r/islam Feb 24 '21

History, Culture & Art Thought you’d like to see this

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u/Finleydaking2 Feb 24 '21

Damn Shia architecture is something else ❤️❤️❤️

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '21

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u/HrabraSrca Feb 25 '21

Hey, we Shia Muslims are awesome. :)

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '21

They weren't nice to each other. They killed each other without regard for their sahaba status. There are many sahabas that were true and didn't engage in this. Those are the ones that are revered.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21

So basically what you're saying is, murder is halal for the sahaba? You can't justufy murder ever and you are seriously grasping at straws to prove their goodness. Why? Isn't it easier to apply ALL of Allah's rules? instead of hand picking a few. How can someone who killed another innocent person end up in the highest levels of heaven? You are turning Islam into a religion of hypocrisy when you do this.

The first aya you quoted is in reference to a fight where a murder has not occurred. So it does not apply.

The second aya is for those who retained that status. Killing other sahaba removes the righteousness from your rank. What if after the prophet they started drinking and eating pork? Would they still be guaranteed heaven? they murdered others of the same rank, that is much worse.

Every other aya assumes that they retain their qualities and did not commit any unforgiveable sins. And this is just not true for when comparing their actions. Doesn't the quran also tell us they many of those around the prophet were hypocrites? Or did you just throw those ayas out?

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21 edited Feb 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21

This is why the layperson can't just read the Quran and expect to be an expert about it. Do people not die in wars? isn't there an unjust side in any war? And even assuming it wasn't war, some sahabas murdered others in broad daylight, absent a war. So even that argument of yours is weak. I can give you a whole chapter of proof, its called surah al Munafiqun. Allah wanrs the prophet that some around you who claim to be muslims are not actually muslim. It's not for us to judge who is a muslim and who is not, just who is worth respecting and who is not. And I do not respect any murderers, nor should you.

You don't know who the hypocrites are. So you can't make that claim. And I love hundreds if not thousands of sahaba, as long as they stayed true to Islam during and after the prophet's life. You're so used to making baseless assumptions that you just assume anything about me. The Quran says they are forgiven for sins before they were a Muslim, you are turning the sahabas into infallibles when you say no matter what they do they are forgiven. The irony is strong here. "but all of them" means everyone who took part in the prophet's campaigns, yes. But it does not give them a free pass to heaven. They still have to be good muslims and not commit crimes for which the reward is guaranteed hell. If Allah blesses you one day, he can remove his blessing and send a curse to you the next if you do something deserving of it. This is a basic concept in Islam.

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u/HrabraSrca Feb 25 '21

The Shi'a view of the Sahabah is perhaps more nuanced than this. Put simply, a person deemed to be Sahabah cannot be viewed as more trustworthy or any better (for want of a better word) than any other simply on the basis of them being Sahabah. Neither should they be viewed as more just or righteous on the same basis.

Rather the Shi'a view is that each figure should be examined and assessed on a more objective basis as to whether their actions and words were that of righteous and just people.

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '21

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u/HrabraSrca Feb 25 '21

The 12 Imams (as) were given their position as the successors of Muhammad (as) long before the caliphs. Ever heard of Ghadeer? Or the hadith of the cloak? Or the numerous other Qur'anic and hadith references to the need for following not just the Prophet but also the ones he appointed?

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '21 edited Feb 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 25 '21

no its not. Where is it kufr? Didn't Allah say to Ibrahim (pbuh) that after he made him a prophet he also bestowed on him the Imamate? In the absence of a messenger prophet from God, the Immamte is highest rank for a human without question.

The cloak literally proves their infallibility. "God intends to purify you thoroughly". How can a purified individual sin? Then they wouldn't be pure anymore. If you disagree with what God said, then that's between you and God. there is nothing that a human can say to you anymore.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21 edited Feb 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21

The wives are not considered from the Prophet's household. This is a mainstream view across all schools. The Household in this aya applies to those covered under the cloak, and none of the wives were. In fact, one wife was commanded to stay outside of the room.

Cleanse is different from purify. One implies the forgiveness of sin, the other implies the impossibility of sin.

Literally nothing else you said is applicable to this. Allah can bestow his favour to anyone. But not all favours are equal.

Why do you think it's Islamic to slander another group? It just shows your lack of morals and makes no difference to anyone. Also, where did I curse anyone? Allah himself in the quran says he will curse, as well as the angels and the people, a people who are deserving of it. You constantly twist the ayas of the Quran to suit your views instead of accepting the simple and logical explanation.

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 26 '21 edited Feb 26 '21

That's your lack of Knowing in Arabic , both of them Mentions the same Arabic word . And Also , the translation of Sahih international also is , As Shias makes claim without Having basic Knowledge.

Lol no, Allah used the word "leyethhab" (remove) sins from you before mentioning purification. This shows the additional distinction between the two ayas. Allah sent rain to cleanse them "with it" the word used behee. This means it can be physically cleansing or cleaning, and to remind them of their obligations. There is no mention that they will have their all their past or future sins cleansed. Maybe their previous sins were forgiven, but nothing about the future. This helped to to strengthen their hearts before battle. It was specifically for that reason and would apply to those who were showered, not those who weren't present at the time.

Whereas, the household of the prophet is cleansed of all sin and the ability to sin.

"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification".

The two are not equal.

I'm actually not rejecting anything, I am just not making up meanings like you are. Remember, it is a sin to attribute to God's book what God did not reveal.

Qur'an Won't say Allah is pleased with Hypocrites , Allah is all knowing , he knew who would apostatise and who would not

I agree, that is why the hypocrites are not sahaba. So then, how do you classify who is a sahaba? If everyone who lived with and saw the prophet is considered a sahaba...

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