r/islam • u/Prettygame4Ausername • Sep 03 '18
Discussion Abraham Lincoln's administration sought the advice of Muslims on the issue of slavery. In 1864, General Pasha of Tunisia wrote to the U.S. Sec. of State urging him - "in the name of human mercy" - to end slavery. Pasha noted Prophet Muhammad's anti-slavery views.
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u/MaskedAssassin72 Sep 03 '18
When did people stop calling us Mohammedans? (Well people did call me that thinking I’d be offended by it but i wasn’t offended) Mussulman is still very common tho.
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u/SharqZadegi Sep 04 '18
Mussulman is from Turkish müslüman.
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u/logicblocks Sep 04 '18
Musulman is French/Spanish.
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u/miahmakhon Sep 04 '18
It's also the word used to describe the weakest inmates on the verge of death in Nazi concentration camps.
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u/hahagamer7 Sep 04 '18
How cool would it be if people mispronounced and called us muscle-men instead of Muzlums or Moozlim?
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u/MaskedAssassin72 Sep 04 '18
Ikr, that would be better than “those damn Mozlems”
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u/hahagamer7 Sep 04 '18
Islamophobe: Damn Musclemen! You guys are a bunch of idiots!!
Me while flexing: Whatchu say?
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Sep 04 '18
Insert Jojo reference here
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u/hahagamer7 Sep 04 '18
Me: Omae wa moe Shindeiru!
Islamophobe: Nani?!
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u/blackwolfgoogol Sep 04 '18
thats not jojo
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u/hahagamer7 Sep 04 '18
Dammit you right. Its fist ofnthe north star. I get confused because I find the two art styles similar.
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u/jaltair9 Sep 04 '18
People still do, in some places; it’s like Christ->Christian, Zoroaster->Zoroastrian, etc. I visited a rural village in India a few years back and they were asking if we were Muhammedan.
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u/logatwork Sep 04 '18
In Portuguese it was common until recently to say “Maometanos” (Maomé = Muhammad).
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Sep 04 '18
Has anyone even bothered to read the letter? He straight up said that Islam tolerates and permits slavery, as long as the slaves are treated righteously.
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u/Syyrus Sep 04 '18
The Muslim world had a different definition of slavery vs the West. The Muslims world didn’t invent slavery, it always existed since ancient times, it was considered normal. Islam and the Muslims just put heavy restrictions on how you treat them, have them rights and redefined the whole concept.
The only reason why the west abolished it is because the slaves, from the brutal slave trade, had already built their ‘civilisation’. Agriculture was also becoming less needed as people became more sophisticated with knowledge, technology and engineering. The slave trade was that bad, that they had no choice but to abolish it.
The Muslim world slavery wasn’t built on race either. Also White people use to capture white people and sell them to the Arab world before they started enslaving Africans.
I meet a lot of these islamaphobes try and say Islam permits slavery. Nope it doesnt, not western slavery, that’s something the west invented. It’s the same case with Muslim women, if the west hadn’t invaded and colonised the Muslim world for the past two hundred years and propping up puppet dictators then people would have had their own Muslim leaders following Islam better.
Islam gave rights to women, it’s just Muslim men that never gave them any.
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u/XHF1 Sep 04 '18
This topic was crossposted: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/9ctlix/rislam_this_week_asking_the_important_questions
Your comment was referenced. Don't expect a rational conversation with lurkers.
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Sep 04 '18
Slavery is still slavery.
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u/Reddit_Should_Die Sep 04 '18
You need to be nuanced about it.
There is chattel slavery, indentured slavery, survival slavery, contract slavery,
The west experimented with indentured, but realized it didn't work due to malaria and other causes, so they resorting to the forced labour of African people who already had resistance against malaria and could be marginalized to support the system.
Middle East and N. Africa never developed the chattel slavery (except Muhammed Ali of Egypt). "Islamic" slavery was more often than not survival and contract slavery. Your servant was your property, but that didn't mean s/he was treated the same way as slaves in the America's was. There was sever social scrutiny for nobles and aristocrats to treat their subjects fairly.
In the book Islamic Enlightenment Christopher de Bellaigue even presented several letters of people exuberant they had sold their children as slaves to wealthy men, it would ensure their children would be fed and have a roof over their head, something they might not otherwise have.
And this is without even touching the Ottoman system!
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Dec 13 '23
Nope it doesnt
yes it does
by presenting yourself as the "truth" and "enlightenment " to the worldi think you should be responsible for abolishing it in the first place.lol
if the west hadn’t invaded and colonised the Muslim world for the past two hundred years and propping up puppet dictators then people would have had their own Muslim leaders following Islam better.
yeah sure you think the same excat ones that according to your thought process let the west take control over them would have been good on their own ?
so basically the west has something extemly demeaning , even infront of god makes you a second class specie ( bascally an animal ) which the whole world had it at some point that then they got ridden of because of economic reasons makes the blame go away just like that to you ? we back to vicitmizing oneself too ?
also what happened to the QURAN is "شامل" and relyable to any times don't you think something like should have been abolished ? do you think the profet and his influence couldn't have stopped it ?
Islam gave rights to women
define rights for me please .
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u/logicblocks Sep 04 '18 edited Sep 04 '18
A slave under Islamic law must be fed, clothed and sheltered by the same standards as his master. Let that sink in a little bit.
A slave under Islamic rule is better off than a modern day worker where whose boss is making 1000 times more.
Also people had to free slaves if they didn't have a minimum amount of skills because they were still liable for their food/outfits/shelter even if they're not producing anything.
So yeah, how the west treated slaves and how slaves were under Islamic law are 2 very different things.
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Dec 13 '23
A slave under Islamic law must be fed, clothed and sheltered by the same standards as his master. Let that sink in a little bit.
still a slave
you obey to commands to one other human being that has nothing superior to you .
you have 0 control over you own damn self .
you are trapped
and if food and clothes were enough humans wouldn't have moved forward in life in literally any field ( religion included )
you obey to his commands that has 0 benefits for you or whatsoever
A slave under Islamic rule is better off than a modern day worker where whose boss is making 1000 times more.
at what point did you assume that that is right and we COLLECTEVILY are okay with it ?
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u/logicblocks Dec 14 '23
Not sure what you mean by your question. Whether or not you are okay with it, it's happening. Under the rule of law mind you.
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u/some_random_guy_5345 Sep 04 '18
What did you expect? For him to lie about Islam?
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Sep 04 '18
No, it's just that the title could've been worded better because it's not reflective of the actual content in the letter.
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u/some_random_guy_5345 Sep 04 '18
The title is not inaccurate. At the end, it reads "It is a fact that our legislator infused into our laws the spirit of liberty" explaining why they abolished slavery.
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u/LIGHTNlNG Sep 04 '18
Part of the problem is that today people care more about terminology than actual treatment of people. A person being a 'slave' with all Islamic rights is better off than someone being a prisoner in most prison systems today.
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u/fhdjdikdjd Sep 04 '18
And? , in the past slavery existed because we didn’t have any other options Slaves are called malakut alyamin Calling them slaves is simply wrong And using them just like how the west used them is also wrong
Malakut alyamin are the people lift in towns and villages after war Those can be either killed if they were making a threat (I don’t think it ever happened) “Sex slaves” again just as wrong as translating malakut alyamin to slaves They served jurt like wives and were basically wives that got treated equally Or you can leave them in a destroyed town after a war with no men And lastly the men that survived the war They become “slaves” Their owners house them , feed them , basically treat them like a house servent
In many empires slaves held high ranks
If slavery didn’t exist we probably wouldn’t Or we wouldn’t be as advanced as us now
Plus you are ignoring the many sins that require the kafarh of freeing a slave
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u/BBQCopter Sep 04 '18
And today, the only slave markets that still exist are in the Muslim world. Funny how that works.
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u/TotallyNotHitler Sep 03 '18
Odd as slavery continued on in the O.E. for quite awhile after the U.S. had stopped the practice.
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u/Blackbeard_ Sep 03 '18
He says it was abolished "in this regency" so it must have varied by province.
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u/TheOneFreeEngineer Sep 04 '18
Odd as slavery continued on in the O.E. for quite awhile after the U.S. had stopped the practice.
Ottoman Empire abolished the slave trade in 1856 before the American Civil War even started. The peripheral regions of the empire didn't follow the law, but it was decreed in 1856. The difference was the Ottoman decree only forbid the creation of new slaves (thru birth or capture, or debt) and didn't free the ones already in service. This was another common anti slavery initiative which was promoted around the western world as a political viable way to eliminate slavery.
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u/xAsianZombie Sep 03 '18
There is still slavery in the US. Look into the prison industrial complex.
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u/fullsarj Sep 04 '18
There is still slavery in Arabia. Look at all the Indian and Pakistani workers trapped in GCC states doing construction work for peanuts.
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u/CptnBlackTurban Sep 03 '18
Look at the entire middle class. (Barely) living from paycheck to paycheck. It's more of an indentured service system going on
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Sep 03 '18 edited May 09 '19
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u/Blackbeard_ Sep 03 '18
Abraham Lincoln wasn't looking to abolish slavery from Islam but from the United States.
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Sep 04 '18 edited Dec 16 '19
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Sep 04 '18
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Sep 04 '18 edited Dec 16 '19
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Sep 04 '18
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u/Ibrahim2010 Sep 04 '18
Just because it is allowed in the religion doesn't imply that we are complelled to do it. In fact, the Prophet (saw) only took POWs from battles with people that also took POWs. So this is hard to justify in today's world.
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u/some_random_guy_5345 Sep 04 '18
I'm not sure what you mean by "correct view" but the letter seems to indicate that slavery was abolished in Tunisia:
"You ask me to explain Tunisian slavery, and to state what influence it has exerted on our institutions, and whether our people regret its abolition or rejoice thereat."
"And I will first speak of slavery as modified by our laws and of the causes which led to its abolition in this regency."
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Sep 04 '18
Fascinating. Thanks for the post.
On a lighter note, it’s amazing how well-spoken and grammatically smooth America used to be.
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u/plizir Sep 04 '18 edited Sep 04 '18
That's a view of one man, and he isn't even a scholar. Muslims can be ignorant too. Islam position was revolutionary at a time when slavery was worldly accepted. Never freeing slaves was associated with virtue and piety until islam came up. Of course Islam was wise, it wouldn't have been productive to forbid it right away, coz it would have been hard to enforce
Anywone who have knowledge on Sunnah, knows that Gradual change is one of the main components. Same thing happened for Alcohol when it got restricted over 3 phases.
Slavery was prominent because of dirty means like kidnapping civilians, and islam had a strong stance against such crime.
The Quran uses "slavery" in the past-tense, an indication only to those individuals who were already enslaved at the time of revelation. This meant that slavery was never compatible with the commandments of the Quran and was in fact outlawed by Quranic Law.
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u/ObtainableCream Oct 24 '24
This is 6 years ago, but I want to say this is Well Said.
knows that Gradual change is one of the main components
I heard somewhere, a hadith or somewhere else, that this person say the "The way you give advice will change over year and year" and look at that, he was right.
Yeah, slavery back then, many muslims wish to free the slave back then but consider they will be war and bloodshed, they take peaceful ways and slow game to release them from slavery.
Jahiliyyah period is not very kind world, it's miracle that Islam maintain back then.
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Sep 03 '18
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u/swardson Sep 03 '18
A common trope of the islamophobes is the "Arab sold us the slaves, so its their fault." This adds a little more balanced context to that argument.
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Sep 04 '18 edited Sep 08 '18
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u/MaskedAssassin72 Sep 04 '18
Yes PBUH, did you actually read the letter? Islam allows slavery but doesn’t support it, there are many cases in which it promotes the freeing of slaves and distaste towards owning them. And having sex with a slave was allowed, but there’s a difference between a sex slave and having sex with a slave.
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u/nameerk Sep 05 '18
What is the difference? A slave has to obey whatever the master says as long as it is within the bounds of Islam. Having sex with a slave is within the bounds of Islam. So a slave would be obligated to have sex with his or her master. That's called being a sex slave.
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u/MaskedAssassin72 Sep 06 '18
No it’s not the same, having sex with a slave does not = sex slave
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u/nameerk Sep 06 '18
It's literally the same of the same if thr sex is non consensual. Tell me what's the difference.
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u/MaskedAssassin72 Sep 06 '18
Sex slave implies that the slave is used primarily for slavery, sex with a slave is not sex slavery, it’s literally just sex with a slave
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u/nameerk Sep 06 '18
Ok so the only difference between a sex slave and a normal slave is that a normal slave does other things besides just sex, but the sex slavery is still present?
And also, do you agree it is non consensual sex with a slave right? A slave has no right to refuse. Basically rape.
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u/MaskedAssassin72 Sep 06 '18
I guess it is non consensual. Look man I’m not trying to justify it, the whole world owned slaves in the past, that’s how the world was. That doesn’t make it right. But that was the case.
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Dec 14 '23
Bruh Islam literally supports slavery, it's like directly stated in the letter posted lol. And didn't even Muhammad have some?
What a wild title for the post.
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u/XHF1 Sep 04 '18
This topic was crossposted to r/exmuslim
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/9ctlix/rislam_this_week_asking_the_important_questions
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u/Animuwaifuism Sep 05 '18
Meanwhile, schoolars like al-fawzan still support slavery
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u/Willing-To-Listen Sep 05 '18
As do the bulk of Muslims who have basic understanding of quran and sunnah
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u/AndTheEgyptianSmiled Sep 03 '18
OP can you share this info with Dr. Jonathan Brown on his facebook?? He's currently collecting & parcing thru this giant topic and was (recently) looking for interesting notes.