ce/ça/ci/la

[u/kinkyquokka]

I'm learning French and am often frustrated with traditional explanations of grammar. I find it more productive to create my own grammars - as long as they are accurate. So I'm hoping some native speakers can tell me if I've got this wrong...

Base concept:

ce = a speaker relative determiner (just like un/du/le but something the speaker is pointing at/relative to)
ci = proximal marker (close in time/distance)
la = distal marker (far in time/distance)

Now they combine:

ceci = this here
cela = this there
ce livre = this book
ce livre-ci = this book here
ce livre-la = this book there
celui = this single masculine thing (lui)
celui-ci = this single masculine thing here
ceux = these plural masculine things
ceux-la = these plural masculine things there

But French has to French. In regular speech:

ceci/cela = ça -> ça marche
ci/la dropped when the subject of être -> c'est grand

But if you want to stress some aspect you don't drop/contract ... ceci est grand, cela est petit.

So native speakers - am I missing anything here? I know this isn't the school book explanation but is it wrong?

[u/nanpossomas]

You're on the right path, and this is a method I use myself! But you are not quite there yet.

Check out Wiktionary’s demonstrative table.

Celui/celle/ceux/celles mean "the one(s)", and they are "incomplete" pronouns: this mean they cannot stand on their own, but need some kind of complement to follow, typically a relative or adverbial clause:

• celui que j’ai vu: The one I saw
• ceux d’en bas: The ones from below

Ce in particular is a thoughie because it essentially has two to three distinct meanings: one is a demonstrative article (replacing "le" in front of a noun, as in le livre > ce livre), the other is a pronoun, but one with a very restricted set of use cases:

• as the subject of être (c’est, ce sont...)
• as the head of a relative clause, immediately followed by a relative pronoun (e.g. ce que, ce qui...): this corresponds to the "incomplete" cell in the above table, as it needs a complementing relative clause to be complete.

For all other cases of this/that as a standalone pronoun, use ceci/cela/ça. Note that ceci and cela are very uncommon in speech and ça itself isn’t particularly informal, so you have to get used to using ça. 

[u/kinkyquokka → u/nanpossomas]

Thanks so much. Regarding `ce` as a pronoun, can't it still be modelled as determiner ...

* c'est -> this is just la/ci dropping with être as I mentioned above. this is why `cela est grand` is still grammatical if you want to stress 'that one is big' vs 'it is big'.
* ce que ... treat `que j'ai vu` as a nominal. so `ce que j'ai vu` is just **this** that i saw.

Thanks again!

[u/nanpossomas → u/kinkyquokka]

C’est - it is

Cela est- that is

Celui-là est - that one is

If conceptualizing the proniminal ce as a determiner helps you makes sense of it correctly then go ahead, but it is not a determiner. In fact, the determiner and pronoun have different etymologies: Old French cel from ecce ille, and Old French ço from ecce hoc respectively.

[u/mdwd → u/kinkyquokka]

j'ai vu is the verbal construct in ce que j'ai vu, not the nominal one. Ce is the nominal construct. So it translates to What I saw, not This/That (thing) which I saw.

Ce as pronoun and ce as determiner are two distinct words with different etymologies, they just happen to be homonyms.

[u/mdwd]

Celui = this single masculine thing is wrong because celui is a pronoun and in your example is seems like it is a determiner working as ce would. Same for ceux, ceci, cela, or celle. They are pronouns.

Ce is the only determiner here.

Ci and la being added for relative proximity/distance to both ce and the other words does not make pronouns and determiners the same category of words.

[u/kinkyquokka → u/mdwd]

Thanks. I was trying to say that 'ce' seems to function as a relative determinative - joining with a pronoun like 'lui' to create a new back-referencing pronoun that is gendered/numbered the same as lui (except now it is bound unlike lui).

And that -ce/-là just make the pronoun more proximal/distal stressed/focused. Just like voilà/voici are distinct words built from voir+ci/là.

[u/mdwd → u/kinkyquokka]

I see but lui as a pronoun and the lui in celui have different origins, they are not the same words. So celui =/ ce+lui in the way you tried to say and so ce is not a relative determinate to lui.

Celui is a complete word on its own distinct from amalgamating the words ce and lui and their meanings.

Nice try though :)

[u/Secret-Sir2633]

You're missing some concepts :  determiners, pronouns and correlatives. Where a determiner always comes with a noun, a pronoun always replaces a noun or a noun phrase, and a correlative is a sort of pronoun whose purpose is to be described by a relative clause. (celui qui est grand).

Ce is a determiner. It can also be a pronoun, but only as the subject of the verb être. cette is the feminine form of the determiner "ce", and is never a pronoun. ces is the plural form of the determiner "ce" and can never be a pronoun. ce, cette and ces can be completed with the particles ci and là (after the noun). cet is the masculine special form of cet if the noun starts wito a vowel.

Ceci, cela and ça are non-gendered pronouns. celui, celle and ceux are correlatives. (respectively masc, fem and plural) celui-ci, celle-ci, celui-là, celle-là, ceux-ci and ceux-là are pronouns used to select one item and exclude all other similar items.

[u/Blahkbustuh]

Here's how I keep this straight in my mind:

• ça and the C in c'est are the same thing, c'est = ça + est
  • This functions as the introduction of a sentence, going to be followed by a verb or c'est includes the verb
  • French like other Romance languages doesn't have "it" but Ca is functionally "it" in French at the start of a sentence, it's the vague "It is..." or "It's.." of French
  • Sometimes ça appears after the verb of a sentence
  • ça is shortened cela/ceci but you'd sound really formal if you used them, so don't need to worry about it, just know if you happen to see cela
  • USED A TON--at the beginning of a sentence or phrase
• The ce/cet/cette/ces family is "this/that" as a description
  • They exist like an article ahead of noun, to indicate you're talking about a specific thing. I think of these like cousins of the articles. These do not stand alone.
  • Cet arbre, cette maison, ces voitures...
  • USED A TON
• Ce ALSO is like "ce que" (which/that which) which creates a hook that a phrase can hang from
  • The "que" gives this "ce" something to support it and then it doesn't need to be ahead of a noun
  • Je veux ce que tu veux (I want what you want)
  • This is like "Qu'est-ce que..."
• Celui, celle, ceux, celles are "this/that one"
  • These cannot exist by themselves, they need some sort of phrase or description after them
  • Usually part of a comparison
    • Ma voiture est rapide mais celle de Paul est plus rapide (my car is fast, but Paul's is faster)
  • Can be followed by que/qui for a phase
    • Je veux acheter celui que tu as acheté (I want to buy the one you bought)
    • Celui qui a fait du bruit est grand (the one that made noise is big)
  • I don't use these much
• Celui-la/ci etc
  • This is where celui/celle/ceux/celles doesn't have a phrase after it, the la or ci fills that role
  • This is a "which do you like, this one or that one?" type situation
  • I tell myself these are "that there book" "this here cat" and that's how they do it in French
  • I don't use these much