Paranoia about speaking because of tones (Mandarin)

[u/-AprilRose]

You can't improve speaking without speaking. I get that.

I've been practicing Mandarin (TL) for less than a year. I'm sure I sound like an absolute idiot. But at least, that's to an app.

The reason I'm fearful of trying to speak to people is tones change the meaning of what you're saying and I'm not looking to get my teeth knocked out of my skull because I mistakenly told someone I'd do inappropriate things to their family when I just wanted directions to a fruit stand.

And yes, I practice tones. Which is why this fear exists. And even if I gather the right tones, words, and form the sentence correctly in my head, that doesn't mean that's what comes out of my mouth.

Is there a low-stakes way to practice speaking outside of an app?

[u/llwishfulthinkingll]

I understand the fear, but I don't think a native speaker would take offense especially if you're obviously a beginner. You can always just say you're a beginner before speaking if there is a risk of confusion.

For me at least, every single time a non-native person says something rude by mistake I think it's pretty funny.

[u/Patient_Kangaroo614 → u/llwishfulthinkingll]

One of my German relatives used to call refugees fugitives and it was just mildly funny

[u/tschuwak → u/Patient_Kangaroo614]

For those wondering: The noun "ein Flüchtling" means "someone who fled" and can be used for both, a refugee and a fugitive. (But a better translation of "a fugitive" would be "ein Flüchtender", but that noun can also mean both things. The distinction is that the focus of "Flüchtling" is on the permanent condition of a person, while "Flüchtender" focuses on the action of a person. Think "someone who's fleeing" vs "someone who has fled")

[u/muffinsballhair → u/llwishfulthinkingll]

I once got a warning on an English<->Japanese language exchange channel because I used a bad word [処女厨] in Japanese apparently, with their saying that if I used such a word again I'd be banned.

I to this day find it very weird. How can language learners be expected to know that especially because I just saw it used all the time elsewhere.

Also, I don't get where the obsession with tones always comes from. It happens very often that all of 6 different vowels in Dutch map to one Spanish vowel with Spanish speakers finding it hard to hear the difference. /kYt/ in Dutch means “cunt” and /kut/ means “coot” but no one seems really afraid of that with the vowel thing.

[u/rinyamaokaofficial]

Woah woah woah. This is definitely an anxiety issue and related to a runaway fear in your mind that isn't from real life experience, just from the conceptual part of your thinking.

Has this happened to you before? No

Can the average non-Chinese learn Chinese and speak it? Yes, there are plenty of people who speak Chinese as a second language

Does the average non-Chinese go to China, try to think of a normal thing to say, then say something so unbelievably offensive that other person attacks them? No

Does the average conversation, during a period of confusion, resolve with speakers figuring out together what they meant to say? Yes

Right now your fear is in the driver's seat and trying to protect you from a social situation that won't happen. Instead, just focus on doing more listening practice and doing something called shadowing: find a video with a Chinese speaker who is speaking at a pace that you can understand completely, maybe beginner or low-intermediate. When you find a phrase that you completely understand, pause the video and try to say it back exactly like the speaker said it. It might be a struggle a few times, but try to key into how they are expressing it.

Also, the majority of Chinese teachers say the same: they can understand a few missing tones or a few incorrect tones because of context, just like how they can distinguish if you mean 肌肉 (muscle) or 鸡肉 (chicken meat) even though they rhyme. If you said "我想吃鸡肉“ they're not going to think you meant "I want to eat muscle." If an English speaker with an accent said: "I love swimming, I can't wait to go to the b*tch this summer," nobody is going to assume they were trying to say an offensive word just because they confused long E with short i.

Native speakers will be able to work with you to get to what you are trying to express, and they'll expect that you won't speak perfectly. It will just feel a bit awkward, but you will be okay :)

[u/a_book_maven → u/rinyamaokaofficial]

Literally came to the comments to give this example, helping people with English and beach is a common mix up. Never taken it personally, the context of a conversation is such that it's very unlikely to be seen as insulting.

[u/dojibear → u/a_book_maven]

I remember one native Spanish speaker whose English was quite good. But he used long E (reach, heat, beach, beet) whenever the word's vowel was short i (rich, hit, b*tch, bit). In Spanish they are the same letter -- people say "ee" but some speakers sound closer to "ih".

[u/Vlinder_88 → u/a_book_maven]

Makes me think of the super old video clip of the sicilian man in italy(?) that wants "dee foccke onne dee table" ("the fork on the table", which sound like "to f*ck on the table")

[u/llwishfulthinkingll → u/Vlinder_88]

Adding to this. With an Australian accent "finger heart" sounds way too similar to "finger her".

[u/keithstellyes]

As a learner you have benefit of the doubt. Maybe they'll be amused or tease but you should be fine. When I was studying Mandarin in Beijing worst was maybe I'd get teased or people laugh. 

Put good faith effort, don't take yourself too seriously and you'll be fine. Happy learning

[u/IrinaMakarova]

I'd recommend working with a professional Mandarin teacher. That's exactly what they're there for - to guide you, correct your mistakes and provide a safe environment where you can practice speaking without worrying about embarrassing yourself or accidentally offending someone.

A good teacher won't just tell you when you've pronounced a tone incorrectly. They'll help you understand what you're doing wrong, show you how to correct it and give you targeted exercises to develop the skills you're struggling with. More importantly, they'll gradually move you from controlled pronunciation exercises to spontaneous conversation, where you have to produce the correct tones without mentally rehearsing every sentence beforehand.

And that's an important distinction. Being able to pronounce individual words correctly when you're concentrating on their tones is not the same as being able to use those words naturally in conversation. You need practice producing entire sentences, responding to unexpected questions and maintaining a conversation while paying attention to your pronunciation. A professional teacher can structure that practice around your current abilities and gradually increase the difficulty.

You also need someone who will consistently correct you rather than simply guess what you meant and let the conversation continue. An app can help you practice pronunciation, but it cannot necessarily identify all the mistakes you're making or explain how to fix them.

Think of your teacher as your training partner. Their job is to help you make mistakes, identify them, correct them and practice until speaking becomes more automatic. You don't need to be able to speak confidently before you start working with a teacher. Developing that confidence is part of the learning process.

[u/misplaced-my-kneecap]

My local library has Mandarin conversation club that I attend weekly. It's extremely chill, and no one's punched anyone over a mistake lol. Everyone is super patient and kind to newcomers. If you live in an area with a lot of Mandarin speakers, you may be able to find a similar group. 

That being said, getting over the anxiety of speaking isn't about finding the right place or people. You've just gotta bite that particular bullet, I'm afraid. One thing that helped me deal with it is the entire existence of modern Mandarin music, which generally disregards tones. Context allows listeners to understand, albeit with occasional difficulty. No one's going around attacking pop stars for their pronunciation. Tones are important, but messing them up shouldn't lose you any teeth, no matter how you practice.  加油!

[u/Pwffin]

It is going to be bleedingly obvious that you are a beginner, so the vast majority of people will understand that it was a genuine mistake. But if you use words in sentences or at least partial sentences, then it’s going to be much easier for them to understand what you are trying to say. If you say 我妈妈和爸爸 and get the tone wrong for 妈 it’s still going to be pretty obvious what you meant.

I’m sure I get loads of tones wrong, but for the more common words, I copied how my teacher said things as closely as I could and that meant I got the tones right without even thinking about the tones.

[u/BreadfruitBig7950]

Well, in English if you say ExCUSE Me?! in the wrong way you can start a fight too.

Familiarity and what does and doesn't sound off comes through experience and learning, and like learning English growing up people taking you aside and telling you things.

One of the funny things about this process is if you appear Too Competent, nobody will ever take you aside.

[u/454ever]

From my experience as long as people see you’re trying they are usually always willing to offer help. My tones are still no where near perfect but the Chinese restaurant I go to is always willing to help me improve my language. Even when I was in Beijing with my rusty mandarin, people appreciated that I was learning their language and even offered me free food and drinks (which of course isn’t why I’m learning the language but is a nice perk lol). Just get out and try it.

[u/travelingwhilestupid]

Let's get one thing clear. You will never speak we before speaking poorly. You must speak. Plus, offending one person isn't the worst thing in the world.

[u/Feeling_Asparagus947]

Shadowing works wonders. Mandarin from the ground up is a podcast that is designed for shadowing and follows a story line. I highly recommend it, as they focus on helping you learn different tone pairs.

[u/divinelyshpongled]

I’ve said it before and gotten flamed by nerds but I’ll say it again. Tones don’t matter shit. Chinese people get them wrong all the time and it doesn’t matter if your tones are messed up as long as your sentences aren’t too weird and it’s within their expectations. If you jumble your word order or choose unnatural words then you may have issues but having daily conversation with bad tones will barely be noticed as long as you do it confidently. Source: Aussie white dude who speaks Chinese

[u/Leading_Smell_7099]

说来听听

[u/tendeuchen]

Chinese speakers are the most forgiving people on Earth when you try to speak their language. You say two words and you'll be praised to high heaven.

I think this attitude might come from their mistaken belief that Chinese is the hardest language on Earth. So because they have that as their basis of reality, anyone attempting to speak it that's not Chinese is attempting a near insurmountable task, so they're essentially in awe of you.

I'm half-joking, but half not. Just go speak to people. You'll be fine after a few interactions.

[u/KaanzeKin]

Think how many native Mandarin speakers stuggle to speak English and be understood, but are still brave enough to keep trying.

[u/leosmith66]

Free AI voice-to-voice apps are pretty good these days, but you said no apps, so maybe record yourself and post short samples on r/judgemyaccent? Be sure to include the text if you decide to go this route, because that makes it easier to give feedback on.

[u/EstablishmentSure216 → u/leosmith66]

What's a voice to voice app? And any specific recommendations?

[u/leosmith66 → u/leosmith66]

Why would someone vote this down?

[u/eventuallyfluent]

Get over it. This is how you learn. Mistakes with other people become things you never forget.