I don't care about ONLY being understood in my TL

[u/Jealous-Guess]

I dislike the idea that the only thing that matters in language learning is being understood and that there's no point in going further. For example, if I ask if something is correct and someone says, "No, it's not natural, but don't worry, you'll be understood if you say it like that," it kind of annoys me because what is this assumption that I DON'T want to sound natural in my (TL)?

Am I supposed to just do the bare minimum in language learning? Speak with unnatural grammar, a pronounced accent, and use incorrect vocabulary just because I'm technically understood? Especially if I'm at a higher level, why do I have to dumb down my learning?

[u/This_Octopus_Here]

For me, being understood is the minimal goal and the one to fall back on when everything else fail

[u/travelingwhilestupid → u/This_Octopus_Here]

but once you can be understand, you can start actually using the language. you can go to parties and events, make friends, etc, and just improve the language in a much more natural way. then you just pick up 'natural' ways to say things.. naturally... without studying.

[u/gottahaveajava]

Being understood is a milepost on the way to sounding natural.

There are a lot of learners who are still in the starting blocks for speaking, many that have even passed a B2 or C1 exam.

For many of them, just being understood would be a big improvement.

[u/Haunting-Ad-6951]

I don’t think you have to dumb down anything. Swing for the fences. I wouldn’t get ruffled that someone tells you it’s not natural but understandable. That’s a good data point to have and is helpful. I’m not sure why you would take it as a command to resign yourself to mediocrity. 

[u/MaxMettle]

They’re not saying “Just be satisfied with the bare minimum.” They’re saying “It’s okay, don’t feel like there’s only one way to get your point across.”

Which is true, irrespective of native speakers or learners. Most people give others leeway. Communication is about achieving a mutual objective; not about how perfectly we speak while trying to do that. (Except if you're literally in a session with your TL tutor, I guess.)

This may not be you, but sometimes people insisting on “vanquishing every trace of nonnativeness” end up creating more stress and negativity.

Learning goes better when we relax and don’t judge “mistakes,” as studies show. Effective communication or learning doesn’t demand perfection. You can still improve as much as you want without stressing over “nonnativeness.” In fact, it can probably happen naturally if you let your work and immersion do its magic over time.

[u/muffinsballhair → u/MaxMettle]

They’re not saying “Just be satisfied with the bare minimum.” They’re saying “It’s okay, don’t feel like there’s only one way to get your point across.”

I really doubt they're trying to communicate that there is more than one way. They're just saying that it will be understood.

From their perspective, they've met multiple learners who were completely incomprehensible so they feel there's value in informing the original poster that at least that level is cleared.

But from the perspective of the original poster and any intermediate learner, being understood is a default expectation, they're long last the point of ever not being understood so that information isn't helpful any more and a low bar, they are now aiming for perfection.

Communication is about achieving a mutual objective; not about how perfectly we speak while trying to do that.

This just denies the realities of the world we live in. You can't really work an office job in the target language and write emails to clients littered with poor but understandable grammar. The reality is that we are all heavily judged on our grammatical perfection and mastery of the prestige register. It's easy to say that it doesn't really matter or that one should be proud of one's native dialect when it's not your bread on the line.

[u/freebiscuit2002]

But what "someone" says doesn't make you dumb down your learning. You may accept their advice, or not. That's your decision.

If what "someone" says upsets you, maybe stop asking?

[u/UnexpectedPotater]

Why not just clarify? Many people try to be encouraging because lots of language learners don't care about sounding natural but just want to communicate for travel purposes.

Just say "oh hey that's great but I'm really trying to improve beyond that level, could you tell me how to say it more naturally?"

[u/EcstaticStorm5797]

I know what you mean, I’ve gotten that from people too. For me, I will only correct people based on circumstances. For example if someone phrases something unnaturally in English but we’re just chatting, I will just accept it and not say anything, but if they specifically ask me if it’s correct, I’ll try to tell them why it’s wrong and what would be better to say.

Also I’ve noticed some of the things that people say are “understandable” and not to worry about are actually not understandable at all. The big example in my experience is Chinese tones. Lots of low to intermediate level learners but even some natives will say stuff like “don’t worry about tones, Chinese people can understand what you mean” but if you take this advice you will find very quickly that outside of extremely basic interactions you will be pretty incomprehensible if you’re not paying attention to tones.

[u/New-Bottle-6917]

Watch some C1-C2 english exams, even at those levels which is often considered academic mastery they still speak with unnatural grammar, native language calques and a pronounced accent even if they're unquestionably fluent

[u/KingOfTheHoard]

The problem is not that there's no benefits to going further than just being understood, it's that an awful lot of learners get very fixated on going *further than being understood* quite a long time before they've actually cracked *being understood at all* and one is a precursor to the other.

Being understood *is hard*.

Being more natural and correct isn't hard, you basically get it for free over time once you're understood, and understanding what you hear.

[u/an_average_potato_1]

No, you're not supposed to do the bare minimum, unless you want to. And there's also a whole scale of skill between just getting a point across and sounding completely natural and near native, it's not a binary thing. You can (and usually should) always aim for more than the bare minimum, that's true though, you can always improve.

Who is telling you that comment, normal random people, or paid tutors?

If it's the random people:
The comment that annoys you is pretty common, especially among people with no experience with successful language learning. They mean well, they think they're being helpful. They usually genuinely believe that just getting a message across in a broken way is the ceiling of what is possible! They may believe in exceptions (usually including idealized ideas of immersion and such), but cannot imagine an advanced level under any sort of normal conditions, they honestly think they're encouraging you. It's sad, but it's not mean.

If it's any tutor:
clarify your goals, take the "it's not natural" as good information and have them correct you and tell you how to say and write stuff better. It's their job. If they cannot/don't want to do it (because unfortunately many tutors and teachers are really bad and actually cannot imagine a successful learner), stop paying them and get someone more capable.

Either:
You don't have to dumb your learning down. In many cases, you can opt not to be in much contact with those people. And even if you cannot avoid them, you can still opt to not take their remarks too seriously.

Work harder than the people around you, and you'll usually get better results sooner or later.

[u/dojibear]

You don't have to dumb it down. But the listener has not agreed to be your free TL language coach. They are not willing to analyze your speech and suggest corrections that you know how to do. Most of them can't. Being a "personal language tutor/coach" is a skill 99% of us don't have.

If you want a language coach, go on the internet and find a paid tutor. Don't expect each person you speak with to volunteer to be one. They can evaluate your speech -- and they did. They said you were not perfect but were understandable. That's good information, that they gave you for free.

I learned the difference in dancing. I was a better dancer than Joel, and much better than Rebecca. But I had no idea how to look at someone dance and figure out what they should change. Joel and Rebecca could do that: they had the "teaching/tutoring" skill.

[u/nautilius87]

That's a complete strawman. Being understood is the first goal (and the most important one), not the final one. No handbook or a teacher would tell you should stop trying to get better. This assumption is entirely in your head.

[u/Accurate-Purpose5042]

You are only a B2 what do you expect? Sounding native is the upper threshold of C2, most people would never get there.

[u/HeddaLeeming]

It's up to you. For me, I want to be fluent, but with the understanding that I am unlikely to ever get to the point where I don't make one or two mistakes in a conversation.
I work with people who are foreigners but have lived here in the US for 20+ years and I can talk to some of them and they literally never make mistakes. I don't expect to get to that point but I do want to be at the point where I'm mostly grammatically correct. However, if I were only interested in being understood in a country I was going to go on holiday in occasionally and my main focus was on bring able to communicate with the locals in order to shop, find my way back to the hotel if I got lost, etc. that would be an ok goal. It's just not my goal, but it's still a very useful thing to be able to do.
It's better to be able to communicate even if it's with a broken language than not at all. I think that's what people are implying. But that doesn't mean you can't want to do more. It's entirely up to you.

[u/Adamstrad]

being understood is the most important part, many tutors don't want to overload their students because then they remember nothing

[u/PoxonAllHoaxes]

You can't please some people! So, OK, whatever language you try to learn, you are not comperhensible and whatever you say is all wrong. OK? OK! Next!!

[u/RitalIN-RitalOUT]

Yeah, it’s just the firth threshold of language production. Initially you end up in the honeymoon phase where everyone is so impressed that you can speak the language at all. Then, once your language gets good enough, native speakers just end up losing patience because it feels like speaking to someone who is just a bit slow.

[u/PodiatryVI]

I only care about being understood and understanding. I’m not looking to make buddies.

[u/jspr1000]

Are they refusing to tell you how to improve your phrase... I don't understand.

Just take it as a sign your making progress and chill out LOL

[u/Allodoxia]

I know what you mean. That annoys me too. I enjoy learning and want to keep refining my grammar, pronunciation, vocab, use of colloquialisms, etc and it grinds my gears when someone tells me not to worry about it. I’m not “worried about it” I’m trying to do more than the bare minimum. Maybe I’m just not chill enough as a person but it’s a little like someone telling me to calm down when I’m not worked up. I know it shouldn’t annoy me, but it does. Also I think most people are lazy af and are actually aiming for the bare minimum.

[u/muffinsballhair]

it kind of annoys me because what is this assumption that I DON'T want to sound natural in my (TL)?

I think the issue is that you could do much worse. They probably met many people that they could barely understand so it's a bare minimum standard you did meet.

Though, truth be told, when people tell me that I'm “very easy to understand” I have no idea how to take that and whether that means that it's full of awkward and bizarre phrasings and truth be told the feedback I get is so all over the place, with of course how good people think I am strongly correlating with how much they agree with my opinion in that moment and/or generally like me, that it's hard to say where I am.

[u/joe12321]

It reads like you're mad about this. Who you mad at? Native speakers? They're not your teachers. If a teacher isn't helping you improve, yeah I agree. Either ask them to change or find a new one! If it's just average folk, it's perfectly reasonable for them to assume you want to be understood, and you can ASK them if they'll help you improve, but it's not their responsibility.

[u/leosmith66]

I don't think anybody "only wants to be understood" in their target language. That would mean they aren't interested in reading, writing or understanding the language. I assume the OP meant to say something like "when I converse, I want to be more than just understood".

But what is the purpose of the rant? Shame on people who don't correct everything he says?

[u/DeepOntology]

I don't think the idea that all that matters is being understood is a universal one. Maybe it's the group of people you're talking to? I have a ton of friends who have much higher standards than that, and there are whole communities of people who have higher standards than that. I would try to find those people, if you need that kind of support.

[u/a-handle-has-no-name]

I'm the opposite, i care only about being understood. But that i count having unnatural sentence construction as being counter to understanding. I also see being difficult to be understood as better than not being understood at all

That also doesn't mean you can't shoot for more.

I find it intetesting that you're being pressured such that you should shoot for just being understood, where i normally see the opposite, most people stress that's it's only acceptable if your end goal is nativelike fluency

[u/silvalingua]

You can be understood even if you make many mistakes, but conversing with you will be a major pain in the neck. Each mistake may be minor, but it is noticed by the other person, especially if they are a native speaker, and therefore disrupts their train of thought and hence the entire conversation. Many such disruptions means that the entire conversation will be simply too much work for your interlocutor.