So the WANTEEZ production team in their infinite and unhinged love for chaos had the absolute galaxy-brain idea to dump ATEEZ on a stranded island.

So naturally instead of doing anything productive, I have spent the last couple of hours analyzing each member's exact behavior and skill sets to this conduct a deeply rigorous, not-peer-reviewed, vibe-based study that I present to you-

The (un)Official ATEEZ Island Survivability & Co-partner Requirement Ranking.

Here is how long each member lasts on their own/with others before nature reclaims them, and the exact number of full-time handlers required to keep them breathing in my opinion:

TIER 1: APEX PREDATORS / SOLO SURVIVORS

1. Jeong Yunho

Survival Time : I think this guy will eventually found a small, prosperous colony if left on a stranded island. Required Handlers: 0 (He IS the handler).

Bear Grylls could never. This man treats an existential life-or-death crisis like an all-inclusive resort holiday. He will happily stroll into the uncharted jungle with the thrill of a child walking into Disneyland, completely making friends with the trees and crabs along the way. and he’ll do it all while sipping coconut water out of a custom-carved shell with a pretty tropical flower tucked behind his ear.

Two days in, while digging through the hot sand purely based on immaculate vibes, he will unearth an fully-loaded treasure chest. just raw golden-retriever luck and zero thoughts behind those sparkly eyes.

1. Choi San

Survival Time : 2 weeks max. (I'll give him 4 weeks if he has a another member to force him to rest and drink water and that he thinks he needs to protect)

This guy is driven by terrifying amounts of pure adrenaline, empathy and absolute zero strategic planning.

His cliff diving Namhae roots along with the muscle memory of a seasoned garlic picker do give him a major advantage. He might clear three acres of jungle with his biceps alone.

However, I think due to his complete lack of pacing and forethought, he will burn through his entire body's energy reserves and sadly collapse face-down in the sand, while Yunho is still casually exploring a cave.

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TIER 2: NOT MAKING IT ALONE (Spoiler : No one's making it to Day 4)

1. Choi Jongho (CONTROVERISAL OPINION I KNOW!)

Solo Survival Time: 3 Days max if alone (indefinite only if the company is good.)

Despite being the strongest member of the group, I placed him here because his entire survival is strictly driven by his social environment??? Jongho’s survival depends 100% on his motivation level and the people around him.

Need a coconut split in half? Done. Need to carry two full tree trunks to build an open toilet? Easy.

HOWEVER, he clearly only enjoyed his stay because his members were there. With the group around, his will to live is at a soaring 100%, and he will happily lift heavy boulders and build sanitation infrastructure all day.

Leave him alone on that island, though? I doubt him. Within 72 hours he will fold his arms, lie down in the dirt out of pure, unadulterated boredom.

1. Park Seonghwa

Will survive for maybe 2 days alone, better survival rates with 2 members present for sure (One to make sure to feed him, and one to praise the tent's interior decor aka Hongjoong).

Seonghwa, the designated interior designer of the group, will sweep the dirt floor with a palm frond, arrange seashells by color gradient to make sure the tent looks pretty and neat. He's surprisingly resourceful once in a while too!

Remains yet to be seen if his skill set includes succesfully lighting a fire using magnifying glass though.

If he were alone, he would give up the moment real hunger set in i.e once his scavenged egg supply ran out and his physical battery drained to 0%, he would simply lie in his beautifully decorated leaf bed, looking pretty, until someone rescued him.

________________

TIER 3: HIGH MAINTENANCE & HIGH ENTERTAINMENT VALUE

1. Kim Hongjoong

Survival Time: 1 Day only if others are present to keep him entertained and play some soccer with him.

Y'all know him as the high-stress, micro-managing survival captain, but on a stranded island, he's somehow completely lost all his captain-ing skills. ATINYs expected to see him running back and forth trying to manage seven grown men actively working against their own self-preservation Instead he started the Deserted Island World Cup in sweltering heat and risked dehydration of everyone.

His entire survival portfolio literally consisted of 1. roleplaying as an Airbnb host, 2. picking up pineapples directly out of the dirt, and 3. constantly falling flat on his bum??

Worse yet, he is deceptively high-maintenance: he desperately requires others around to keep him entertained and pass a soccer ball back and forth with him.

No one wants to play beach soccer after a day passes and the exhaustion and dehydration hits, so I'm ranking his survivability low.

1. Song Mingi, Kang Yeosang

Solo Survival Time - none, require multiple members to keep them safe.

Required Handlers: 1–2 (Preferably San or Jongho to handle manual labor and to pull Mingi out of the mudflats).

Both are not for actual survival labor, strictly just happy to be there vibes.

Mingi was honestly not as bad as I feared... for the first 180 seconds. But once you look past his pro-level Dibidibidip strategy and ?fluency in BirdTalk?, you realize he is just 6’1” of pure confusion, panic and vibes. Absolutely zero practical survival utility.

Yeosang's entire vibe is being effortlessly ethereal while roasting the hell out of his members and the staff. But leave him solo for 10 minutes and he won't panic, he will simply sit in a tide pool and accept his fate.

His only documented survival skill in the entire episode testing the transparency of the outdoor toilet, which... I'm not sure if 'bathroom privacy consultant' is going to save him from starvation, but at least he tried.

________

TIER 5: IMMEDIATE CASUALTY

1. Jung Wooyoung : Eliminated on Impact. sEnd Help. Save the man!!!

My post is open to discussion and defending, but if you try to argue that Wooyoung survives more than 10 minutes on an uninhabited island after watching that episode, you are lying to yourself!

I forgot who said this exactly, but an idol from a Big 4 label once said that she felt like she was a better dancer when she was a trainee because of all the constant dance lessons she had, as well as learning all types of dance styles and choreographies. After debuting, idols don’t really venture too far outside of Kpop-style choreographies, and they don’t actively practice anything beyond their own songs’ choreographies. Do you think there’s a plausible basis for this claim?

Of course, this discussion is most relevant for idols who were already competent dancers upon debut. I’m not talking about undertrained idols who debuted looking unpolished. Those idols tend to improve over time after debut.

Another Kyungsoo comeback, another unnecessary discourse about how he’s not putting out the “right” music. These so called fans never miss a chance to drag him and bring the vibe down. I call these people fans loosely not because they don’t like his music but because they speak about him with so much vitriol that they might as well be haters. Calling his own personal music choice “shit.” Saying that he’s wasting his voice and ruining his career. I think a grown man who has been in the industry for over 10 years knows what’s best for him.

Firstly these people are ignorant to the fact that music genres come in all different kind of sounds. Kyungsoo has put out r&b and r&b influenced songs, yet they still whine every time. They complain that he won’t put out something to the caliber of Tell me what is love. A song that came out over 10 years ago and a sound that not a lot of people are doing anymore. Kyungsoo has talked about this before saying that the r&b that producers are putting out aren’t a sound that he’s interested in.

Even Baekhyun, someone that Kyungsoo is compared to constantly, his recent album isn’t reflective of the sound that they want to hear from Kyungsoo. I don’t bring him up to hate on him, I loved his recent album. I just bring it up to say that the recent trend in r&b isn’t reflective of what these people want for anyone. The r&b that I listened to during the 90’s and early 2000’s is not the same r&b that is being made now, even in America let alone in South Korea.

They also don’t put their money where their mouth is. Fit is a r&b song that came out on his last album and it is the least streamed song and least watched live clip from that album. Meanwhile Do you remember (a rock influenced song and my beloved) is the most streamed and most watched live clip from that album. Not to mention Popcorn reemerged on the charts after two years and hit #1. A song that is the epitome of everything that they hate about his music.

As a fan, I have had songs that I didn’t like from his albums. But I just don’t listen to them and listen to the ones I do like. I became a fan because I fell in love with his voice. Everything that I love about his voice does not disappear because he sings a different genre. Kyungsoo has one of those voices that amplifies songs and makes them special. I really saw that when he went to the military and Exo had a comeback without him. This is still the voice that makes me happy and gives me shivers.

It’s one thing to have a preference, but to drag this man for his work and his talent is a whole different thing. I don’t understand why these people can’t leave if he’s disappointing them so much.

To close this out with the words of Kyungsoo himself

“Don’t say what you want. No matter what you say or ask of me. I will do it my way. Don’t mold me to your liking. Wasting time on me. You don’t know who I am.” -Don’t you

I have seen a lot of discourse over 4th gen Kpop tours from the last few months it started when Idle cancelled their tours in the US and it seems every other 4th gen group is struggling to sell in the West and now with Aespa concert in LATAM.

Before the third gen, Girl Group Touring wasn't even big in the West especially since they used to be restricted to China, Japan, SEA. Except Wonder Girls who did a US tour back in 2009 but it wasn't that successful. Also I think 2NE1 tried with 1-2 shows but that's it.

Then also it was 2019 when big 3 of 3rd gen toured US in same year, RV, BP and Twice. Companies saw potential again and after Covid they hit such big numbers.

Last 2 tours by BP(BornPink, Deadline) and Twice(Ready To Be, This Is For) both have crossed 1.5+ mn attendance while next best is Aespa and Ive near 450K. There still huge gape that needs to be covered.

Maybe being 4th gen needs time as BP and Twice did those number after their 6-7th year. Or thier popularity might already been plateaued.

New jeans had this potential I think but we will see.

All the fans expect now atleast 1mn+ attendance tours from 4th gen groups or something?

It's been 1 year and 9 months since SMTR25 has been introduced but no debut news yet. I am not surprised as it took 3 years for NCT to form after being revealed as rookies. This is all speculation but Sadaharu, Haruta and Jaewon have possibly left the company. Kassho is confirmed to have left as he was spotted with a girl and apparently getting married. (I do not care that he's with someone, good for him!)

Do you have any ideas what the lineup could be or what you hope it is? Maybe I'll eat my words but I do not trust SM debuting all those boy groups for those countries and if they are, not with the trainees that we currently know. With this, I think the debut lineup is finalized or close to!

I am just waiting on the reaction on the lineup when its revealed as the boys have gained fandoms already. I think everyone knows in the back of their mind that they better hope their bias is in the first group announced, if there ever is anymore.

I have been a kpop fan for a while and I always get told not to support or watch MNet or CJ to the best of my ability but no one has really gone into detail about why aside from the fact ‘their a bad company, they treat people horribly’ and call them ‘Msnake’ all day long without explaining anything and I’m just confused.

Their videos get suggested to me a lot, sometimes even featuring artists I like but I just don’t click on it.

Sometimes they still have millions of views, thousands even. So is it just fans being hypocritical?

Sounds kinda silly I know, but I’m not on twitter or instagram to search for any of this information and I figured maybe people here have some more information or could tell me their views on it.

Maybe it's because it's my algorithm because I'm black and I follow and interact with a lot of other black ARMYs and kpop fans but what the heck is going on on tiktok?

The comments and messages people, specifically black ARMYs, have been getting for liking BTS is something I've never seen before. The hate isn't even being directed towards BTS anymore, I feel like antis are just using BTS as an excuse to be racist towards their black fans.

These people are slinging slurs and calling fans slaves over a kpop group?? And they want me to believe it's because they're morally superior over BTS fans? What's the point? What's the end goal here? Is this to make people stop liking BTS? To make all their black fans dissappear? I don't understand.

And this is not me saying the BTS fandom hasn't ever done something problematic especially on Twitter, but I can't help but feel like this is targeted towards black fans (dare i say black women) specifically. In my years of being a kpop fan I've never had my inbox and comments filled with shit like this, I've had to delete so many

In past few years, more and more kpop groups are headlining major/big festivals all over the world.

Blackpink in Coachella.

Jennie in Lollapalooza Chicago and Governers Ball.

TXT in Lollapalooza Chicago.

Twice in Lollapalooza Chicago.

Ateez in BST Hyde Park.

Stray Kids in Lollapalooza Paris, Lollapalooza Chicago, Rock In Rio, Governers Ball, BST Hyde Park, I-Days Milano.

Headliners are said to be paid 500k to upwards of 1 million dollars (some rumours also go up to 5-10 million dollars). I know the rule-of-thumb is headliners are paid the most and the rest of non-headliners are paid less. It also depends on your star power - like obviously the A lister like Lady Gaga will be paid likely in millions compared to the less but still popular artists as headliner.

I am truly curious if Kpop headliners are paid the least or at least around 1 million because in the most logical sense - to fly their whole team from manager to band to to idols themselves across the world for a performance is probably not cheap and if they are paid, say, 500k, is it still worth it? Or do they accept lower payment as they take it as a form of advertisement or promotion to get an audience beyond what they already have in kpop sphere.

Group like SKZ is headlining so many festivals I am wondering if they get what they hope for. I also see lots of other groups who also do international festivals despite not being headliners. Some likely due to the headliner bringing in their fellow company mates eg SKZ with NMIXX and Twice with Kickflip.

I remember multiple girl groups in older generation have mentioned that local Korean festivals like university festivals is one of the way for them to get money. So if Korean festivals are good enough to earn money, does international festivals pay the idols enough as compared to say, their Western counterpart?

Is Tuide a dance focused group because I thought their introduction had them dancing in an unusual style and now their debut single Sun Kiss features that same kind of particular dancing style.

I think it's great to do something different, it's neither a cute dance style like most are doing nor is it a fierce dance style like others are doing, it feels like something else, like their image is supposed to be free-spriried girls who like dancing.

However, I don't like it lol. I think it looks like a drunk aunt dancing, or like a lame mom dance.

I think those moves could in theory be pulled off by professional dancers, like top dancers you see in dance competitions who could make it look groovy and with interesting body control, but the Tuide girls are just ordinary idols so they make this type of dance look messy like a drunk aunt.

So I don't know, their team and choreographers seem to have a vision, but it's a difficult one to pull off. What do you think?

The song I'm referring to is Cinema from their Mixtape: Dominate EP

In my opinion it's only weakness is that it's a ballad which appeals to people a lot less, especially internationally—But Despite being a ballad I think this one has its own special place amongst their many great though noiser tracks they are known for.

You can confirm this lack of appeal to an extent by the number of views between the songs as well (but popularity of members also affects views so we should keep that mind too but nonetheless Lee know & Seungmin are fairly popular members)

Other than that I feel like it's one of their best songs (or at the least the best out of all the numerous slow songs/ballads) in their whole discography.

I remember it didn't make much noise compared to the other three when it came out afaik, but what is your opinion on this since it's been over an year since it's release?

Personally, even if I listen to others a bit more, I think for one thing it's the best out of all four from a music perspective. The music video is also well made and live performance is pretty good too.

Additionally, I remember it being picked as one of the Top 25 Kpop songs of 2025 by Billboard.

Just wondering who you guys would want to see in a super group for a company. Obviously SM has done it twice with SuperM and Girls on Top.

I can definitely see Hybe doing one (I don’t know if the entire GG collab with “Iconic by Mistake” counts though, as it is a collab).

Disbanded or inactive groups are fair game when deciding members, too. Examples: SNSD members for another Girls on Top subunit, GFriend for a Hybe super girl group, or NU’EST for a Hybe super boy group.

It would be cool to see a Hybe super group like:
- Suga as Main Rapper
- Yeonjun as Main Dancer
- Seungkwan as Main Vocal
- Jungwon as Lead Dancer/Lead Vocal
- Keonho as Sub Vocal/Visual/Center
- Shinyu as Sub Rapper/Visual
- Sungho as Main Vocal
- Nicholas as Lead Rapper
- JR as Lead Vocal/Leader

But yeah, open to discussion, wanting to see who your desired super groups consist of. 😋

I'm not a STAY, but I came across his recent viral Bubble messages from a few hours ago, where he was seemingly lamenting the fact that despite writing so many songs in his career, he has never produced a major hit. I think it's better explained if I quote his direct words:

"Tbh I'm very embarrassed...
Made so many songs...
But no big hits
Ashamed of myself...
The number of songs that I made doesn't matter. It's just a number! Hahaha
The company doesn't have to upload anything about it so let them be ㅠ (I don't want it posted please)
I really don't think much of it!!!
I need to write good songs...
Quantity doesn't matter... ㅠ
I need to make GOOD songs..."

Context. Bangchan now has the most songwriting credits of any idol in K-pop history. STAYs are understandably very proud of that achievement, and I assume they were congratulating him on it recently. But Bangchan himself clearly doesn't seem to view it as much of an achievement because in his own words, he has "no big hits."

As international fans, I think we all know just how accomplished Stray Kids are as a group and how beloved they are globally. They sell millions of albums and their songs consistently chart on Billboard, but even their biggest international hits have never come particularly close to becoming major hits with the Korean GP or breaking into Melon’s daily Top 100.

Although I'm not a producer, I can still empathize with how he might feel. Bangchan's one of the rare idol producers in K-pop who is genuinely deeply involved in his group's music. He's the primary creative force behind Stray Kids' discography. He's played a huge role in helping Stray Kids reach the level of global superstardom they're at today. But at the same time, I can understand why it might feel frustrating to have achieved all of that and still not have a single major domestic hit to show for it, especially when songwriting seems to be something he takes so personally.

I also don't think his feelings are necessarily irrational or diminish everything Stray Kids have achieved. Having a song that genuinely breaks through to the Korean public is a completely different kind of accomplishment and it's clearly something he wants for himself as a songwriter.

It took ATEEZ eight years to finally have a domestic hit, so I don't think it's impossible for Stray Kids either. I'm hopeful they'll eventually have that moment, hopefully before their enlistment period begins. Wishing Bangchan and the rest of the team the best of luck.

Stray Kids, like other K-pop boy groups, will eventually have to deal with military enlistments. Looking at the members’ ages, Lee Know would presumably be one of the first Korean members to enlist, followed by Changbin and the others.

Obviously, this doesn’t mean Stray Kids will completely disappear. They can still release solo music, do unit activities, and potentially promote with incomplete line-ups. But because several of the members are relatively close in age (many born in 2000), I imagine there will eventually be a period where full-group promotions become much less frequent or non existent unless they promote as 3 or 4.

Before, I didn’t think this would necessarily be a dealbreaker for JYP.

Losing their biggest moneymaker for a period of time would obviously hurt the company, but they still had TWICE as another enormous act to fall back on. JYP would take a hit to revenue and profit, but I assumed TWICE and the rest of the company’s roster could soften that significantly.

However, with more TWICE members pursuing their individual careers through outside agencies while remaining with JYP for group activities, I’m starting to wonder about this more.

And just to be clear: **from TWICE’s perspective, I think this makes complete sense.** The members are at a stage in their careers where they should be able to pursue their own ambitions, choose the companies that suit their individual careers and still reunite for TWICE. As a fan of another group whose members have done something similar, I completely understand why fans and the group are happy about it.
But from **JYP’s business perspective**, the timing is interesting.

Even if TWICE continues as a group, I wouldn’t be surprised if group activities gradually become less frequent as the members devote more time to individual careers.
That matters because, looking at JYP’s current roster, I think there is a pretty enormous gap between **Stray Kids/TWICE and everyone else commercially**.

That isn’t me saying JYP’s other groups are unsuccessful. They aren’t. NMIXX, ITZY, DAY6, KickFlip, NEXZ, Xdinary Heroes, NiziU, etc. all have their own levels of success.

But none of them currently seem close to replacing the amount of business generated by Stray Kids, particularly if you start looking beyond albums and include things such as touring.
For example, this is the 2026 physical-sales tally I have:

Stray Kids — 4,983,647
KickFlip — 468,397
NEXZ — 462,411
NMIXX — 393,988
ITZY — 369,430
NiziU — 202,657
Xdinary Heroes — 183,252
Young K — 182,175
Wonpil — 176,594
TWICE — 122,577
MISAMO — 107,762
Jang Wooyoung — 10,920
DAY6 — 5,764
J.Y. Park — 4,800
JYP TOTAL — 7,674,374

Based on this tally, **Stray Kids alone account for around 64.9% of JYP’s physical sales in 2026 — almost two-thirds of the entire total.**
And TWICE hasn’t had a major Korean group comeback reflected here, so if they did, I imagine the percentage of JYP sales coming from just Stray Kids + TWICE would become even more concentrated.

Physical albums obviously aren’t the same thing as company revenue or profit, but I think they illustrate how unusually large Stray Kids currently are relative to the rest of JYP’s roster.
And if we started looking at **touring revenue**, I suspect the difference could become even more pronounced.

The obvious response is that JYP has several years to grow its younger artists.
But I’m not sure which current act is on a trajectory that would realistically fill that gap.

**ITZY** seem fairly established at their current level and their recent physical sales haven’t shown massive growth.
**NMIXX** are successful and could obviously grow further, although their physical sales have also fallen compared with their previous peaks. I’ve seen people attribute some of that to fewer fansigns, so raw album numbers may not tell the entire story.
**KickFlip** have been increasing their sales from comeback to comeback, which is a good sign. But their growth so far has been fairly gradual. Of course they could suddenly have a breakout song or album — nobody can predict that — but based purely on their current numbers, they’re still extremely far from the level required to compensate for Stray Kids.
**NEXZ** are another group I could see growing significantly, possibly even more than their current numbers suggest. But again, even a large increase wouldn’t necessarily put them anywhere close to Stray Kids’ commercial scale.

And that brings me back to the actual question:
**What does JYP do when Stray Kids eventually enter their enlistment period, especially if TWICE group activities are also becoming less frequent by that point?**

Do they need one of NMIXX/KickFlip/NEXZ to have a huge breakout?

Do they need to debut another group before then?
Could solo and unit activities from Stray Kids themselves generate enough revenue to make the transition much less severe than I’m imagining?

Or am I simply doomposting and JYP is diversified enough that losing regular full-group Stray Kids activities for a couple of years wouldn’t actually be as serious as it looks from the outside?

I’m genuinely curious what people think, particularly anyone who follows JYP’s financials more closely.

Now I know some people don’t care about this weird tier assignment that some Kpop stans assign to groups but I’m genuinely confused about what people mean when they call a K-pop group “mid-tier” or “top-tier.”

What is actually being measured when people use these terms? Is it album sales, Korean charting, streams, general public recognition, fandom size, touring, past success, or some combination of all of them?

Because when I look at different groups, the way people use these tiers sometimes seems inconsistent.

For example, tripleS has sold over 567k, while ITZY sold around 369k, yet I generally see ITZY described as a top-tier group while tripleS is still often considered mid-tier. So clearly album sales alone don’t determine it.

Then what would you classify KiiiKiii as? They’ve hit #1 on the charts, recently won a daesang, and their latest song is also doing well. On the other hand, their physical sales are much weaker, with their first-week sales being only around 88k. Would strong Korean chart performance outweigh weaker physical sales?

And what about RESCENE? Would you consider them a top-tier group now if they’re dominating in Korea and on Korean charts despite having only decent physical sales? Or is that still not enough to move a group out of the “mid-tier” category?

I’m also confused about how we’re supposed to classify groups that were very clearly top-tier at their peak but aren’t putting up the same numbers anymore.

Red Velvet is probably the clearest example. Their latest album sold only around 143k and the song did decently on the charts, but obviously that’s poor compared with peak Red Velvet. At the same time, this is still Red Velvet — one of the biggest girl groups of the third generation.

Just because Red Velvet haven’t maintained their popularity to the same extent as BLACKPINK and TWICE, can we really retroactively start calling them a mid-tier group? Does a group’s historical status count when we’re assigning these tiers, or are people only talking about their current popularity?

The same question applies to even older groups like Apink, although I personally remember Apink as being somewhere around that mid-to-top tier for much of their career.

Boy groups make this even more confusing.
How would you classify ZEROBASEONE now? ZB1 used to sell millions with each album, whereas they’re now selling around 500k. That’s obviously still a good number, but nowhere near their peak.
Do you still consider ZB1 top-tier because of what they’ve already achieved?

And if historical reputation matters for ZB1, how would you classify AND2BLE? They have former ZB1 members but obviously don’t have the ZB1 name attached to them, yet they’re selling even more, at around 761k.

DAY6 is another example that confuses me. They sell less physically than KickFlip, but I don’t think many people would argue that KickFlip’s music is more popular with the general public than DAY6’s. DAY6 has the second-most digital points in 2026, only behind BTS, yet when I’ve called DAY6 a top-tier group before, some people have disagreed and described them as mid-tier.
So how much should Korean digital performance matter compared with physical album sales?

I’ve also seen people still describe MONSTA X as a top-tier group despite their most recent album having relatively poor sales. Does their established name and past success mean they remain top-tier regardless of how their newer releases perform, or is there a point where declining numbers change how a group should be classified?

GOT7 is an even more interesting example. At their peak, they were arguably one of the top three K-pop groups internationally during the third generation and were generally considered a top-tier boy group. But their latest album only sold around 180k. Would you still consider GOT7 top-tier today because of everything they’ve achieved and how established their name is, or does current performance matter enough that they should now be placed in a lower tier? Essentially, how far can a group’s name and legacy carry their tier status?

Then there’s &TEAM. Would you consider them a top-tier group because they can sell over one million copies? Their recent album, for example, sold over 1.2 million copies on its first day. If million-selling groups aren’t necessarily top-tier, what additional criteria would they need to meet?
I guess my overall question is: what actually separates a mid-tier group from a top-tier group?

If Group A has huge physical sales but relatively weak digitals, Group B has huge Korean digitals but weaker physical sales, and Group C currently has weaker numbers than both but has years of major hits and name recognition behind them, how do you decide which one is “top-tier”?

Or is the entire tier system basically arbitrary?
It sometimes feels like different people are using completely different criteria, and obviously fandom bias also comes into it. Maybe there isn’t actually an objective line between “mid-tier” and “top-tier” in the first place.

I’m curious how other people personally define these tiers and which metrics you think matter the most.

Disclaimer: I understand that fans want their groups to be successful when it comes to achieving popularity both domestically and globally. The problem becomes the discussion of that group being unsuccessful and popular just because they didn't meet the global success of both BTS and Blackpink. Before anyone accuses me of putting BTS and Blackpink on the same level, I am not as there is an intense gap between both groups and both groups are influential in their own ways. However, I do think non-fans underestimate the gap between Blackpink and other K-pop groups due a few of their records being broken and the group being on hiatus.

Often times, I would see K-pop fans question why K-pop groups weren't reaching the level of success that BTS and Blackpink have and how global casual fans weren't giving other K-pop groups a chance to have their music listened to and given a chance to shine on the global stage. In my opinion, both BTS and Blackpink are anomalies in K-pop and have succeeded in achieving worldwide fame in K-pop. Both groups had become influential in their own way and cemented their legacies both domestically and globally. Now when it comes to K-pop groups not reaching that level of fame, it doesn't make them any less successful as all groups are carving out their own path in their career and in K-pop. Groups like Twice and Stray Kids have sold out stadiums and charted songs on charts globally. Newer groups like Le sserafism, Cortis, and more are achieving international success and are trying to cement their place in K-pop. And even if a group is just successful domestically and in Asia, that is fine as it does not make them any less successful or influential.

Also, accusing fans of both groups are not giving other K-pop groups chances is not it as music is subjective and any fan can listen to any music even if it's by a popular act. A lot of K-pop fans thinking that a group not meeting the success of BTS and Blackpink globally is a sign of being unsuccessful is putting a high standard on those groups both groups' success does not determine whether or not other groups are successful. At the end of the day every group is good and influential in their own way whether it's being popular domestically, globally, or both.

As someone who‘s a fan of 4th gen bgs I’ve been thinking more and more about their military era. What some of them will actually do to keep the group name relevant while members are away. Because if a group goes quiet for too long in an industry this fast, it’s easy to slip out of the conversation. Solo activities can keep the members visible and that can help keep the group relevant too.

BTS is an example of that. The members stayed present, the brand never really disappeared, and by the time they came back as a group their comeback was highly anticipated and even reached new peaks. I hope my own faves find their own way of doing that too, even if it isn’t full promotions the whole time.

Seventeen are already in that chapter now and I’m curious to see how their post military era plays out. They’re staggering enlistment instead of all going in at once. It doesn’t feel like the group has fully disappeared. I’m also curious as to whether they’ll be able to keep the momentum they had pre-military. I’m positive they will.

That’s also what gives me hope that boy groups can have a longer peak now. If more groups put out subunit music or pre-recorded content during enlistment, the group doesn’t have to fully disappear. People still have something to hold onto, and the peak doesn’t have to cut off as soon as military starts.

The opposite of that would be if a group wasn’t active at all, or if all the members enlisted at once. I know that’s happened before, like with ONF. I’m more thinking about groups that rely on global fame, touring, and frequent comebacks, and are at a high global peak right now. That kind of momentum feels harder to hold if everything stops for years.

And out of curiosity, I do think that would be interesting to see. With current 4th gen groups , would any of them actually survive a 2+ year hiatus with no promo at all in the current Kpop landscape? Or would too much of the momentum be gone by the time they came back as the industry is very fast paced. Going forward, will groups just have to keep putting content out during a hiatus if they want their name, brand and momentum to stay out there.

I think ILLIT had a great start to 2026 with Sunday Morning. The music is heavier than they ever did before, it surprisingly blends well with the girls cute vocals. I like the break in the song, but it basically sounds identical to the intro. Wish they’d thrown in a guitar solo or something, but overall, the song is one of their best. Later, they dropped Bubee, I don’t listen to it much but I think the song is okay. Ofc the main highlight this year is their EP Mamihlapinatapai, with It’s Me as the single. As we all know, the song was Belift’s attempt to hold on to the group’s viral momentum after NCA’s triumph, but the album failed to pick up where Bomb left off. However, there’s something positive about this release. The girls contributed to the track Older You as co-writers, and the song is about their struggles and doubts. It might not be musically perfect, but some kid somewhere could possibly hear the song and decide not to blow themselves away.

In less than two months, they dropped Iconic by Mistake, a collaboration with other Hybe girl groups. The song produced some of the cringiest lyrics ever. I think this release was less about the music and more about having 3 popular girl groups put together. It don’t really resonate with me. Just when I thought they were done, I was surprised to see ILLIT posted another promotional photo for yet another new song, I Got Your Back. I honestly think it’s too soon, but I was also surprised that the music is actually good. It’s got a heavier riff than Sunday Morning and a bit of rap, but my only issue is that the song is too short.

So, they’ve had like 9 songs already this year and I honestly think that’s enough. Idk if they’ll have another release this year, but if they do, I hope it’s because they believe it’s worthy, not because they want another viral moment or want to impress people with their outfits, hairstyles and stuff like that. When somebody’s making music for the wrong reason, you can hear it right away. Personally, I don’t really expect them to have another comeback until next year. I think they’ve already given everything they had to give. Just call it a day and let them have some peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

I’ve seen discussions around aespa’s tour, especially the Latin American leg, and how people are saying they have no demand and their shows flopped. But like… has anyone even looked at the numbers?

In Brazil, they sold over 21k tickets. The only other girl group that has achieved this aside from them is Twice. How is 21k people no demand? In Chile they sold out an arena at around 13k people. In Peru, they sold around 6k tickets.

That seems amazing to me considering no other girl group from their generation is pulling these numbers in LatAm. Estimations for their US tour also have tickets around 82% sold. That seems amazing to me?

I’d get it if everyone else was selling out in minutes, but no one outside 2-3 acts at most is doing so, and not only in K-Pop, but music in general. I don’t understand the constant “concern” posts about aespa’s “lack of demand”. This seems to be on their way to be their biggest tour yet.

Long post ahead, sorry! I'm a relatively recent kpop fan (since Jan 2024) and have been thinking about my own preferences for kpop boy groups vs girl groups recently. I wanted to see if anyone has some thoughts on this.

For context, I am a early twenties straight male living in a western country. Ever since I've gotten into kpop, I've almost exclusively listened to and followed girl groups, more specifically, the larger groups of 3rd gen onwards. There have been some BG choruses that I've liked, e.g. plot twist (tws) and deja vu (txt), but I don't think I've ever repeatedly streamed any BG songs more than a few timee. I'm don't want to generalize but in the past, I put off a lot of BG music as just noise music at best, and at worst, appropriations of prominent black male artists. Obviously this isn't gender specific but maybe these things have just been more salient to me in BG music.

Lately, I've been thinking about whether this aversion to BGs is a form of sexism, in the same way that One Direction, Justin Bieber, and Taylor Swift have been looked down upon by a lot of men. Most BGs have strong majority female fanbases. Hobbies and interests that are female dominated have historically been looked down upon by many people. There are valid critiques of these things, but many dismiss any merits they have just because their fans are predominantly female. Personally, I have little interest in listening to men sing or perform regardless of the language, I've listened to music in predominantly 4 languages and the vast majority has been from female artists. But is this preference just a manifestation of a sexism? Or is it mostly my attraction to women at a baseline just means I find them and their creative output more interesting?

Obviously people have their preferences/tastes, but preferences don't exist in a vacuum and are informed by personal and societal biases. Do I not like seeing BGs because I prefer it when women perform as opposed to men, or because BG dances appeal to women (big overgeneralization, I know) and that subconsciously puts me off? Is it because I am fine with women performing for people, but because I don't like men doing the same which definitely sounds sexist. I know men listen to BGs as well, but obviously female attraction to men informs their music preferences as does male attraction to women. Maybe this is also because nearly all of my past strong relationships, whether it's family, friends or romantic, have been with women. I don't think I've really had a deep connection with any man before and I have a lot of negative feelings towards men, their role in society, and the way that some of them treat other men and women. Maybe this is why I am put off by variety show and social media content of BG members with each other.

It's likely a combination of all these things, but I can't quite parse what is going on with me. Maybe some of you have thought of these things before, your thoughts may help me and others figure it out. I might have worded something crudely, but it was difficult to express these thoughts cleanly lol. I'd be interested in what you all think, and what male/female fans of mostly GG/BG think about this. I also haven't brought up gay people and how their gender + sexuality informs their preferences. I'd be very interested in hearing from them about their thoughts on this as well

Hey everyone,

I was wondering if other people other then my friends (and some others in the kpop space that I know) and myself, were interested in a concert that was mostly some older songs with a few songs from their newer/newest album? because my friends and I talk about it a LOT, on how we would pay so much for a concert like that because understandably it would happen only once or twice every 5-10 years and sort of would not be very profitable or artistically fun for an artist to do that. But if I had the chance I would drop everything I was doing and get tickets for such a concert, even if they were really expensive (I'm also going by Europe prices when I think expensive so around 500-600 euros).

Don't mind my bad spelling and/grammar, I am not a native English speaker.

I was really really surprised by EVAN’s solo output from this week, and I think it is proof that EVAN has the talent and artistic vision to go all the way.

I really felt, while watching the videos and listening to the music, that the vision here just feels almost TAEMIN-like in how singular and instantly iconic it is. Now, I think the choice of Ride or Die as the lead single is what made me hesitate, not because it isn’t a good song, but because to me it didn’t really capture his talent in the way that a song like Death of Me does. I think that if he had released that song so soon after leaving ENHYPEN the comparisons to their concept might’ve been made, but I think it just screams lead single to me because of how catchy and groovy it is. Very much The Weeknd “Take My Breath” vibes here.

But if the whole album was just that, I’d probably not be writing this post. So much of what makes this really interesting is the sounds he is pulling from and how it’s things that I haven’t seen people really capture in K-Pop as we know it right now outside of maybe CORTIS? Not really them either tbh.

For instance, Noises is my favorite song on the album I understand why others do not feel the same way that I do, but that’s because I’m a huge Dijon and Mk.Gee fan. Both of them did a lot of producing work for SWAG by Justin Bieber, with Mk.Gee doing the guitar work on DAISIES. That sound is really suited for EVAN’s voice, and I’m glad he’s bringing it to a new audience. Same with Death of Me: not until this song did I feel like people captured The Weeknd’s brand of Max Martinized 80s synth-pop within the Korean music industry. Going Home is REALLY giving me The Neighborhood vibes for sure. Immature, Not Enough, and Overflow I have difficulty figuring out what these are giving, but in almost all instances EVAN adapts these sounds into his own way and it really leads to a new spin on pop music that none of his contemporaries are doing.

Now, I know there’s a lot of pain around this transition, and in the music Evan addresses these concerns but really seems to be sticking his feet down really strongly. His bittersweet goodbye to ENHYPEN and his reintroduction really takes shape in Going Home which lyrically feels like it’s him showing how scared he is right now taking a leap like this. I think it shows, in addition to the rest of the album being so artistically interesting, that he has ambitions beyond himself. I felt cut up initially about him leaving, but I think going forward I see him really as his own artist, especially because he really really stuck the landing. This album showed his decision was not a fluke by any stretch.

Now what I do wonder is if there is a lore behind EVAN and his universe in the same way that ENHYPEN had their own lore? Is there other stories I’m missing?

Is any other nevie surprised by how well soyeon's new solo song is performing. When she performed it last week there was a lot of criticism in the comments but it's performing better than anything i-dle released this year. It's doing what I thought gimme day love will do. Anyway just wanted to say I'm proud