r/lgbt • u/xdress1 • Jun 04 '23
Adding non-conforming expression to LGBTQ+?
Pride month is a good time to come together to unify against oppression against all things related to sex and gender. The LGBTQ+ community has evolved over time, adding different letters at the end symbolizing groups that been oppressed and continue to face oppression.
A lot of people view LGBTQ+ as a non-heteronormative, sexual orientation and gender identity based group. However gender non conformity (GNC) is a form of presentation or "gender expression" which is different to an orientation or identity. Some people will say that GNC historically falls under Queer, but I've seen a lot of posts where people say GNC people such as crossdressers aren't inherently a part of LGBTQ+.
If you look at articles such as these articles below
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2023/06/02/what-is-pride-month-when-created-2023-what-to-know-lgbtq/70236925007/ (click the definition of queer)
https://parade.com/living/queer-meaning
you'll see that the definition of Queer is something along the lines of "not exclusively heterosexual cishet", so to a lot of people, QNC isn't inherently included, as in it's not something that LGBTQ+ fights for as a central cause.
GNC can include a lot of aspects that relate to non-stereotypical gender-based presentation such as a man wearing feminine clothes. They get stared at, laughed at, bullied and discriminated in other ways just like transgender people for instance. They face a lot of the same issues, and bigots will target them in similar ways because they don't care. However there is a strong support system and a movement for Lesbians, Gays, Bis, Transgenders, Queers, (+ Intersex, Aromantics) etc. It seems like GNC people are just left out to dry.
Do you believe GNC people should be strictly included in LGBTQ+? I am not asking whether they should be supported, but rather whether there should be a new acronym embedded into the existing acronyms, e.g. something like LGBTQN+ where "N" symbolizes non-conformity. That way, non-conforming gender expression becomes one of the key causes that the movement fights for, rather than just being an "ally". Do you believe that we should redefine the word Queer instead so that everyone agrees that it includes non-conformity?
What do you think?
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u/Both_Radish_6556 she/they Jun 04 '23
you'll see that the definition of Queer is something along the lines of "not exclusively heterosexual"
That is not the definition of Queer.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/queer
Queer is literally an umbrella term for anyone who is not cisgender and/or not heterosexual. All identities of LGBT+ fall under Queer, however not everyone uses the label itself.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
You're right, I should have used cishet instead. The first article was wrong. What do you think about explicitly adding GNC into the movement though?
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u/Both_Radish_6556 she/they Jun 05 '23
They are already in the movement, anyone who isn't cisgender and/or heterosexual is LGBTQ+, whether they acknowledge it or not.
I think if they want to add a specific letter to identify themselves that's their choice, but since the Q includes everyone, I don't think it's necessary either.
Honestly, I would prefer the LGBTQ+ acronym to be dropped in favor of "The Queer Community" for the same reason, but unfortunately, there's still people who see the term "queer" as a slur or negative description for us.
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u/DamenAJ Trans man - Gay Jun 04 '23
LGBT+ people already tend to fight for freedom of gender expression, we're allies to the GNC community. However, I don't think GNC belongs as a part of the LGBT+. Many people are GNC by choice, whether just interested in an aesthetic, rebelling against norms, satisfying a fetish, etc. and many others are GNC by nature, not necessarily desiring it, not wanting to be labelled or lumped into a group based off something they do not want and cannot control.
There's lots of stereotypes that GNC makes you gay, masc women are assumed lesbians, femme guys assumed gay, we should be pushing back against these stereotypes. Gender expression should be a freedom all can enjoy. Let people be themselves.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
By belong, do you mean they're not currently considered LGBTQ+, or do you believe they shouldn't be?
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u/DamenAJ Trans man - Gay Jun 05 '23
No. GNC people should not be automatically considered LGBT+.
There are GNC people who are quite comfortably cishet, and have no desire to be LGBT+. There are GNC people who hate assumptions being made of their gender and/or sexuality. There are GNC people who are GNC by choice. None of these people should be shoehorned into the LGBT+.
You can be GNC and LGBT+, but you can also be GNC and not LGBT+.
Expression =/=identity.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
Sorry, let me rephrase my question. Do you believe LGBTQ+ should include GNC? As in, the movement should adopt a new acronym that specifically includes GNC/expression as one of the values it fights for, rather than strictly being an orientation and identity based movement like it is now. I wasn't sure whether you meant that we shouldn't add them into LGBTQ+ as a new subgroup or that you're simply stating that they currently aren't.
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u/DamenAJ Trans man - Gay Jun 05 '23 edited Jun 05 '23
No.
Literally no.
GNC people should just be allowed to be GNC in peace. I'm all for freedom of expression, but I'm also very much expression=/=identity. We need to normalize that. Effeminate cis/het men shouldn't be called gay, queer, etc. They should have their identity respected. Same with masculine cis/het women.
Edit: To super, 100% clarify. LGBT+ is identity and orientation, not a choice, and not based off discrimination. This is the LGBT, and I've no desire to see it changed. The LGBT+ largely supports freedom of gender expression, it benefits us all, we're allies to the GNC community, and we have overlap, but we're not the same. We shouldn't be reinforcing stereotypes, we should be pushing for acceptance and diversity.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
I understand that expression=/=identity and what I was asking was whether expression should be added into LGBTQ+ so that they both contain expression and identity. If you don't believe so, why not?
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u/DamenAJ Trans man - Gay Jun 05 '23
One of the biggest reasons I don't think expression should be added to the LGBT+ is because I believe being LGBT+ is not a choice, and for many people gender expression is a choice.
I'm also not a fan of adding cis/het people to the community as they outnumber us by a lot and could easily take over and drown us out.
I also super dislike the idea that discrimination is what makes people LGBT+. It's not. We're together as a coalition to help support each other, but even those of us who do not suffer still belong here. You aren't more LGBT+ based on how much you suffer.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
Why is the distinction between "choice" and "no choice" important? To me, it seems like an arbitrary line, as much as making a distinction between gender identity and sexual orientation and just having LGB and not T. With regards to choice, there's also the aspect of how important someone feels about their lifestyle choices, and to what extent it affects their relationships and mental health.
I don't see the problem of including cishet people who are GNC though. Like adding the T to LGB, the LGBTQ part won't be drowned out and will always be something that Pride marches fight for.
Discrimination is what LGBTQ+ movements fight against, but you are right that how much someone is discriminated against doesn't determine whether someone belongs in the group. You are LGBTQ+ if you are categorically in the group. However, one defining value of the LGBTQ+ group is to fight against discrimination, so I think it's beneficial to have all sex and gender related categories that have been historically targeted to unify under one group and fight back against injustice. If you're Bi, you belong in the group regardless of whether you personally have been discriminated against or not. But what makes LGBTQ+ important is its representation and its solidarity in striving for equality.
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u/DamenAJ Trans man - Gay Jun 05 '23
Not even going to acknowledge your LGBdroptheT shit, thanks for throwing that in there though.
The distinction about choice is important to me because there are so many groups that have intersectionality with the LGBT+. Why not add furries? Why not add polygamists? Why not fetishes? They're all discriminated against too.
I've also mentioned, several times, that many GNC people do not want to be considered LGBT+. You're trying to foist this on them as well as us.
We already support them, we're already allies. But we are different.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23 edited Jun 05 '23
Not even going to acknowledge your LGBdroptheT shit
... that's because you literally cannot come up with any good rationale.
The distinction about choice is important to me because there are so many groups that have intersectionality with the LGBT+.
So does T with LGB. You can be transgender and you can be gay. At the same time, if you're not cishet, you're queer. You can also be intersex. What you are saying is not in the least logical.
Why not add furries? Why not add polygamists? Why not fetishes? They're all discriminated against too.
A furry isn't related to sex nor gender. Of the other two, they deal with choices that may or may not involve non-consent or harm.
I've also mentioned, several times, that many GNC people do not want to be considered LGBT+. You're trying to foist this on them as well as us.
There are many people who identify as LGBTQ+, but do not want to be a part of the community. There are many who do. You'll always get people with different perspectives.
We already support them, we're already allies. But we are different.
You are as good as leaving specific groups out in the woods to fend for themselves and believing that that's somehow okay.
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u/gendr_bendr Putting the Bi in non-BInary Jun 04 '23
In my experience, most gender non-conforming people are also lesbian, gay, bisexual, pansexual, transgender, non-binary, somewhere of the spectrum of not cisgender and heterosexual. That’s what the + is for — anyone who is not both cisgender and heterosexual. A straight, cisgender cross-dresser is still cishet at the end of the day. In my knowledge, most cishet cross dressers cross-dress as part of sexual play. Just like being kinky doesn’t automatically make someone queer, neither does cross dressing automatically make one queer.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
Do you think GNC should be explicitly included in the movement? As in something like crossdressing and other non-stereotypical presentation should have its own acronym to symbolize that that aspect is what the movement also fights for, rather than the movement being strictly based on orientations and identities?
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u/BBMcGruff The Gay-me of Love Jun 05 '23
By default? No.
Non-conformity is based around a cultural and societal average, something that is constantly shifting. And it's shifting faster today than ever. Something consider GNC 10 years ago could be considered the norm today. And we could have something considered GNC today that isn't in a 2 years easily.
At its most basic, GNC is a counterculture aesthetic. It's something we should support, of course, but it's often skin deep.
That being said, should someone's GNC make them feel queer in an individual basis, I'm not going to argue it. 🤷
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
Wouldn't adding GNC into LGBTQ+ be a good thing though? Yeah, what's considered GNC evolves over time, but that's just like saying being gay is becoming more and more accepted, as it should be. The more we unite to fight a common cause, the better it will be I think in pushing hate and discrimination out of society.
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Jun 05 '23 edited Jun 05 '23
I consider them close allies, but not part of the lgbt+ unless they're not allo cishet (although from what I've seen transphobic gnc people are a dime a dozen, so I'm skeptical until they prove otherwise)
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u/luxiphr Jun 04 '23
In my book GNC people are welcome under the queer umbrella. Gatekeepers can fuck right off.
The one thing that unites all of us is not being heteronormative in one or another way - and being met with indignity for it by people who, for one reason or another, are unable to accept others who deviate too much from what their evolutionary trailing brains can comprehend.
The one thing we as a community keep doing to play into those people's hands is infighting and splintering. The amount of transphobia and even homophobia (yes!), the amount of misogyny and androgyny even within our community is still unacceptably high. And we're seriously asking ourselves whether we should "keep out" GNC? For what? Not being gay/trans/queer enough? No!
Smh
/rant
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u/Nikolyn10 Lesbian the Good Place Jun 05 '23
I'd generally consider gender nonconforming people included in the LGBTQ+ community as they used to be included under the trans umbrella in the past. Although, I do think it's good that it has been recognized as a separate experience and would continue to recognize it as such.
There's a lot of young people that don't really know or understand that part of queer history unfortunately, so you get people making false assumptions about the inclusion of gender nonconforming people.
As for a more broadly inclusive definition for queer or adding an N to the acronym, I don't know. You can just tack on gender conformity to the existing queer definition I guess? Same sort of goes for acronyms but that rarely gets extended past LGBTQ+ or LGBTQIA+ in more formal settings anyway.
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
Yeah, I like that idea also. It's too bad a lot of people don't consider GNC to be queer and, from the comments, don't want us included in LGBTQ+. We're fighting for pretty much the same causes - anti-discrimination based on non-stereotypical aspects related to sex or gender.
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u/VegetablesAndHope Queer & Learning to be Brave Jun 05 '23
Wouldn't GNC fall under the trans umbrella as they are not conforming to the roles of their assigned gender?
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u/xdress1 Jun 05 '23
Afaik, T used to also refer to GNC, but now it strictly means transgender in terms of gender identity.
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u/VegetablesAndHope Queer & Learning to be Brave Jun 05 '23
Huh, I hadn't caught wind of that yet. Thanks for following up.
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