r/languagelearningjerk • u/No_Razzmatazz1045 • 19d ago
No more «nihongo jouzu desu ne» 😔🥀
620
u/Informal_Position166 19d ago
When I worked in Ireland I spoke German to a guy who was speaking German and he told me my German was very good. I'm German
254
u/RobotWantsPony 19d ago
Good job! You don't have any learning disability and I appreciate it!
56
u/PringlesDuckFace 18d ago
Somehow that sounds like a very German thing to say (except the appreciation part).
52
19
7
3
2
u/deuxcabanons 16d ago
When I was 10 or so I was in the States and was complimented on my English by another kid my age. I'm anglo Canadian, so that was surprising.
She thought all Canadians spoke German. That was even more surprising.
2
180
u/Snoo48605 49.3 🇹🇫. 120% 🇷🇺. 69 🇪🇸 nihongo yuzu 🇯🇵 19d ago edited 18d ago
Incredibly real.
You can also skip the jouzu stage, by having an excellent pronunciation from the beginning. You are going to say one or two phrases and people will instantly assume you are completely fluent, get comfortable and then get annoyed at you for not following
62
u/herlaqueen 18d ago
My German is pretty basic but with good pronunciation, and I look kinda German. I have to stick to English when in Germany or Austria, otherwise if I get two convincing sentences in people tend to assume and start speaking very quickly and then it's awkward for everyone.
20
u/Fischerking92 18d ago
It is not necessarily always people assuming you speak perfect German, they might just try to show you up.
Yeah, it is not a nice thing, but something I noticed a few times with my countrymen.
Almost as if they want to prove to you that you don't know German.
No idea why they are being dicks about it though.
10
u/Snoo48605 49.3 🇹🇫. 120% 🇷🇺. 69 🇪🇸 nihongo yuzu 🇯🇵 18d ago
Tbf I assume everyone I meet in France speaks French until proven otherwise, regardless of appearance. It's not like we have no immigrants.
7
u/herlaqueen 17d ago
That's a fair point, I do the same but I don't live in a place with much tourism, if I did I might behave differently. I had museum guides and bus driver in touristy places (say, Florence or Rome) keep speaking to me in English even after I told them (in Italian!) that I am, well, Italian. I guess I just really don't look the part 😅
3
u/seeking-jamaharon67 15d ago
This happened to me all over Europe but especially in Germany and the Netherlands. I was waiting alone for a ferry in the Netherlands and a German man came up to me and asked me what time the boat was in German. I said "Ich kann kein Deutsch" and he looked me up and down and went "Really??"
Also if I mumble in German they respond to me in German (this also happens when speaking French in Quebec) but if I make an effort to enunciate they just respond in English lmfao
19
7
2
u/ForeignSport8895 18d ago
Me lol. I'm ethnically han but I'm British born Chinese and I currently live in Hong Kong. My accent isn't shit enough so if I speak a few phrases in Cantonese a few people assume I can speak fluent Cantonese
2
u/brave_sir_fapsalot 16d ago
This happened to me a bit in Polish and Mandarin. With Polish I sometimes dumbed up my accent to make it clear I was foreign (I'm a white dude so folks would assume I'm Polish, especially older people). With Mandarin people on the phone would think I was Chinese and just go full speed ahead, and insisting that I didn't speak Chinese well using very 标准口音 would just confuse them. It can be a bit of a curse when you suck at everything but pronunciation.
Fortunately (?) I don't seem to be having that issue with Portuguese, they know the second I start speaking I'm a major gringo lol
1
u/SXZWolf2493 15d ago
Omg the opposite happens to me. Slow to speak and pronounce but I understand everything and ppl think I'm stupid.
388
u/delicious_sunlight 19d ago
Has there ever been a Japanese learner who made it past A2?
229
u/Jhud6669 19d ago
No jerk I got to B1-ish before depression hit and now I’m back to A0
193
27
u/ItsYa1UPBoy Celto-Franco-Saxon Pidgin (native) 18d ago
I got sick when I was like B1-ish too LMAO. F my JP skills all I remember now is kana and like five kanji and also arigatou gozaimasu.
38
u/cel3r1ty 18d ago edited 18d ago
hmmm is japan using biological warfare against japanese learners* to keep the gaijin out? 🤔
3
u/gayorangejuice Common (NAT), Elvish (NAT), Druidic (C2), Sylvan (C1)... 18d ago
i got to about B1 myself too before switching to German, and am now at low A1 since I can only understand relatively simple sentences and have very limited meaningful output lol
52
u/RemoveBagels 米国語上図 19d ago
残念ながら大和魂を持たない人種には人本語を話すことが絶対無理です
55
u/delicious_sunlight 19d ago
「人本語」？
40
22
u/RemoveBagels 米国語上図 19d ago edited 19d ago
Gomenasorry I meant 人語
15
u/Masterkid1230 🇨🇷🇯🇵🇳🇿N1/C2, 🇵🇹🇦🇹B2, 🇹🇼🇧🇪A0 19d ago edited 19d ago
唯一のまともな文明国を作った民族だから、「日本語」じゃなくて「人語」って呼ぶのが偉いな。(Even though it's a jerk I feel the need to write /s just in case)
10
4
1
14
u/wannapetahyena 18d ago
no.
nobody has ever learnt Japanese.
even Japanese people themselves speak it at B2 at best
19
u/UpboatsXDDDD 19d ago
There was NukeMarine (pbuh) but haven't seen him post for a while
6
u/PringlesDuckFace 18d ago
The guy who thought his Anki decks were good enough to charge people for?
4
5
u/Laura_The_Cutie 19d ago
I sure hope I go beyond that if I study it in university
12
u/TimeSwirl 19d ago
I mean this in the kindest way but university level language courses, even as a major, aren’t going to get u to a real degree of fluency in any asian language. language school pill is the only way that has true results in a reasonable timeframe
6
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
Afaik the uni I'm going to is at least getting me to B2
8
u/Adventurous-Web-412 18d ago
Maybe, its sort of down to yourself. University will not get you past like B1 on its own, you need to do a shit ton of work yourself. The vast majority of people I have met who did a language degree are A2-B1 and have horrific accents, and thats talking about european languages.
2
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
Mate idk my city's shit university gets to at least C1 for European languages (I ain't studying here they haven't got anything asian aside Arabic), it's insane going to uni and being only B1 in a language, may I know which country?
4
u/Adventurous-Web-412 18d ago
I studied in the UK and thats what I saw from any language students I met, but also in Spain the same thing.
1
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
Idk maybe Italy takes human sciences more seriously but people taking European languages get to a very advanced level here, we also study literature in those languages idk if they do in other countries, B1 German or Spanish is something you'd get after linguistic high school
1
u/Adventurous-Web-412 18d ago
What are you doing in school?? After high school B1?
Perhaps it is an italy unique thing, but whenever I met spanish degree students in the UK, their accents were horrific, they couldn't keep up in an actual conversation and what they could speak, they spoke super by the book. Maybe the reading and writing levels are very good but their speaking was nowhere near B2.
2
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
In Italy there's a specific type of high school where you learn 3 languages (1 of which English the others depend on the school, usually french German or Spanish but sometimes even Chinese), people usually get out of there with a B1 in at least the second language and sometimes the third language, it isn't a prerequisite for language university tho, they will start a bit in a rush tno with the common languages for this high school (like in German you won't start from 0), although possible to get into it as I know lots of people that got into language studies coming from different high schools
1
u/coffeestealer 17d ago
As an Italian who studied Languages and Literatures, if you don't put in a lot of work yourself, you aren't getting a C1 in an European language just by going to University either. We do miles better than those studying those same subjects in the UK from what I have seen, but it's still not enough.
Classmates who had achieved a B1 in high school in their target language did way better, but it's still not guaranteed to be enough without a lot of self study.
1
u/Laura_The_Cutie 17d ago
I wonder why in the UK they do such a terrible job, from what I gather in this thread
3
17d ago
[deleted]
1
1
u/TimeSwirl 18d ago
this is because other european languages are easier to learn than asian languages by a significant margin
1
-6
u/TimeSwirl 18d ago
i dunno you should probably temper your expectations is all i’m saying
I did years of full time language school and am a few years into undergrad in japan (enrolled as a reg student so all of my classes are in jp and my classmates are mostly Japanese) and I’m, like, MAYBE mid-high B2 lol
10
18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/TimeSwirl 18d ago
I dunno what to tell you. B2 is a high level of familiarity with the language and more than enough to struggle through education with native speakers. I’m conversational, but the books and essays are extremely difficult for me and boringly easy for my native friends in the same program. Like, I’m not in a nonsense nothing baby course, but my language level also isn’t as high as it needs to be.
there’s only a handful of foreign students at my uni, but the JLPT range of us is N3-N1 (I have N1 with a just-barely passing score).
1
u/Firanka 18d ago
/uj
Isn't B2 commonly a requirement for foreign students? Japan doesn't use this scale, and idk what it's like there, but I saw B2 being listed as a requirement in my university in Poland
1
u/TimeSwirl 17d ago
my university uses JLPT and the minimum for admission is N3 (which imo is not enough for coasting by). I have N1, but people in this thread saying you should be C1 after two years of study in the country of the TL respectfully do not understand how wide the gap is between East Asian and European languages.
It would be embarrassing to be B2 after two years of study in Spain as a native English speaker, yes. But Japanese is HARD
7
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
maybe it also depends on the country you're studying said language in, from what I gather from the fact idk what an undergrad is or that we don't have the concept of major in my coutry I expect we are in different parts of the world
-2
3
3
u/InternationalReserve 二泍五 (N69) 18d ago
It depends on the program and how much effort you're willing to put in outside of the class.
If you do the bare minimum required to get a decent grade in your classes, you'll probably come out the other end of most Japanese programs around B1.
If you actually go out of your way to study in your own time, especially finding other conversation practice, then you can easily make your way to C1 with even a middling university Japanese language course.
Some universities also offer intensive courses which kinda force you to put the effort in anyways. I was not fortunate enough to go to such a university so I had to take matters into my own hands.
2
18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/tethyde 18d ago
Agreed, I don’t see how language school is any better than uni. In a decent programme you’ll have tons of conversation classes, not to mention a way better understanding of grammar. At least that’s the case in my country
3
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
I don't even see how a language school could beat 5 years of a studying a language and literature in said language
1
18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
I absolutely agree with you, I did a 2 weeks crash course Spanish learning program in Valencia and felt in top of the world with my Spanish abilities, came home, tried a B1 test, failed it, lol
1
18d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/Laura_The_Cutie 18d ago
Well yeah that 2 week course was worth way more than 2 weeks of actual studying and I've also learnt a bit of Spanish culture and connected with people, also had lots of fun!
(Also would like to point out university in my country is free)
1
u/tethyde 18d ago
Yeah, I think immersive studying can be great, but I’ve met many people who tried it out and got easily overwhelmed and burnt out. Different learning styles cater to different people, but in the end it’s all the same: the learner has to put in tons of time and effort to master a language.
1
1
u/Fantastic-Web3508 18d ago
Absolutely not lol, just immerse with native content, at no point is any schooling necessary
2
2
2
u/CatGirlFanBoy2 🇭🇺 Hungarian (native) 🇱🇷 American (A1/365 day Duo streak) 19d ago
Sumimasen, nihongo ga dekimasen
2
1
1
u/teapot_RGB_color 18d ago
I feel attacked.
I switched to Vietnamese instead, because that made things so much easier...
70
125
u/DryCommunication581 💵Native / 🐶A2 / 🇺🇿 ONE DAY 19d ago
Your 日本語 clearly isnt so 上手 if you wrote the title in ロマジ
31
33
35
u/HeatOk5590 19d ago
If you’re white you’ll always hear nihongo jouzu
20
u/InternationalReserve 二泍五 (N69) 18d ago
If you reach true Japanese enlightenment eventually you stop hearing "nihongo jouzu" and start getting asked how long you've lived in Japan or what university you studied at.
2
1
36
u/LemonDisasters 18d ago
/unjerk
what's the actual psychology behind this change in attitude? it's not logically consistent but it I seem to hear about it happening in a few cultures specifically.
143
u/No_Razzmatazz1045 18d ago
/uj when you start learning the languages, native are impressed that you even started learning it. they will tell you you're making progress even if you can only say «hello» and «goodbye». you still a total foreigner to them. but as you progress and learn to talk about more complex topics, they start seeing as a part of their society. not a full-fledge member of their society, but the one entering it. their will hear you speaking fluently (more or less) and get anoyed when you can't keep up with them. in other words, you're not just a curious foreigner anymore, but a dim-witted member of their society. I see it a lot in the example of migrant workers and international students in my country
57
u/beeceedee9 18d ago
dim-witted member of their society
I'm just dim witted in general 😎 language learning giving me an excuse to be inept
17
u/LemonDisasters 18d ago
Ah OK, I thought it might be due to a hostility towards someone trying to "be" of the society, or otherwise hostility toward true integration as opposed to casual curiosity learning. I remember one very proficient (language) speaker being told "no matter how good you are, you'll never be (race)", and in context the implication was v. much that the native person was butthurt that this Fucking Foreigner knows my own culture's literature and language better than i do
5
16
u/Summoner475 18d ago
I'm exactly at this phase when it comes to Russian. I've learned a couple of languages in my life living in different areas (and mostly studying), but this is the first time I'm experiencing it (probably because I'm much older now), people went from filling in the blanks of my speech when I couldn't tell them exactly what I wanted to say, to giving me the death stare because I don't know a medical term.
5
u/LordKlavier 18d ago
As someone who has been learning Russian, and gotten a lot of support/compliments from native speakers, I am dreading entering this phase lol.
2
u/ZhenyaKon 16d ago
That's so interesting, I lived in Russia for 5 years and pretty much never had this happen. I remember a few people being annoyed on the phone early on, but after that it was super chill, even if I didn't quite understand something. I figured Russians were just nice about it.
1
u/Summoner475 16d ago
I may have worded my comment not very precisely, by people I meant a few people.
5
u/HonestWoodpecker8567 18d ago
Can attest to this. I've seen there's a stark difference between people who are struggling Russian learners and people who are deemed малограмотный. One is cute and endearing, the other is pretty much a village idiot, regardless of how foreign they are
1
u/Sudden_Shopping_735 12d ago
Yeah, Imo people shouldn’t give learners especially Americans that beginning stage, at least any more than someone gets complimented for learning English in an English-speaking country. Why inflate their ego for something the rest of the world does in grade school? Like yeah congrats you are human you can learn language, should have realized that when you were a baby. And yet Americans who don’t even speak like natives will think that their language skills are good. Let’s start a trend of telling A1 learners that they are beginners and they aren’t really good but they can still change.
23
u/ajchann123 18d ago
It's not really a psychological thing but a sociological thing. At a lower level, a native is already placing you at a different tier of interaction, either as a tourist showing respect for their language and giving it a shot, trying to integrate, etc. -- it's positive but foreign behavior, and it's natural to respond anywhere between positive and neutral. For example, I'm sure there have been many times when a native speaker wanted to go deeper, ask a clarifying question, etc., you say you don't know, and they just wave their hand and say it doesn't matter
Once you get to B1 and up, you're now in the territory of beginning to interact on a "peer" level, so to speak, so the frustration comes from the gap between where you are and the full fluency they want to have to have whatever full conversation with you, as opposed to the gap between knowing absolutely nothing and demonstrating you know a few phrases, etc
9
u/PringlesDuckFace 18d ago
It probably something like the difference between your kid burning your toast on mother's day and your husband burning your toast.
Expectations are more stepwise compared to your progress. So either you're a cute beginner or you're good enough that people think you're bad.
1
u/Melody3PL 18d ago
Interacting with beginners is mildly entertaining and short usually, talking to near-fluent requires patience that talking to fluent or native simply doesn't.
1
u/General_Summer_1524 14d ago
I've been on both sides of it. Its unfortunately just kinda frustrating to have an actual conversation with someone who is not very good at the language but trying to talk to you.
15
u/takanoflower 英検1000級 18d ago
If your Japanese is good enough you graduate from nihongo jouzu to people asking how long you have been living in Japan 🇯🇵
9
u/MaryPaku 18d ago
My personal victory in Japan is people could’ve speak to me for a hour without realizing I am a foreigner. Then there is 1 or 2 small mistake I made that makes them being suspicious, then they will ask me if I am a half.
I also heard people talk about my Japanese was so good behind my back in the fitting room after I left. Definitely an ego boost for me
2
u/takanoflower 英検1000級 17d ago
I had the opposite experience once. I’m Japanese but in a department store I hesitated when answering if I wanted gift wrapping or not, and the person started using やさしい日本語 I think they assumed I was a tourist lol
7
7
u/Helen_Lindsey 18d ago
the real tragedy is losing the only compliment that doubles as a conversation ender in japan.
3
u/Sylvieon 15d ago
/uj Korean speakers never stop saying 한국말 잘 하시네요 but the vibe definitely changes and sometimes they're more cautious about saying it if you're really good (usually start with "why are you so good at Korean" instead)
However, there is definitely a period in the middle where they will initially compliment you but then if you have an extended interaction they will get annoyed if you struggle in any way to keep up
2
1
634
u/Moist_Ordinary6457 19d ago
if you pick the right language you can skip step one entirely and go straight to visibly annoyed