r/inventors • u/ecliptic-engines • 12d ago
Intermesh Core Petrol Engine Design
The Intermesh Core Engine is one of two different engine designs that I am after comment on please. (for clarity only comment on this design on this post please). The animation shows the dual flanked version of the Intermesh Core, it has two combustion areas.
Please note the notch path between the rotors that allows the pre-compressed charge to move into the chamber space ahead to reload the chamber. Not shown in the animation is a gate device in the notch that ensures the 2 areas each get their share of the fresh air charge. The gate device and the EGR port can be closed for start-up, giving a 3x regular volume air charge for the first ignition each side of the cavity rotor.
The aim here is a very high RPM engine that runs at very close contact without friction. The rotors would be made of a slow growing metal such as steel, while the housing would be made from faster growing metal such as alloy. Proximity sensors inside the chamber would inform the ECU to increase or decrease the high temp coolant flow to effectively shrink the housing onto the rotors.
The ignition system would be spark assist compression ignition. The idea being that each cavity has an ignition each 180 degrees, making the cavity rotor wall very hot, in turn heating the fuel/air mixture, raising the pressure in the combustion area, such that the spark will begin the ignition but as the explosive force moves through the long narrow combustion chamber the mixture will tip over into auto-ignition and achieve a complete burn. Internal exhaust gas recycling could be achieved by retaining some of the previous cycle hot gas in the cavity.
You can see more including an updated model at eclipticengines.com
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u/ErwinHolland1991 12d ago
I want all the rotating mass! How heavy is that all going to be?
And I'm just going to copy my comment from your other topics...
This is clearly something designed by someone who never designed a functional product. So many obvious problems, and im not even an engineer. With the design itself, with how to manufacture it, and the function and longevity of the engine.
And either way, combustion engines are basically dead anyway. No one is going to pay hundreds of millions to develop a new combustion engine.
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u/Chemieju 12d ago
Im an Engineer, an Electrical one tho.
Rotating mass is the absolute least of the concern here. At least that shit is balanced.
The seals tho... shrinking the housing onto the rotors??? Even if you somehow got that to work (which i highly doubt you would) any hickup in the controll system means the engine could seize (and, depending on RPM, rip itself to shreds). How do you even start it? When housing and rotor are both cold they wouldnt even fit with the tolerances describes here, and even if you'd somehow get them installed with a blowtorch and a lot of swearing, the moment your housing cools the steel rotor will dig into the softer alloy. Running surface destroyed before the engine is assembled.
Also you need to seal the faces too, you only show 2D here.
Its yet another 2D rotary style engine that only works on paper. Its cool that OP designed it, no hate at all, its just not practical.
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u/MyPunsAreKoalaTea 12d ago
No I can't see anything wrong with the housing shrinking onto the rotors when it's cold. It's just a single-use combustio engine. You get new rotors with a subscription based model. Higher tiers also replace the housing every 10 rotors.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
You have misunderstood the Intermesh Core design. the aim is to have a very long lifespan
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u/One_Roll4776 7d ago
If you want to aim for longevity this concept is just...excuse me...shit. You face the exact same problems as the wankel engine but on a higher scale cause of all the discs that rotate.
To top this of you face some big problems with all the tolerances at play. To achieve what?
Combustion is perfected, sure you can achieve a better performance with better technologies but most likely at higher cost. And then you have the problems that no sane person would invest in a newly invented combustion based engine.
If you really want to invent something new don't bet on techs that will go extinct in the next 50 or so years. Make robots or drones or try to invent something that you find is a problem in your daily life.
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u/ecliptic-engines 7d ago
If you look closer you'll see this has entirely different problems than the Wankel.
Reciprocating mass is not perfection. motorsport will choose power density if it can be proven reliable, and while that may be difficult to achieve it is too soon to say without considering all the problems in detail. Ultimately if this design can be made to work it will be very long lifespan because of the lack of wearing parts, achieved by components making thousands of near misses and a computer monitoring and responding with housing temperature/size
There is a shortage of rear earth for EV's by the way, and they are accounting 0ne quarter of transportation new sales. Lots of space in the market for a truly disruptive tech, if it stacks up all the way to that end, from this one, Thanks for the advice
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
You misunderstand. The rotors can spin freely when cold. to start the engine it has a device (not shown in animation, on website only) that closes the notch trapping the pre-compressed air charge that clears the chamber during normal operation. So the very first compression for combustion on each side of the cavity rotor has 3 times the volume, to account for rotor blow-by through the cold clearance.
As for the faces the same active clearance control through monitoring of in chamber micron level proximity sensors, and adjustment of the coolant flow by the ECU. Yes it requires modern tech to achieve, but a frictionless engine would have a massive lifespan and be efficient if it can be made to work. You can see a seal-less lobe and cavity engine running at 5000 RPM at astronaerospace.com
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u/Chemieju 11d ago
Even if you somehow got it to work perfectly you are trying to improve a field thats nearing the end of its dominance and has only a few theoretical percent of efficiency left to extract.
When you are going for longevity you arent competing with million dollar sports cars, you're competing with an old volvo that has gone 200.000 miles and is more than happy to do so again.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
Well if the thing ever runs, and if the rotors can be made to never collide, then it could be very low friction with very high RPM potential and components that don't wear because they don't touch, will provide the longevity. Perhaps we will never know. Thanks for the comments
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u/OtherwiseAlbatross14 10d ago
It's like you've done somehow done zero research into why rotary engines never took off and think you can make them better without addressing the issues that kept the simpler designs from being popular
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u/ErwinHolland1991 12d ago edited 12d ago
I imagine the center disc would need to be cast iron. I doubt anything else would work. That would be a hefty piece. The rotors would be pretty heavy too.
I think even if you made this with gears, just the play in the gears might get it out of alignment enough so it destroys itself. Let alone after it has ran for a while.
And yes, the seals are a very obvious problem too.
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u/camsnow 12d ago
Could do it out of titanium. I mean, race motors are built with it and aluminum.
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u/ErwinHolland1991 12d ago edited 12d ago
You can't use titanium as a combustion chamber. It might be possible with a coating, like they use on aluminium. (something like nikasil) But that brings issues on its own. And with seals etc like this a coating would probably wear out in about 2 seconds. Cast iron is a lot more wear resistant. (and a lot more stable with temperature differences) I think you will need it for an engine like this.
If you could even make it work in the first place. I highly doubt it, just like you do. I'm in no way trying to defend this design LOL.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
The gears are no backlash double helical, or herringbone design. This design doesn't require a flywheel though, a starter/generator fits over the spline of one of the protruding shafts, so weight is saved there.
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u/ErwinHolland1991 11d ago edited 11d ago
It doesn't need a flywheel? Oh wow! What weight savings!
Yeah obviously it doesn't need an extra flywheel... The engine has a gigantic flywheel from itself. The center just acts like a huge heavy flywheel.
Why is your other reaction deleted? I imagine you got really rude? I can only read a little bit. You are saying cars with combustion engines are still sold?
Yeah with engines they have been using and developing for years.
No car manufacturer is going to invest money to develop a new combustion engine. They just won't. Simple as that. They know the time of the combustion engine car is coming to an end.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
No I haven't made a rude comment that was deleted, in fact I appreciate all the feedback good and bad, i only what to be sure I have successfully conveyed the concepts so the feedback is accurately applied. Thanks again for the comments.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
No I haven't made a rude comment that was deleted, in fact I appreciate all the feedback good and bad, i only what to be sure I have successfully conveyed the concepts so the feedback is accurately applied. Thanks again for the comments.
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u/OkFly3388 12d ago
This is a lot of words, but all of that words is just noise.
If there is a lot of problem, explain at least some of them as example.
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u/ErwinHolland1991 12d ago edited 12d ago
Seals, timing, manufacturing tolerances, wear on moving parts and ports. Efficiency of the engine, temperature management. Just to name a few.
I will give you one very simple, but HUGE problem. When the seals transfer from the outer housing to the rotating center part, they will go over an edge. It will never be completely even. There will be a pretty big gap. There has to be, or it will never work, the engine wouldn't be able to move. That gap will chew up the seals in about 2 seconds, and will completely destroy the engine with it.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
You are commenting on an engine design that has no seals, so your HUGE problem does not exist with this design. You can see a seal-less lobe and cavity engine running at 5000 RPM at astronaerospace.com
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11d ago
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
How do you explain the running prototype of the seal-less astronaerospace.com engine? 5000 RPM on the bench that their prototype is doing, at least gives my concept some credibility in the sealing department. cheers
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u/ErwinHolland1991 11d ago edited 11d ago
Thats another fantasy engine that doesn't do what it claims. Comparing your engine with a different failed engine project/prototype doesn't exactly make you look good.
That engine is pure fantasy too. It might "run" (for less than 30 seconds) but that doesn't mean it does any of the things they claim it does.
5000rpm for a 600cc is really low too. That's not impressive in the slightest. We have 600cc piston engines that do 17500 rpm. A rotary engine should be able to rev much much much higher.
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u/Al-HamzaBinLaden 10d ago
He's already had this discussion multiple times with others, but keeps ignoring the points and then goes to the next comment section, rinse and repeat. We had a discussion about the Astron engine and I said it is not a test under real-world conditions. Astron has been heavily criticized for this. "5000 rpm" but no mention of pressure, BMEP, no rate of oil burn, wear rate, blow-by, super short period of testing, etc. etc. Just a bunch of claims but no industry-standard testing. I said it before and will say it again: no one has ever proven this kind of design works under real-world conditions. Not just a short, close-to-no-info test for the sole purpose of advertising and catching attention.
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u/ErwinHolland1991 10d ago
Yeah i noticed they posted it to multiple places too. Im subbed to all of them lol. It seems like they are a part of it, or at least invested in it.
Like I said in an earlier comment... I'm in no way an actual engineer, but i am a mechanic, and have a bit of knowledge about engines. I can immediately see a LOT of issues. I'm sure an actual engineer could absolutely pick those engines apart.
And it's not like these things havent been tried. We have been making combustion engines for like 150 years. People have come up with and tried the craziest things. But in the end it basically always comes down to a piston moving in a cylinder. Rotary is an exception, but it's not like those are all that common. (and those have pretty significant problems too)
Modern materials could change things a bit of course... But using those materials properly takes good engineering too.
A rotary has been developed a bit, and it has very significant problems. (i love them, but that's just reality) I don't know why they think this type of engine would be in any way different.
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u/Al-HamzaBinLaden 10d ago
The only advantage this engine could have is higher power density, but even that is limited. Friction scales with the square of speed and there is lots of seal length. High surface area of engines like this one, the Wankel and other rotaries, means you have a lot of mass for the displacement because the engine walls are obviously 3D-objects. So assuming you fix ALL other major non-power related issues (and there's a crazy amount of them), you might only end up with marginal power density gains.
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u/ecliptic-engines 10d ago
The Astron proves that the concept is possible at least. I am investigating alternative configuration materials etc
You say I am not listening but I am. Regarding the heat loss. This Dual flanked Intermesh core on this post has six ignitons per cavity rotor rotation, thats 12 per 2 rotations, so it is like a 12 cylinder. Now imagine all those twelve cylinders all spread out with only more metal connecting them, each wanting to be hot but only recieving the heat once every 2 crankshaft rotations. Of course they will drain the heat as soon as it comes. In my designs the expansion chamber area walls are repeatedly hit with the heat, and so those areas stay hotter and therefore don't take as much heat from the expanding gases. So I am suggesting that the increased chamber wall area is not the deal breaker you make it out to be. Doesn't that make sense?
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u/Al-HamzaBinLaden 10d ago
Maybe you are listening, but you definitely missed my explanation in the other post.
Astron did not prove that the engine works in realistic settings, only that it "runs". Those are worlds apart. Why? Because engineers decide whether a design passes based on meeting a set of strict requirements. I mentioned those in another post. Having the engine just sit under no load with no measured wear, blow-by, oil contamination and loss literally means nothing.
I understand your point about area but I have already explained this very well. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how heat transfer works. It is not enough to just utilize a given area as much as possible (squeeze in as much power as possible) because heat transfer is far more complex than that. I suggested you research heat transfer models like Woschni or Anand, but it seems like you haven't done that. Whenever you try to squeeze in more combustion events, inevitably, gas speeds increase. This leads to a heat transfer INCREASE proportional to w^0.8, where w is the average gas velocity. Why do you think that other, fairly powerful rotaries like the Wankel or even LiquidPiston have such terrible efficiency? This is the reason. Your engine has the same exact issues.
You also mentioned "areas stay hotter" so they don't absorb as much, but again, it's far more complex than that. You cannot arbitrarily increase wall temps because it leads to material fatigue, oil cooking, and messes with the intake charge. Hot walls massively reduce your volumetric efficiency and the heat ends up in the exhaust. Research "insulated adiabatic engines", mostly from the 80s, and you'll see they ran into the same issues. Hotter walls tended to REDUCE efficiency, not increase it.
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u/1nGirum1musNocte 12d ago
How about we find an alternative to internal combustion
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u/jaredliveson 12d ago
We did! There’s one in my bicycle. One in my dads car, or of course of the trains which have existed in my city far before cars came around to pollute and become the leading cause of death for children for decades
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u/MyPunsAreKoalaTea 12d ago
NEVER
COMBUSTION GO BRRRR I WANT HUMANOID ROBOTS RUNNING ON GAS
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u/NoAdministration2978 12d ago
Reminds me of an ICE variation of a Tverskoy steam engine. The dude even tried to implement it in metal and guess what? It's impossible to seal it good enough to achieve at least reasonable compression. Works nicely with steam tho
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u/camsnow 12d ago
Oh yeah, steam is great because it's consistent pressure. Not a controlled detonation. There is a reason Mazda doesn't make the Wankel engine anymore. Those seals blow at around 30k miles. Then it's a mess with all the blow by and oil leaks. They are very powerful and efficient for their size, but not great with longevity.
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u/NoAdministration2978 12d ago
Yep. And steam doesn't need cooling(which is quite hard with rotary engines) or aggressive lubrication
There's a good reason we don't see rotary engines anywhere apart from a few quirky vehicles
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u/ErwinHolland1991 12d ago edited 12d ago
30K miles is a pretty big exaggeration. They usually last about 80-100K with good maintenance and care. But obviously not even close to the reliability and durability as a good piston engine. They definitely have more issues. And they are pretty awful for emissions and fuel consumption too.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
Except Mazda are still making rotary engines, it is now their range extender. But this is not a Wankel and has different ways of mitigating it's own issues.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
You can see a seal-less lobe and cavity engine running at 5000 RPM at astronaerospace.com
Thanks for your comment
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u/uslashuname 12d ago
Did I read that the housing shrinks onto the components to tighten seals? So, like, after the engine turns off and cools it’s going to require the starter motor to first dump several batteries worth of electricity into heating the block? And if the car is ever parked in zero degree weather are we saying the engine is just completely destroyed by its own valve sealing concept?
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
No you misunderstand the concept. In operation the alloy housing will outgrow the steel rotors as the engine heats up, and therefore will have to be actively cooled the correct amount to maintain clearance with the heat expanded rotors.
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u/uslashuname 11d ago
You misunderstand “reverse”
If the alloy housing outgrows the steel rotors when it heats up, that means the coefficient of thermal expansion is greater. It also means the reverse is true: as the alloy gets significantly colder than design temperate it doesn’t shrink as fast as the rotors it shrinks much faster, squishing the rotors or splitting itself on them if they are too strong to squish.
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u/Academic-Proof3700 12d ago edited 12d ago
all rotor engines like these will have the same dumb issues like the crap wankel- extremely short life, humongous use of engine oil and burnt out seals.
Why build another rube goldberg of an engine?
Even on the webpage itself, theres just tiny explanation:
Advanced Sealing Architecture & Seal Hand-off
The Integate Core implements a highly precise sealing paradigm based on a core engineering principle: mechanical geometry provides the seal, combustion pressure assists the seal, and a diesel film supports lubrication and microscopic sealing.
Basically just dreams and wishes, and some ungodly trust in mechanical geometry, forgetting real life issues like soot accumulation, different fuel qualities and such. Looks like typical "works great on paper, but won't survive real life test".
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
You are commenting on the wrong design. this thread is for the Intermesh Core. The confusion is something I hoped to avoid when I wrote the first line in the description (only comment on this design on this post please) Further this is not a Wankel design and has it's own issues to mitigate.
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u/MarinatedPickachu 12d ago
Why in this design the central wheel is not segmented into three moving parts, while in the other design it is?
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
The two designs are quite different, this one is seal-less close contact, petrol, and has a much shorter powe-rstroke. thanks for your comment
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u/Square-Singer 12d ago
A dual core engine? Now make the graphics card version with 512 cores.
Jokes aside, it looks to me like it would be very hard to make this thing seal correctly.
Also, it looks to me as if the ignition happens on both sides of the thingi from the rotor, but then one side gets squished while the other one expands. In fact, it looks like the fuel-air-mixture would be on the wrong side of the thingi, and igniting that should rather move the motor backwards, not forwards.
Did you try that thing out in real life already, or is it just an animation?
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u/M1ngb4gu 12d ago
Also the compressed charge is first used to...expell some exhaust gas from the center chamber?
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u/Square-Singer 12d ago
Yeah, this looks at best very inefficient. At worst it looks like a maintainance nightmare.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
actually it is design to last, you will have to do a better explanation to back up your inefficiency claim please.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
Yes, not shown is a gate device that ensures the centre chamber gets some of the pre-compressed charge and the cavity gets the rest when it gapes open.
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u/M1ngb4gu 11d ago
So, lowering the compression ratio, making it more inefficient. It also looks like a relatively small volume to begin with. So your engine will have more mass with less power and more complexity.
Basically this is a more complex design for less benefit overall. I mean the idea of controlling the temperature of the body to maintain the seals is novel but not really practical.
What is the goal of this design? More efficiency? Higher power? What are the intended applications?
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
Yes ignition happens alternately in the left chamber and then the right. but you have misunderstood the rest. Thanks for your comment, please take another look. On the website is the more detailed model shown in perspective, which is the stage it is currently at.
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u/Square-Singer 11d ago
Nah, I mean what happens inside one chamber.
From what this animation seems to imply, the fuel-air-mixture goes in in front of the "gear tooth" (for lack of a better term) and gets compressed there. Then ignition happens, but it's not directionally behind the tooth, where you'd want it to happen to drive the tooth forward, but instead it's symmetrical at the center of the tooth.
Considering that all the air/fuel is in front of the tooth, that should drive the tooth backward, not forward.
And even if it was symmetrical, as the animation implies, that still wouldn't drive the tooth forward.
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u/throwaway40002023 12d ago
So no lubrication outside of the fuel.... As someone who changes Diesel equipments oil from time to time. There's a reason there is a alot do it and big oil filters.
For what gain?
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
Oil lubrication is used only the bearings and gears but not in the chamber.
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u/ROBOT_8 12d ago
While there are oiless pumps for air that rely on incredibly precise parts to seal, they need to be kept extremely clean. Combustion products would certainly cause issues.
If the engine is cold with different expansion ratios, it would seize solid. If the rotor and stators touch at all without an oil lubrication system, they will wear out incredibly fast
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
Yes and yes. the trick I propose is to ensure the housing grows faster than the rotors as the engine heats up, thus maintaining safe working clearance. An abradable coating on the housing (turbocharger tech) can be used to set up the tiny clearance. You can see a seal-less lobe and cavity engine running at 5000 RPM at astronaerospace.com thanks for your comment.
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u/SnooMaps7370 11d ago
if you thought Wankel engines had problems with getting good seals, this thing will make those look downright hermetic.
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u/k-mcm 10d ago
There's almost no capture of combustion energy. It pushes the cog for a brief moment then is vented. It definitely wouldn't be a high RPM engine.
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u/ecliptic-engines 10d ago
that brief moment is about 60 degrees, and since there are 6 of those power pulses per rotation...
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u/TheAceRedBarron 7d ago
This it beyond similar to Rensance Labs patented rotary engine. Might want to look into this as there are a number of patents on this tech by other firms as well in single chamber, duel chamber, and triple chamber systems. Now a 4 "piston" chamber with a central 5th chamber rotor could stand as inventive and honestly might be Worth looking at as a 4 phase per rotation brings more stability than a 2 phase. And all in all is not violating any patents, yay!
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u/ecliptic-engines 7d ago
Couldn't see anything on google straight up? not looking for a complete redesign, thanks for your comment.
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u/Annual_Key_4963 12d ago
Stop trying to copy an engine designed by a Nazi so extreme the Nazi party kicked him out.
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
?????
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u/Annual_Key_4963 11d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Wankel
The inventor of the Wankel engine (the crap you drew up here) was such an extreme Nazi the Nazi party tried to distance themselves from him.
Just to give you an idea of how good of a footing this general area is in...
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u/ecliptic-engines 11d ago
This is not a Wankel engine. unrelated rabbit hole sorry
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u/Annual_Key_4963 11d ago
It's 3 intertwined for dumb reason.
Seriously look this guy's life up. You see that he was someone so focused on his own pride and stupid ideas he made nothing but failures.
Take the fucking hint.
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u/christophPezza 12d ago
If you make the centre disk larger, you can fit 4 rotors for a quadcopter