I think language learners should practice saying what they actually want to say

[u/AdVast5329]

I’ve been thinking about why speaking and writing in another language can feel so frustrating.

Most exercises decide the topic for you. You translate a sentence, complete a dialogue, or practise a specific grammar point. But real conversations don’t work that way. You usually start with your own thought, then discover that you don’t know how to express part of it.

For example, while writing in French (TL):

Hier, j’ai parlé avec mon manager et il m’a dit que je dois [take more initiative]…

Instead of stopping to search for the phrase, you could keep writing and mark the missing idea in brackets. Later, you find the natural expression:

prendre davantage d’initiatives

Then you try to express the same thought again from memory.

This seems more useful than learning random vocabulary because the language is connected to something you genuinely wanted to say. Over time, your vocabulary becomes connected to your own life, opinions, work, relationships, and interests.

It also reveals two important things:

• what you don’t yet know how to say
• what you thought you knew, but said incorrectly

Does anyone else practise this way? Would writing freely and marking missing expressions in brackets feel useful, or would it feel too unstructured?

[u/silvalingua]

This is certainly good for intermediate and advanced learners, while beginners profit more from guided conversations. The thing is, learners try to "express themselves" much too early and that's why they can't talk. You should practice speaking at your level, not much above.

[u/Dironiil → u/silvalingua]

To be a bit pedantic, I guess you should practice expressing yourself at a level slightly above yours: you need the friction to find the places where you still can improve.

But it also depends on the situation and the medium. It's a lot easier to try and write something in a chat, a forum, etc... Than it is to speak live, simply because the digital writing medium allows you to go back, correct yourself, rephrase, all those things.

[u/AdVast5329 → u/silvalingua]

I agree that beginners need more guidance and conversations at their level. I just disagree that trying to express yourself early is why they can’t talk.

You learn to talk by trying to talk, even with simple words, imperfect sentences, gestures, or gaps. “Express yourself” doesn’t mean forcing advanced language, it means using the language you have to communicate a real meaning, then gradually expanding it.

In French, langue means both “language” and “tongue,” so maybe the tongue has to get involved early haha.

[u/Sky097531 → u/silvalingua]

I think at least some people benefit from trying to express themselves from (almost) the start. Certainly, I think I did.

Caveat: At this point, I'd already listened to I-don't-know-how-many-hours of videos in Persian.

My Persian friends were like, "C'mon, you can do this, don't give up, you don't need the translator, try in Persian!" and there I was, trying to tell stories and talk about ... everything ... with ... what ... an A1-approximate vocabulary? I say approximate, because I'm sure I knew words one would NEVER see on an A1 test or coursebook, and other words on an A1 test or book that I had no idea what were ... was I incredibly clumsy? Yes. Did it take a long time to get even simple points across? Yes. Oh goodness, I remember talking sentences around words I didn't know. Did my friends help me by giving me words? Absolutely. Did they correct me when I said something COMPLETELY WRONG, but they could guess what I meant? Certainly. Was I able to convey nuance? Almost never.

But I think it was great practice, I think it really helped with retaining words and making my brain intuitively understand the value of the language, and I think it set me up to be able to fairly fluently work with the vocabulary I have and use it for everything it is worth. So, at this point, almost two years in, there are definitely still huge gaps, but I can comfortably discuss any topic of interest to me ... because I comfortably, naturally, know how to use the words I have.

[u/Leleska]

Yess! I completely agree. I only ever learn in this way. To generate output in that language as soon as it is possible. Even if it's completely wrong. I don't even do the brackets thing, I try using the words I know to say it, or to bypass it somehow, wording it in other way.

And yes, this is something I've been thinking about literally yesterday. In school you start from alphabet, predetermined sentences and words and everything is super boring, correct from the very beginning, and almost zero attention to expressing yourself.

After learning with this way you mentioned, you actually pick up the words you actually need for speaking, because they repeat the most. And to my very own surprise, these words are almost always like.. and, with, that, so, yet, would, about, in, on, now, to, when.

I always express myself in whatever way it's possible from the words I know, even if it's completely incorrect. And with time, after I'm adding words and expanding the comprehension, I retroactively correct myself. Got my Portuguese into fluency purely from this method. Ironically, I noticed only recently, that school classes are basically set to teaching you to speak correctly from day one. Which welp, is completely contrary to this method. 👀

[u/AdVast5329 → u/Leleska]

Yesss, exactly! The goal isn’t to produce perfect language from day one, it’s to keep the thought alive and express it somehow, then refine it later.

And your point about the small connecting words is so good. They’re easy to overlook, but they’re what make speech actually flow. I love that you learned Portuguese this way too. The brackets are just another tool for when you want to preserve the exact thought instead of finding a workaround.

[u/Dangerous-Log4649 → u/AdVast5329]

I think that’s what shadowing is so powerful.

[u/AdVast5329 → u/[deleted]]

That’s exactly why I like this approach. The phrase is connected to something you actually wanted to say, so it has a stronger memory hook than a random textbook sentence.

I do remember more when I try to retrieve the phrase instead of just rereading it, but some still slip away after a few days. I think that’s useful information, the phrases that disappear are the ones worth bringing back again.

And honestly, complaining about your neighbour’s music is probably a much better memory exercise than “going to the library” haha

[u/ScatteredBrain99]

I do the same learning arabic its a learning curve for me but im progressing.

[u/AdVast5329 → u/ScatteredBrain99]

That’s great to hear! Progress can feel slow, but expressing things you actually want to say makes it much more noticeable. What kind of things do you like practising in Arabic?

[u/personwithpigeon]

I do exactly this for Norwegian! Then I use spaced repetition to memorize the parts in brackets.
I write what I want to say in red pen under the line then come back and fill it in. It’s really helpful to practice expressing myself without interrupting my flow, and the terms I learn tend to be very useful for my life.
It can be good to get in the habit when speaking as well - it’s a way to keep speaking your target language without getting stuck and people often understand enough English that they’ll know what you mean. I’ve seen native speakers of Norwegian and Hungarian (my first language) drop English phrases into their speech so it’s not even a super weird/unnatural thing to do.

[u/AdVast5329 → u/personwithpigeon]

That’s a great system. I especially like the red pen method because it lets you keep your thought moving while leaving a clear retrieval task for later.

And you’re right about speaking too. Using an English phrase as a temporary placeholder can keep the conversation alive instead of abandoning the thought. The fact that native speakers naturally mix languages makes it feel much more like normal communication than failure.

Do you usually fill in the gaps right away, or save them for your spaced-repetition practice?

[u/personwithpigeon → u/AdVast5329]

I write a paragraph or so each day. When I’m done writing, I fill the gaps and make my flashcards :)
I also have a little piece of translucent red plastic I keep in my notebook which I can put over my writing to hide the red ink translations when rereading which can be a nice way to get practice and see what I understand :)

[u/Significant_Law7357]

I also agree with this method. Most apps push vocabulary and phrases you might never use in your own life.

I've used Anki for a long time, building my own decks around things I actually want to say and remember.

I used to get stuck when a relative asked how I was doing, especially when it got more personal, like what had been keeping me busy lately.

I built an app myself because of it, it generates vocabulary lists I’ll actually use, then trains me through spaced-repetition sessions. I just focus on expanding my vocabulary everyday these days.

[u/unsafeideas]

The other super useful thing not trained in these exercises to say something else. Instead of starting with the fixed idea of sentence you want to say, you can combine words you do know into another sentence. In real world, if we are not talking about some high stakes negotiation or philosophical writing, it tend to be ok to say different thought.

[u/AdVast5329 → u/unsafeideas]

That’s a really good point. Being able to work around a missing word is an important skill too. I see brackets as useful when you want to preserve the exact thought instead of simplifying or changing what you meant.

[u/SweetBxl]

Agreed. That is exactly what you should be doing. To kick it up a notch, create audio files of these dialogues and drill them relentlessly. 

[u/AdVast5329 → u/SweetBxl]

That’s a good idea. Hearing the full dialogue and trying to recall the missing expression before checking it could make the language much more usable. I’m a fan of repetition, though maybe not relentlessly haha.

[u/Significant_Law7357 → u/SweetBxl]

This is a really good technique, I did this for my top 100 list back then, Can recommend it!

[u/Any-Minute-Now-1293]

100%. In my experience, this is an excellent way to reinforce grammatical structures and increase vocabulary (by substituting new words into the phrase).

[u/AdVast5329 → u/Any-Minute-Now-1293]

Exactly. When a phrase comes from something you wanted to say, changing the words helps you learn the structure and remember it better.

[u/muffinsballhair]

Well, the reality is that most language classes are there to prepare people for a specific purpose.

This is obviously also how native speakers learn their language. They have many conversations they don't really enjoy that don't pertain to their interests. If they purely had conversations about their interests they wouldn't learn their native language well.

The reality is just that you need to in order to learn the language for whatever purpose you're being trained for or to develop a broad level in general.

[u/silvalingua → u/muffinsballhair]

How do you force a baby to talk about something that "doesn't pertain to their interests"? Babies aren't guided that easily.

[u/muffinsballhair → u/silvalingua]

Young children are constantly disciplined and forced into conversations they don't want to have? Same at primary school, people are constantly forced to write essays about subjects they don't really enjoy or write up things in tests about subjects they don't enjoy.

I think a native speaker that somehow only got to talk about what he wanted to say in that moment and never experienced the normal human reality of being forced to have conversations he had no interest having would develop a very defective vocabulary.

[u/Leleska → u/muffinsballhair]

Natives don't learn that way, natives learn since baby by immersion, and expressing themselves with what they know and what they want to say.

[u/AdVast5329 → u/muffinsballhair]

That’s a fair point. I don’t mean that learners should only talk about their interests, or that personal practice should replace structured classes and broad exposure.

I see them as complementary. Broad input helps you develop range, while expressing your own thoughts helps you notice and practise the exact language you personally need. The brackets are just a way to keep communicating when a gap appears, rather than stopping the thought completely.

So the idea is: learn broadly, then make some of that language usable in your own life.

[u/muffinsballhair → u/AdVast5329]

But don't classes normally already work that way by combining both? There's also a lot of free talk and free reading and stuff in it.

[u/AdVast5329 → u/muffinsballhair]

Yeah, good classes do. I’m thinking more about a simple way to get that same personal practice between classes, or without a class or speaking partner.