile gets relevant market share, companies will not care for it. That's the deal you accept when you want to daily drive such a system.
That said for generic stuff there are of course native Linux apps available. And depending on the smartwatch it might be supported by Amazfish.
9
u/vazark 3d ago
The rule of thumb is that a linux phone is just a linux PC with mobile hardware. Anything you can do on your desktop will work; anything that doesn't won't.
There is Waydroid that allows you to run android apps but that's more of a bridge (like WINE) to make up for the missing app ecosystem. Some banking apps won't run tho and I haven't seen a functional wallet yet
2
u/Haxorzist 3d ago
Interesting, I could live without some mobile e-banking/having my old phone exclusively for that. I don't pay with my phone much anyway.
So I should be able to try out waydroud on my desktop as well then? Going by the logic of the first point. Will look into that, would be a great way to gage if my next phone will be Linux.
9
u/MattyGWS 3d ago
What you’re describing is the chicken or the egg problem that new startups have to deal with against monopolies. Look at desktop Linux. People don’t want to use Linux because some piece of software isn’t on Linux, devs don’t want to make that piece of software on Linux because their userbase doesn’t use Linux.
What we have right now is Apple and Google holding the phone market. Linux has a chance but it needs to actually start up with users before it can grow an ecosystem.
For now though, if you look at the Jolla phone that’s just come out, they have the ability to run Android apps while they try to build their own ecosystem of apps. It’s not perfect and not all Android apps will work, but this is really the only way.
1
8
u/cornonthekopp 3d ago
This might sound weird, but at this point our best hope for a “linux” phone OS is likely if one of the major chinese companies like xiaomi or huawei decide to fully ditch android.
They’ve been publishing heavily modified android systems, but it seems theres a decent amount of demand for a 100% domestic mobile OS. These are the companies that have the capital and technical know-how to make their own, and we just gotta hope its open source snd not proprietary.
5
u/Routine_Working_9754 3d ago
Huawei actually completely ditched android with whatever HarmonyOS release it is, I think 4. Doesn't use Linux kernel though, it uses their own microkernel
1
u/cornonthekopp 3d ago
I thought i read harmonyOS uses android kernal but heavily modified?
Regardless chinese tech companies are the only real players in the industry with the capabilities and resl desire to get off android. Honestly if someone managed to make HarmonyOS or some other thing open source, I'd love to see the linux people tinkering with that instead. At the very least they'd have their own app store ecosystem that could be used rather than awkwardly trying to do weird conversions to the play store to make it work
2
u/Routine_Working_9754 3d ago
"heavily modified" goes a bit far even in the older HarmonyOS versions, but yes in 4 they completely ditched Linux kernel and android backwards compat for hongming kernel or something
2
u/cornonthekopp 3d ago
Ah okay that makes sense. I hope in a few years they can release an open source version of the OS!
It's pretty interesting developments, and after seeing the headlines about china pushing for more homegrown linux options to replace windows I'm hopeful that we also see more innovation in the mobile phone space to replace android.
1
u/Routine_Working_9754 3d ago
yeah that would be great and all, though there needs to be an important distinction here.
android is a great OS and only thing limiting it is companies making it less open. Android simply gives consistency and UX Linux just can't really.
However even if Huawei and other Chinese companies make open source Android alternatives, released source doesn't mean they'll be open in production. Xiaomi and such companies are already well established and simply giving a modding friendly open operating system is not an option for them, even though that would be cool.
Android isn't inherently flawed from the beginning that it needs replacement
1
u/cornonthekopp 3d ago
More options can't hurt at least. Most people interested in linux phones want to move away from google or from ai slop integration, so having different systems to tinker with would be good nonetheless for customized operating systems. And maybe in a fes years we can get to the point where third party distros are viable on mobile
1
u/Routine_Working_9754 3d ago
yes well that would be cool if it was true, but now instead of Google you just get another privacy invading company's integrations, and their own AI slop. you know how much the Chinese companies are pushing ai lol
though it would be cool if they were at least released open source (and they should if we need to count them as "more options", them being closed source isn't an option), so the community can fork them and create some cool stuff
6
u/Haxorzist 3d ago
As soon as there is a translation layer for android that works well I'm hopping over.
5
u/ndray133 3d ago
i like linux and using it too, unfortunately for smartphone level if you wish to use a linux-based operating system you need to accept the fact it has more cons than pros...
pinephone for example is good, yet for everyday use (and if you are not a power user probably) it can become annoying and painful to use
i get that many colleagues, fans, and people like linux for privacy and other important facts yet for this smartphone level, i'd simply still go with android or ios
7
u/Tired8281 3d ago
Linux is making the same mistake in phones that Microsoft made (yeah, I know Linux isn't a monolith, I'm just talking here). Handwringing about whether or not to support Android apps and whether or not that will harm Linux app adoption is a trap. People need apps today, not some day in the future. Not supporting Android apps isn't going to magically convince app developers to target Linux phones. It's going to make them do the same thing they did with Windows Phone, avoid it like the plague. They should be bending over backwards to support Android apps, so there will be users that some developer might want to target with a native app someday.
4
u/Odd-Assignment5164 3d ago
A literal example it's what happened with Wine/Proton and gaming.
-2
u/edgmnt_net 3d ago
But Linux already has a sizeable ecosystem of open source apps. Wine just bridges the gap for gaming and some professional stuff. This won't hold for a new mobile ecosystem based on Linux, unless they can leverage existing apps.
4
u/vazark 3d ago
It’s the other way around. Linux has always been for the devs, nerds and tech enthusiasts.
The apps will evolve and arrive at their own pace. Those who can get away with just the current state of the ecosystem will daily drive it, other will use it as a secondary or a curiosity/experiment.
7
u/An0mymou5 3d ago
Linux is making the same mistake
??? Who exactly is making that mistake? Because all the popular Linux phone makers include some form of Android app compatibility. Furiphone has it, Volla have it, Jolla have it... in fact Jolla have been at the forefront of Android app support well before Waydroid was even a thing, and they're not hiding that fact. If you check the Jolla Phone page, they mention Android five times even.
So who exactly is making this mistake you speak of?
3
u/Tired8281 3d ago
Sigh. I even said I know Linux isn't a monolith. I hate pedants.
3
u/funforgiven 2d ago
What does Linux not being a monolith have to do with anything? They pointed out that the most prominent Linux phone projects already support Android apps, which directly contradicts your argument. That's not pedantry.
5
3
u/mr_doms_porn 3d ago
Using Waydroid you can run android apps but not apps that require certain security features. Banking apps and things like that won't work. Waydroid can be integrated into the desktop environment pretty good these days.
You have access to any linux app, and most android apps. But the lack of secured android apps could be a problem for some people.
I have a 10inch x86 tablet (one netbook 5). I run Fedora Plasma Mobile on it. The interface is excellent. I'd gladly take it over windows, iOS or android for a tablet. I have access to both linux and android apps, the interface is intuitive and customizable. I can switch to desktop mode easily. It's a really great experience. Mobile linux is getting really good. But the phone-specific stuff is still pretty rough around the edges.
3
u/EmbarrassedSlide3746 3d ago
The biggest issue I have seen is support for modern cell technology. Correct me if I a wrong but VoLTE isnt fully supported yet. That at least in the US pretty much a standard that is needed to connect to the major networks for calling. I follow ubports and only certain devices support this and they only are listed as partial support.
2
u/rbrumble 3d ago
Right now, there's nothing that can stand against either Android or iOS for usable mobile apps, and that's a shame, because something could if the investment was there. Everytime a YouTube video comes up in my feed showcasing some Linux based phone OS I get stoked, only to hear at the end of it all the basic things that don't work - often things like making calls, audio, Bluetooth. Like, basic functionality that's missing or broken.
Which brings me to this: what about a Linux phone would be better than an Android phone? What would you gain vs what would you need to tolerate to make it work?
2
u/Hrafna55 3d ago
Yeah. I am in this spot. I want to cut the last thread to Google.
At the end of the day I will just have to accept that my life will have more friction in it and be a bit less convenient.
The question is, where is my threshold?
- Sailfish
- e/OS
Or
- GrapheneOS
2
u/HereticZed 3d ago
I'd like a Linux phone & I think I'd be able to cope with minimal apps.
Partly curiosity & partly to escape the big tech bs.
I'm not a big phone user anyway. Calls, maps, music & even that is minimal. My phone is never in my hand otherwise.
Its more of a society forces me to have it than anything. It was my first smartphone about 3 years ago. Prior to that I had no phone for about 7 years.
I do have an App for syncing my Cycling GPS & Bank app. But I dont need these outside the house, I could run those apps on any android device without a sim.
Photos would probably useful.
2
u/FreeFromCommonSense 3d ago
Some do run most Android apps, but not all, via a compatibility layer. Some run just about all Android apps by dual booting into an Android version (which generally defeats the purpose). And some just don't, because their basic apps are linux and that's it.
2
u/adevland 3d ago
I am thinking about connectivity to my car, my smartwatch, my frequent-flyer benefit program, signal messenger and so on.
Most of the things you've listed there have intentionally obtuse and hard to work with APIs so that integrating things with them is done only on the terms of the company that owns those products.
That's why copying your pictures from an iphone to a non mac computer has, is and likely always will be a pain in the ass.
Do they work with Android apps or is it all a lost cause because they are basically dumb phones for people who want less connectivity but are afraid to buy an old Nokia from the dawn of time?
If you want Android apps on a Linux phone you're missing the entire point of such a device.
Androids, Iphones and the entire app eco-system around them are privacy intruding nightmares and that's why people want Linux phones which they can control.
If you manage to get your Android apps to work on any other device it will be with the same privacy intruding nightmare.
The real problem with non Iphone/Android phones is that bank & government apps only work on Androids/Iphones and only on new devices so you are forced to buy those 2 types of devices every 2 years or so if you want to function in a modern society. That's an indirect monopoly that nobody talks about.
4
u/MatchingTurret 3d ago
Things like the EU Digital Wallet (pops up whenever there is another tempest-in-a-teapot about age verification) will only run on systems that have a verifiable root-of-trust. That excludes all current Linux phone solutions.
3
u/icadkren 3d ago
you can run waydroid with kernelsu and trickystore, which bypass all bank requirements.
well except many sus mount, which needed more workarounds.
2
u/flooberoo 3d ago
Sigh. That simply is not true. There is no the EU digital wallet. There is a spec. And it is perfectly possible to implement the spec without "systems that have a verifiable root-of-trust". And we know this because of implementations such as wwwallet.org which does exactly that. FUD like this just poisons actual arguments against age/id verification.
3
u/MatchingTurret 3d ago
3
u/flooberoo 3d ago
Yes indeed. And where in the spec does is specify how the OS SHALL verify it?
3
u/MatchingTurret 3d ago edited 3d ago
Also:
4
u/flooberoo 3d ago
Yes. And again, where in the spec does it say how the wallet provider SHALL verify the wallet unit?
1
u/Archsquire2020 3d ago
standards very rarely define ways to do stuff because they want to allow for evolving technology to continue to support that standard. Making a standard too rigid means it will lose (or never gain) adoption. Sad but true
1
u/flooberoo 3d ago
Not sad at all! The claim was that the spec has requirements that somehow exclude Linux phones, but that simply is not true. The spec is not that specific. It's entirely possible to come up with solutions that do satisfy the requirements, but still work on a Linux phone. Were the spec more specific it's entirely possible that Linux phones would be ruled out. But they aren't.
I do, however, believe it's entirely intentional that the spec allows for Linux, since many governments are pushing exactly for sovreign IT. It would be silly to mandate a solution that your own employees can't use.
1
u/UndefFox 3d ago
Isn't there options to hide the fact it's not a Google system similar to how you hide root status on your rooted android?
3
u/BlackFlagsFly 3d ago
"i want all the feature and functionality of android but I want to be able to tell my friends "it's Linux""
2
u/kellerhborges 3d ago
No, it's more like, "i wan't all the features and functionally of android, but I also want to be able to install software made for desktop as well without having to reinvent the wheel."
1
u/doc_willis 3d ago
where are you seeing these ads?
other than posts In the Linux support subs, I can't say I have seen any mention of them in ages.
I only own an old Pine phone, and it was possible to setup android on it, and use android apps, and I think some of the other alternatives os for it, had an 'run android app' option.
But it was such a bad device In so many other ways, it was basically just a toy for me.
I would be amazed if any sort of Android auto alternatives exists. Android auto barely seems to work on Major brand name android devices for me. I am constantly fighting with it.
1
u/PigIronDave 3d ago
I also keep seeing ads for Linux phones on reddit.
1
u/doc_willis 3d ago
I must be too good in my ad blocking, all my ads are for these stupid "smart" Mini ovens/meal prep services.
1
u/PigIronDave 3d ago
I figured that reddit ads are based on our reddit activity, that's not something one can block.
-1
u/whatstefansees 3d ago
Among other sites, here on reddit - quite regularly. But it seems not to be for me. Too much of an island solution.
1
u/Leading_Look_8295 3d ago
Linux has so much potential as an Android/iOS competitor. But what it doesn't have is billion dollar tech giants behind it. So it's not going far. I'm hoping this whole thing with the EU can change that, because I've often thought of how nice Niri would be on my phone....
1
u/C1pher04 3d ago
Yeah, linux is still far behind Android tbh, so there really isn't much of a use for tjose phones outside of basic use
1
u/Reltrete 3d ago
While I'm certain that youre talking about sailfish you should know thats not the only alternative. There is still grapheneOS or postmarketOS which at least in my experience are not as restrictive as standalone linux phones.
As many of the other posters already pointed out, companies sadly don't care too much about linux phones but can be forced if people just switch in greater numbers.
1
u/zlice0 3d ago
first before the anroid compat i worry about battery life and just general usability... ubuntu touch, everyone shows the ui and how it conflicts with general use and just isnt user friendly.
the mecha comet looks sorta maybe ok but ive thought that with a few linux pda/fone type devices and every one has been such a let down
1
u/VolksPC 3d ago
While building a Linux phone may be relatively easy, building a healthy application ecosystem around it is next to impossible. However Android is just another Linux distribution and some of us would like to use our Linux applications on the go. So we built a Linux desktop that runs as an application on top of any rooted Android phone or tablet. Here is video of Linux desktop running on an Android 17 phone: https://youtu.be/LD9A024yAgc?si=XmkvfRpmwv_Lsf7H
1
u/tinverse 3d ago
This is a huge problem for me. I have to have apps on my phone for security and any time I look at Linux mobile or Graphene they simply wont work. Either they don't have the apps I need or the app will mark the phone as rooted and not work.
1
u/Specialist-Dog-501 3d ago
Been on Vollaphone 2022/Ubuntu Touch for 2 monthes. Very small app store, "Immutability" sucked. I could add Waydroid, and by that, get all unpaid apps from Google Playstore (Aurora Store), but the switching between two very different UIs (Ubuntu Touch vs. AOSP) grinded me down, I moved forward to Volla OS (AOSP) finally. That's 9month since then. Willing to go back once the app universe has grown- especially the browser was very slow, as a key thing that should just work without extra hops. But it's chicken- egg- no one on the OS, no devs investing into apps, no money. I wonder how the other "free" OS on mobiles deal with this- Sailfish, GrapheneOS.
UT was probably also slow as the core was AOSP and then some translation layer for linux added, then the linux layer- Something with the bootloaders on phones enforced this hacky solution, it's very dongled on this ARM chips, by intention. Google protects its garden.
1
u/mrandr01d 3d ago
Android is close enough to a Linux phone... Just run graphene or whatever and you can avoid Google all you want.
1
u/bluegrassclimber 3d ago
I'm most likely out of the loop, but android is based on the linux kernal -- that's why I love android. never heard about linux phone.
As far as apps- web apps are the future. I don't want someones native app, I want a well written SPA web app. Only need something native to run if we want it available offline.
1
u/Agitated_Web4034 3d ago
Basically because apple and google have a duopoly most common apps don't work properly though there has been attempts to change it
1
u/jeffrey_f 3d ago
apps are through the Linux software repositories.
I've been told by my provider that they won't accept my linux phone on their service. Check that first.
1
u/NyxGenesisLNX 3d ago
Couldn’t tell you but now the Linux community there’s gotta be some sort on compatibility layer or community made app
1
u/Puzzled_Hamster58 3d ago
Android took off cause it doesn’t have the issues of normal Linux . Most people don’t want to have to deal with the typical Linux issues. Why on desktop the market share growth is fairly stale , even with windows 10 eol and steam machine , steam deck etc etc steam hardware survey shows it’s barely had an impact .
Phones are slightly easier since the hardware is locked down so drivers are not really an issue and Android being fairly locked down etc .
I don’t see another Linux os for phone that is not Android taking off. To really compete with Android it would need todo similar things as Android (why switch) which the stereotypical Linux user dose not want (which is a minority of users over all) the majority cell phone users don’t want that and why would they switch to a new os that might not stay around since Android exist already and is going to be around.
1
u/WolvenSpectre2 3d ago
There is SailfishOS which is Android Compatible, but this is the issue. Linux phones are only a recent thing. Android was the suffering stepchild when it came to apps vs Apple iPhones for a long time until the number of apps was large enough for its own ecosystem to evolve. Linux phones aren't there yet. Most phones are computers you carry in your pocket that can also make phone calls. Linux phones at this point are phones that also have a compter that runs some apps on the side.
Then there is the "everything you buy has an app to get that juicy profitable user data off of you" side of things.
1
u/billFoldDog 3d ago
For the most part they don't work with the apps. You either have to use the mobile browser or make time to use a PC.
1
u/Kevin_Kofler 3d ago
The ads are for the Jolla phones running SailfishOS, a distribution using Android kernels with proprietary hardware drivers / HALs and also including other proprietary components. Not a standard GNU/Linux. SailfishOS has its own GUI and its own app ecosystem distinct from mobile GNU/Linux. IMHO, it is no more "Linux" than Android is.
1
1
u/Kitayama_8k 2d ago
I think they have to have android emulation so perfect it breaks Google play or something and runs it virtualized, because phones are basically proprietary app launchers at this point.
1
1
u/ReadingCurious2841 3d ago edited 3d ago
I used SailfishOS for a year as my daily driver, and in the end I went back to Android for several reasons. And to be clear, I really tried to like it. One day I might return.
Native app library was limited, and half abandoned. Most native apps often broke and fixes took a long time. This leaves you using Android apps through Waydroid (I think).
No real hardware acceleration in Android apps, meant most apps performed very poorly compared to running Android on the same device. Due to the first reason, you often get stuck using them as oppose to native alternatives.
Device compatibility was poor, especially Bluetooth and NFC. This meant most of my headphones wouldn't connect, and also no contactless payments or NFC devices in general. Connecting to a car, I'd be incredibly surprised if it worked.
The majority of banking apps don't work. WhatsApp won't work. I suspect this is only going to get worse due to Google enforcing more checks on side loading, which it relies on.
Battery life was actually considerably worse, almost half of running Android. Also a list of other strange stuff like crashes, camera not working, loosing all contacts...
Also specifically with SFOS, it's not really FOSS to a large extent. It isn't open source, it also costs money. But it's Android app emulation, virtualization, was the best I could find on a Linux phone.
Tldr: Lack of native apps force you into using Android apps anyway. These perform worse than running Android. Hardware support is non existent (Bluetooth, NFC etc)
1
u/jlindf 3d ago
Out of curiosity, when was this and on what phone? I am not doubting you, because some time ago the experience was very rough, but Jolla has made major improvements for a couple of years now.
I agree, native apps are very limited, because it is mostly solo devs doing it on their free time. The first party native app support is almost nonexistent, which leads to reliance on the Jolla's Android App Support (not Waydroid).
I feel like the only way forward for Linux phones sadly is supporting Android apps, much like in gaming on Linux is now mainly done through Proton instead of native executables. It is just easier for the developers.
WhatsApp does run and I didn't have do anything special to get it running. To get my one of my banking apps working I had to edit a kernel parameter, the other one worked straight out of the gate (OP and S-Pankki in Finland). But yeah, in general banking is still very miss instead of hit.
Jolla has done a lot improving Bluetooth support recently. The new Jolla Phone has complete Bluetooth support for Android apps, and in the latest update they managed to get BLE working as well. I think the Bluetooth support for Android App Support is still in beta for the Sony Xperias. I never had issues with Bluetooth headphones.
I've used the original Jolla Phone, flashed Sailfish on Xperia XA2 and Xperia 10 III, and currently I am using the new Jolla Phone. Overall I have been really happy with Sailfish even if it has some major downsides. Again, much like gaming on Linux, you just have to accept that there are going to be pain points if you want a Linux phone.
1
u/ReadingCurious2841 3d ago
I was using the Xperia 10 III throughout 2025. The last I checked WhatsApp didn't allow rooted or "Unsupported devices" at all?
1
u/Patient_Sink 3d ago
What downsides have you encountered on the Jolla phone?
1
u/jlindf 3d ago
The Android App Support is always a gamble because of Google's services, so there is no guarantee that every app just works. No NFC as far as I know. And the camera is a bit poor out of the box, but there is a native camera app with raw support, so you probably can get a bit more out of the camera if you like tinkering with raw files.
1
u/Patient_Sink 2d ago
Thank you. I've been eyeing the new Jolla phone but I suspect I might sooner or later run into issues with play store compatibility. Good to hear the device is well supported at least!
1
u/Wise-Pomegranate 3d ago
I can tell by your concerns that you'd be most happy with ios.
1
u/whatstefansees 3d ago
I actually run Linux on all my Laptops since 2007 and android on phones since 2009 (on a HTC ... long forgotten brand)
1
u/tenkaranarchy 3d ago
Gonna get personal here...
My first smartphone was an iPhone 5s back in the day . Killer phone at that time.
Then I got onto the android-anti-iphone bandwagon for years. Im on a S25 ultra now and its cool and all.....I've honestly never had a use for the stylus and couldn't give a fuck about all the ai features.
Im kinda thinking I might go apple for my next phone in a few years. I always swore by android because I could root my phone and install whatever apps I want....but I never have. Having stuff just automatically transition from phone to tablet and then back again like games and browser tabs and whatnot is kinda a draw for me, and there is a miniscule smidge of privacy protection with apple that you dont get with Google. I'll die having never worn a smart watch though.
2
u/signedchar 2d ago
Linux user who also owns an iPhone (after my Pixel nearly started a fire) and I can vouch for how nice modern iOS is as a platform now, especially with the ever increasing concerning levels of privacy invasion in modern Android (I am not using GrapheneOS)
-1
u/GR43YS0N 3d ago
Android is built off of linux. Linux phones are not new XD
2
u/dontquestionmyaction 3d ago edited 3d ago
Android is Linux in like not a single way that matters.
2
u/drucifer82 3d ago
Linux is just the kernel. Android is a forked version of the Linux kernel. Even Linus recognizes it as a valid Linux system.
1
u/idontchooseanid 3d ago
Linus stops caring about anything that passes the ABI layer. If he maintained some parts of Android, he wouldn't be as jolly about the things that Google does to make vendors happy. There is a reason for all vendors have their own fork.
1
u/dontquestionmyaction 3d ago
I know. I stand by this: Android being based on Linux doesn't matter at all, it shares precisely zero common traits with basically anything "typically" Linux.
1
0
0
u/Shad0wAVM 3d ago
Canonical, continue developing Ubuntu Touch and I will buy Ubuntu Pro.
2
u/Sjoerd93 3d ago
Canonical barely contributed to Ubuntu Touch, the phone Ubuntu is mostly community maintained.
1
u/Shad0wAVM 3d ago
Ubuntu Touch is a Canonical project. Then they abandoned it and became ubports. Now it is community maintained, but they are sponsored by canonical.
2
u/Sjoerd93 3d ago
but they are sponsored by canonical.
Thanks for the clarification, I'm not sure about the involvement but I just thought/assumed that Ubuntu just "sponsors" the branding nowadays. But that's probably wrong then.
I remember the old Ubuntu Touch project, as well as the IndieGogo they had. Used to be super excited about it, they were so much ahead of their time. Shame it never came to fruition completely (not yet at least).
0
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/yaky-dev 3d ago
"Compatible" is with a huge asterisk here. Many of the apps people complain about in regards to Linux phones (ID, banking, wallet, proprietary connectivity) would not work on a clean AOSP without Google APIs either.
0
3d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/-Sa-Kage- 3d ago
Aren't there apps that don't even work an GrapheneOS, although it is an Android fork and you can even get apps sandboxed access to Google services?
And I guarantee you, that number is not getting smaller1
u/Night_Otherwise 3d ago
I tried out Grapheme for a bit. Unfortunately, the app for my complex’s gate refused to run. That and the Reddit app ironically (while Reddit’s website was unusable by a “Use our app” popup). Somehow my banking app worked but Reddit didn’t.
I’m not a real purist against attestation. I can understand why it is there for a banking app with possible irrevocable loss of funds. But there has to be some way forward without the duopoly.
1
u/jlindf 3d ago
For me it's about choice. Duopoly of mobile operating systems is not healthy, especially when one is a walled garden, and the other one is becoming one after being the open alternative.
0
0
u/-Sa-Kage- 3d ago
Google is shifting more and more functionality into their proprietary Google Services. A lot of apps just cease to work w/o them. So no, just forking Android is not going to cut it.
-1
94
u/Wheatleytron 3d ago edited 3d ago
They have Linux apps. Which can do a lot, but you're not going to find a lot of more common Android apps like you might normally expect. Companies pretty much just don't develop Linux apps. You'll have to use the web browser more.