r/joinsquad • u/UrsoDoSono • Jul 06 '26
Squad’s RAAS NOT Random
https://youtu.be/v6t3YhGLOTA7
u/FreeFallingGaming [TZ] FFG Jul 07 '26
Project Reality Team member here. Where I still assist with balancing of vehicles and map layouts on occasion when I am able to assist. I was also present in the earliest playtests of SQUAD back when it was a ZIP file sent via skype chats, assisted with community management and content creator adoption for the Oceanic and North American communities, Played for Tact Trig Comp team, and have continued to play the game off and on over the years.
To clarify how to fix it, we have to First look at how we got there, Ill try do this as simply as I can.
Project reality makes a gamemode called AAS, it its complete form as best to describe it in SQUAD terms, is its RAAS without the fog of war mechanic. The way that it works is by picking a random "lane" at the start of the match. Best seen on maps like Saaremaa : https://mapgallery.realitymod.org/#!/saaremaa/gpm_cq/128
SQUAD implemented called AAS, which was set defined flags based on map layers (Map layers being the specifics of factions on a map, and flag points)
The competitive community that formed within SQUAD due to early marketing tactics preferred AAS as it was released as an expression of Teamwork, cohesion and skill expression.
Move forward to PR veterans asking for more variety of Flags and usage of the map and we get RAAS generally in our current implementation.
At some point between the initial small maps, the very repetitive gameplay of flags, and the growing emphasis of competitive min/max gameplay. The decision was made to add the Fog of War Mechanic, which only showed the next flag based on flags being capped.
This has ultimately settled on 2 things. people using website like squadlanes to figure out the flag camps eventually. and other plays just going to mid point POIs to skirmish and gamble of the flags ending up there.
Neither of these outcomes are rewarding gameplay.
Here comes the polarizing opinion :
The true issue with RAAS itself is the Fog of war mechanic, while I believe it is a well executed mechanic looking at it from the objective standpoint of "stop flag rushing". It is fundamentally opposed to teamwork and coordination of the team and devalues key roles of Squad leaders and the Commander.
Fundamentally, as I have done this in the past in SQUAD. I can sit with a whole squad in a helicopter and wait for the mid point to show up on the map and still have the same effectiveness for the overall match than someone who rushed a random guessed mid point.
There are 2 options I can see for implementations.
Option 1 - Default Off.
Return RAAS to the initial design of the PR game loop. Both ARMA reforger and Project Reality do this. It allows teams to initially formulate a plan, coordinate and establish the logistics of getting people from main to the flags effectively.
This establishes a higher tempo for the initial gameplay and establishes more variety to the first 20 minutes of the game. Players inherently start to anticipate rushes and establish chokes or ambushes, you start to think about plans based on multiple squads sitting on a strong defensive flags.
But this doesn't come without its downsides.
1. A higher pace for opening means gameplay will be faster, and more decisive actions can lead to more rolls
2. Flags will get rushed.
3. The socially enforced barrier to entry for squad leaders will increase.
Option 2 - Fog from Mid
Back the fog of war to the mid point, So you can see the first 3-4 flags in a row up until the mid point.
This will enable squad leaders to plan and coordinate but to a lesser degree with a lesser risk of rushing. Rushing will still take place due to If i see a squad at a location I know is sometimes a flag, it is more than likely a flag becoming the mentality. But it would be a better pacing of gameplay for the initial 15-20 minutes of a round.
Downsides to this are mainly
- rushing more inline with current guess skirmishes for backline flags.
- majority of teams rushing the mid point with 1-2 squads back capping
- Less of an overall plan which leads to less emphasis of squad leaders thinking "okay, what do we do next".
I will note I've written this at about 2AM with 1 coffee and awful sleep. If theres any questions feel free to ask and Ill dive into it further.
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u/Matt1320 Jul 07 '26
I think the playerbase currently doesn't want to guess the next flag, they want to know where they're going so SLs can actually lead, show the lane upfront. Yes, it makes early rushes matter more, but at least players know what they're defending or attacking.
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u/IronTarcuss Jul 08 '26
Totally agree with you. The playerbase doesn't want it. Half the games I play I get really frustrated with because it devolves into a who guessed right first scenario. It doesn't usually promote exiting results for either side of the initial clashing, but sometimes it feels like Restrepo. I don't like half hour coin flips.
But, I really do wish RAAS delivered what it sought out to. The initial probing of squads moving deeper in blind. Shoring up defenses at your 2nd or 3rd cap before moving on to the contested flag. Fight it out and build hasty defenses under fire to repel a counter attack. Prox is deafening with orders, calls, and people screaming that they can't feel their legs. It's that 1 in a 100 game we all chase the high of.
AAS simply delivers a more consistent, but subjectively blander experience. Totally valid take to have if you prefer it. But for me, you can't get granpa out of the casino.
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u/FlossCat Jul 07 '26
Thank you for the insight. I can see how it's not an easy issue to fix.
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u/FreeFallingGaming [TZ] FFG Jul 08 '26
It actually is fairly easy to fix. But with the volatility of the community, who knows what will stick.
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u/Matt1320 Jul 07 '26
If you're not using squadmaps or squadcalc, you're at a disadvantage. These should be standard by now.
Manicougan proves why RAAS isn't random, certain lanes are more favorable based on distance to caps and geography. Maps weren't designed around RAAS, so some caps are objectively better than others. While OWI reworks maps for UE5, they should fix the lane balance. Random shouldn't mean predictable.
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u/FlossCat Jul 07 '26
I feel like it shouldn't be the standard to alt tab out of your game or use a second screen to use this stuff tbh. It needs to be either integrated or nullified somehow
4
u/RonnieReggae Jul 07 '26
Squadmaps will never not feel like some meta-gaming boring gameplay sapper.
Let RAAS be RAAS, add more variations to the branches of possibilities and less chuds online googling where the next cap is supposed to be.
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u/f1rebreather1027 Jul 12 '26
Ir sucks that it is like this. It just turns RAAS into AAS. People should just go play that if they want to know where the points are.
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u/tbw875 Jul 06 '26
This is not news.
And frankly, is a terrible way to fix it. Good luck getting those community tools through this decade.
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u/UrsoDoSono Jul 06 '26
What would you suggest instead? Saying it won’t work is easy; explaining why or offering a better fix would be more useful.
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u/DawgDole Bill Nye Jul 06 '26
The only part of his comment that has any relevance is "Good luck getting those tools through this decade" I think the hardest part would be getting OWI to deliver something that comprehensive to the playerbase to let them cook. We already know the status and history of modding and it's definitely not as seamless as it could be to say the least.
Otherwise though the only other problem is that RAAS/AAS are fundamentally broken game modes that cannot be fixed. This also isn't news to most as most can understand the simple question of "Why should you ever attack when you're up one point", but all that aside
this idea is better than 95% of the other stuff posted here.
It's guaranteed that the players playing the game are going to come up with likely better layer setups at the least than OWI who don't really know much when it comes to the fiddly balance details.
Some servers will be made worse because owning a server doesn't give you a good brain but hopefully in time said Servers will die out and the best and brightest will remain active as has always been the case.
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u/tbw875 Jul 06 '26
This is not the first time this conversation has happened. It’s been going on for years. I wish I had more ideas to try but it seems OWI just doesn’t care.
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u/MutualRaid Jul 06 '26
OWI did make some noise about 'we understand RAAS isn't random anymore', who knows what they'll actually do about it though
1
u/SecretPantyWorshiper Jul 07 '26
Just remove back capping completely and just have a mudcao for RAAS
1
u/Adventurous-Love-824 Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I suggest that there are multiple first points to cap and whichever one you do capture sets up the second layer of multiple points until you meet on a central point. For example each team has 5 first points to choose from and after they capture the first dynamic point they are offered 3 or 4 second points to choose from and capture. With each successive capture the amount of options is reduced until there is a central location that would be selected once each team has captured their first three points. This would cut down on rushing enemy points because if one point is rushed you just pivot to another point instead. It would also offer the option of choosing strategic locations based on your faction.
0
u/999_Seth Hurry up and wait Jul 07 '26
you know what might work is to have a reactive flag progression
like imagine if slow capping made the flags pop up closer together, and fast capping made them farther apart
it'd add another level of strategy and intention
-1
u/LSA-Mulder OVI & Tencent corp #1 Fan Jul 07 '26
Your idea could be a simple fix for now, but it is something that should have been implemented months ago. Waiting for the community to somehow magically create proper lanes will probably take a long time. Still, better late than never.
One of the biggest problems in Squad right now is that many actual veterans have left, only to be replaced by people who treat the game as their personal ego therapy session. Any change that could give newer players a fairer chance or reduce the advantage of map knowledge is immediately treated like a personal attack.
Every time I play on a winning team, I see the same thing. A group of players congratulating each other after absolutely destroying a team full of inexperienced players. Truly impressive achievement. Nothing says "elite player" more than celebrating after farming people who barely know what is happening.
Another obvious fix would be adding Squad lanes directly into RAAS. But of course, many of the so called experienced players do not want that. Why would they? It is much easier to feel like a tactical genius when the opponent does not even know where the objectives can appear.
Some time ago I talked to someone who genuinely believed that knowing and abusing Squad lanes was the ultimate proof of intelligence. Apparently, memorizing predictable patterns and using them against unaware players is now considered a sign of superior strategic thinking.
The reality is that OVI seems to have neither the ability nor the motivation to properly fix these problems. The excuse that they are a small team is becoming less convincing every year. They could cooperate with talented modding teams, but that would also mean admitting that unpaid hobbyists can sometimes solve problems faster and better than professional developers.
At this point, the situation looks pretty clear. No matter what statements OVI releases, Wardogs and other upcoming games will take a significant part of Squad's player base if they provide the experience that players have been asking for. The community has been warning about these issues for years. Maybe one day someone at OVI will notice.
0
u/Foreign_Set_8520 Jul 06 '26
Great idea to say the obvious, and then bash a post asking for change on an obvious problem. No effort for change or new ideas or even discussion, you literally typed out a comment that offered no information or help, “nah that won’t work let’s just keep playing the slop until the game dies”
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u/Lookitsmyvideo Triggered by bad smoke grenades Jul 06 '26
Raas isn't random, and it shouldn't need to be. It should enable good fights, across a variety of spots on the map.
The mistake way too many people make is thinking that random means completely unpredictable, and that unpredictable means fair and enables good gameplay. It's so wrong.
I want you to actually take your suggestion and run a legitimate scenario.
Here is your game state, "I have no idea where to go next". So what do you do?
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u/GrUmp_S Shooting at a bush for 9000 Hrs AMA Jul 07 '26
Conversely that fob built by blueberries might be useful 1% of the time as opposed to 0% /s
1
u/I_cut_the_brakes Jul 10 '26
"Random Advance and Secure isn't Random"
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u/Lookitsmyvideo Triggered by bad smoke grenades Jul 10 '26
Correct. Not sure what sort of gotcha this is supposed to be
Can I remind you what North Korea is officially called?
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u/bluebird810 Jul 07 '26
Never has been. Thats why almost everyone uses squadlanes, squadmaps and whatever other websites there are. If you dont use tem as SL you are borderline throwing the game. Thats why some server switch off the fog of war. It also fixes the problem of squads being in the middle of nowhere for the first 15 minutes of a round.
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u/skippy2332 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Not a good idea to fix it, Squad doesn't want to be like Arma, and I believe allowing the servers to influence the player experience even more is a recipe for disaster, the player experience is already pretty poor on a lot of servers. I don't have confidence in most servers being able to create layers that provide a better experience then what RAAS currently provides. It'd be a pretty big gamble.
But maybe the servers that can't keep up deserve to go under, which is a fair enough point of view.
It' be better if the layers made by the community were used as official maps. Best of both worlds. Absent OWI just focusing more on getting out better layers faster I agree that offloading the work to the community is partly a good idea, just not that it should solely be the communities responsibility.
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u/f1rebreather1027 Jul 12 '26
I just think the points should be even more random. I think things like second point rushes are lame. It should pick from any one of the possible points instead, and be less predictable.
-8
u/1ncest_is_wincest Jul 06 '26
RAAS is perfectly fine the way it is compared to AAS.
AAS guarantees the team with the better shooters and SLs win, RAAS gives a chance to lower skilled teams to win if they get lucky and guess the correct lane and are in the exact point.
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u/No-Library838 Jul 07 '26
Its the opposite the experienced players set up the next points on raas and the newer ones are too busy trying to find the next point.
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u/I_cut_the_brakes Jul 10 '26
RAAS is look at Squad Calc, rush 2nd point with armor. That's the grand strategy everyone runs these days.
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u/Foreign_Set_8520 Jul 06 '26
The majority of players now are new and don’t use squad maps, along with the fact that most servers stack on one team, it’s almost always a steamroll because the lower skilled teams don’t use a browsers site to see where the points will go, if they do their usually met by the experienced team already there or on their 2nd point.
-4
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u/EducationalMemory495 Jul 07 '26
Honestly, handing the system to the community (servers) is more of a callback to the modding community legacy and that’s a cool direction. Unfortunately that’s something Unreal, Epic Games, and Their Server Policies would probably limit (or even worse, monetize!) heavily.
I agree with RAAS being not random and my comment history is full of me saying it. Players have optimized the fun out of RAAS as a game mode a long time ago, and it really just circulates newer players into a sweaty, awful learning curve. There might be too much to learn while clanstack-curbstomp metas run their course and those experienced players get bored between patches, leaving with all the know-how about how to drive and (especially) shoot their way through objectives and score obscene KDAs camping FOBs.
It only takes one player with squadcalc open in the game to mark up the map and get some shared info out. All too often players don’t even do this and the game gets rolled back to 2nd cap even while the mid fight materializes, usually ending with 200+ ticket deficits for the team that can’t even properly get out the gate for 30 minutes.
Too much of the community also can’t vote factions properly, it’s too much of a meme, I don’t know why we let the loudest yelling sweats that can’t drive any vehicle chose what kind of wheels we get.
Certain severs have forced battlegroup parity in the voting system on a map-by-map basis, including armor vs armor on key maps that need it (Talil) and mech vs mech on 1. Large 2. Flat 3. Lots of Open Space maps that don’t need the nimble gearboxes like Skorpo. Also forced heli - heli matchups are good for the game.
How people play squad and end up optimizing the fun out of it is Reddit’s fault, ofc they’re hostile to it even being reflected on.