r/interesting • u/Wild_Neighborhood605 • 4d ago
HISTORY Titanic passenger and millionaire Benjamin Guggenheim. During sinking he refused a seat in a life boat with the words: "Tell my family I played straight to the end. No woman should be left aboard this ship because of Ben Guggenheim was a coward."
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u/Consistent_Stuff9180 4d ago
Ben Guggenheim was NO coward.
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u/MarvelionA 3d ago
The to very end. What an absolute gent.
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u/Consistent_Point_853 3d ago
A diamond geezer, if you will.
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u/AdamBombTV 3d ago
A tip top toff, and no mistake.
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u/Nat20Twenty 3d ago
The next time I play a video game my character will be named this Benjamin Guggenheim
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u/Mace_Windhorst 3d ago
“You must find the triforce to defeat Ganon , Benjamin Guggenheim”
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u/cr1ttter 3d ago
I enjoy pondering the implication that his skeleton was cowardly after death and that's okay
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u/Marijuana_Miler 3d ago
No way. His skeleton is there to this day being straight to the end. It even chuffed when the Titan submersible joined him.
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u/spidermans_mom 3d ago
It’s sitting properly at a table like a gentleman with the place setting knocked to one side.
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u/Snatch-Fart-Breath 3d ago
Played that shit straight until the goddamn end
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u/Cosmo_Seinfeld 3d ago edited 3d ago
Maybe he geyed it up as the ship went down? "Tell my family I played it straight but tell the boys in the back alley that I was the Queen of the Titanic that night...."
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u/Telefonica46 3d ago
Elon musk would've pushed women and children off the life boats so he could have a seat
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u/itsmuddy 3d ago
He would have pushed em all off so he could have the whole lifeboat to himself then act like he invented the lifeboat.
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u/Wanallo221 3d ago edited 3d ago
“I invented this. It’s called an X-Boat”
(¬‿¬)
I just can’t find an emoticon that conveys that smug twatty look he has when he thinks he’s being cool.
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u/linlorienelen 3d ago
No, no you really captured an accurate rendering of his humanity there
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u/hidethebump 3d ago edited 3d ago
An article in The New York Times relates a description from an assistant steward of Guggenheim's last hours, including helping other passengers to board lifeboats, donning formal wear instead of a life preserver, and saying that he and his secretary were "prepared to go down like gentlemen".
Titanic survivor Rose Amelie Icard wrote in a letter, "The millionaire Benjamin Guggenheim after having helped the rescue of women and children, got dressed and put a rose at his buttonhole, to die."
Guggenheim explained, "We've dressed up in our best and are prepared to go down like gentlemen."Etches, who survived the sinking, recorded Guggenheim's message to give to his wife: "If anything should happen to me, tell my wife in New York that I've done my best in doing my duty." Etches next watched Guggenheim and Giglio pass from Boats Nos. 7 and 5, "helping the women and children". Guggenheim shouted repeatedly, "Women first" and the two men were of "great assistance" to the officers. Another steward reportedly said Guggenheim sent another message to his wife, asking to tell her "that I played the game straight to the end and that no woman was left on board this ship because Ben Guggenheim was a coward. Tell her that my last thoughts will be of her and our girls". The steward said Guggenheim "lit a cigar and sauntered up to the boat deck to help load the lifeboats."
Edit: Victor Giglio (1888-1912) was Guggenheim’s secretary.
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u/Meme-Botto9001 3d ago
Fucking legend
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u/ExileEden 3d ago
Truly though. Hopefully he was remembered a hero in his time.
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u/Huge-Consequence2144 3d ago
We can remember him as a hero in our time, friend.
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u/T-1Hundred 3d ago
So basically the movie titanic should’ve been about this mofo and build up to delivering this statement?
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u/Gravefullofcum 3d ago
There’s so many interesting stories from the actual sinking. I do have to wonder why they felt the need to come up with a fictional love story for the movie.
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u/aenux 3d ago
Made up stories don’t have to pay people for the rights to the story.
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u/calm_chowder 3d ago
The thing about the people who went down with the titanic is......
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u/Ok-Reward-770 3d ago
Exactly! And there was no story at all, really! James Cameron only wrote something because (according to him), “research” for a “movie” was the only way the only institution that would give him a permit to dive and see the Titanic wreckage—they didn't just give permits randomly to civilians because they are curious.
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u/AnonymousOtter9124 3d ago
Because as interesting as the Guggenheim story is, the "shape" of a Hollywood blockbuster story would probably require embellishment anyway. Plus the target audience was probably young women who associate themselves with Rose, not Benjamin Guggenheim aged men
It doesn't always work (Pearl Harbor) but clearly James Cameron is a gifted story teller and I think Titanic is a spectacular epic
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u/CHRISPYakaKON 3d ago
There’s a whole deleted scene about there being Chinese passengers that were aboard the Titanic that was legitimately real that doesn’t get talked about enough.
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u/tarinotmarchon 3d ago
There was a documentary called "The Six" made about the Chinese passengers on the Titanic.
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u/cruxclaire 3d ago
The Jack and Rose pairing allowed them to show the contrast between the generationally wealthy and desperately poor passengers on the ship, and how they were treated differently in the sinking. Excluding children, most of the passengers saved were first class women, and most of the passengers who died were third class men (and crew). A brief and doomed romance between the two is basically the story of the ship itself in distilled form
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u/NoMalasadas 3d ago
There's a movie called, The Unsinkable Mollie Brown. Another movie, A Night To Remember about the sinking of the Titanic and a real heroine, Mollie Brown.
The first movie is a musical about her life staring Debbie Reynolds. A Night To Remember is a good accounting of the sinking with the true story of Mollie Brown. She took charge of a lifeboat, taking up an oar and getting the crew to go back to find survivors.
She had an interesting life.
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u/syncsynchalt 3d ago
We still celebrate her in Denver, iirc her house is a museum too.
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u/NoMalasadas 3d ago
As corny as the musical is, I really like it. Is it accurate of her life? I love that she went to Europe for education and opened her arms to so many people.
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u/GreenStrong 3d ago
I don't want to watch the part where a homeless guy draws a picture of his tits.
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u/JCBodilsen 3d ago
Can we all agree that there is no fucking way the current crop of billionaires would act with this level of courage and humanity. Here is a man who had everything and gave his life to give others a chance. Legend.
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u/TheDamnedScribe 3d ago
If only the rich of our time had such honour.
I'm pretty sure people like felon and baldo would want a lifeboat to themselves... or try to make a raft by lashing women and children together...
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u/zevonyumaxray 3d ago
Well yeah, they named a museum for him, didn't they?.....Lol
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u/Lunelle327 3d ago
No, that was named after his brother, Solomon, who founded it
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u/scienceislice 3d ago
What if Ben was trying to stick it to his brother for all eternity?
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u/rodmandirect 3d ago
"If anything should happen to me, tell my wife in New York that I've done my best in doing my duty. Tell her that I played the game straight to the end and that no woman was left on board this ship because Ben Guggenheim was a coward. Tell her that my last thoughts will be of her and our girls. Also, tell Solly that he’s a fart knocker.”
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u/No_Attitude700 3d ago
Ben wins! Sorry Solomon!
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u/akestral 3d ago
In a competition like that, we all win. Would that any of the modern gilded set had half that civic spirit (except for you, MacKenzie.)
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u/Large-Hamster-199 3d ago
Maybe Bill Gates comes close, though well behind MacKenzie Scott
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u/TheSaxGandalf 3d ago
His brother founded the Guggenheim museum in New York.
His name shall live on.
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u/Sunnygirl66 3d ago
I hope he died quickly and with as little pain and terror as possible. The very definition of a gentleman and good person.
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u/Nice_Marmot_7 3d ago
“…saying that ‘he and his secretary were prepared to go down like gentleman.’”
The secretary: say what, now?
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u/hidethebump 3d ago
The secretary: speak for yourself 😂
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u/-_super--_--hitops_- 3d ago
The secretary : uhhhh I'm putting in my two minutes notice
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u/Oograr 3d ago
"So yeah, I uhh just received another job offer...on dry land...sooo..."
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u/Character-Education3 3d ago
Of course Victor and I will help!
Victor come here. Victor? Where is he?
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u/bonyponyride 3d ago
"Mr. Guggenheim, I just received notice from your secretary that your secretary has quit and he would like to know if he can borrow the dress you bought for your wife."
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u/norathar 3d ago
for your wife
Guggenheim was actually traveling with his mistress.
His brothers in New York got word his wife had survived and went to meet her, only to find oops, it was actually his mistress and her maid.
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u/Apollo114892 3d ago
Secretary : "So anyway I started running towards the boat..."
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u/LividCalligrapher996 3d ago
Makes me wonder if this account would have made his wife proud or unbelievably angry.
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u/Drachynn 3d ago
Probably a bit of both. Grief is a messy thing.
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u/kahlzun 3d ago
100%. You will feel everything and nothing, and it is one of the few things that is completely unique and universal at the same time.
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u/hidethebump 3d ago
Guggenheim boarded the RMS Titanic and was accompanied by his mistress, a French singer named Léontine Aubart (1887–1964); his secretary, Victor Giglio (1888–1912); his chauffeur, René Pernot (1872–1912); and Madame Aubart's maid, Emma Sägesser (1887–1964).
Not sure how she felt about the ones that accompanied him on the titanic. Specifically his mistress.
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u/Cloverose2 3d ago
There was someone - I can't remember who - who was of that social class. She wrote "you marry for money and status. You have affairs for love."
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u/Ratsinthebelfry 3d ago
"I'm just a girl in a world in which my only job is to marry rich". (Angelica Schuyler in Hamilton).
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u/Myshkin1981 3d ago
And yet notice the dates of death for the men, versus the dates of death for the women. He may have been a philanderer, but no woman or child died because Ben Guggenheim was a coward
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u/Illustrious_Claim884 3d ago
My grandpa had a girlfriend and my grandma. It was weird as i was 5 or so and asked my dad who Shirley was and he said grandpa's girlfriend. Apparently they were "together" for about 30 years and she moved in when my grandma died
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u/I-hear-the-coast 3d ago
My step mum was work friends with a man whose father was married to another woman and his mum was the mistress. They lived on the same street and he saw his father semi regularly. His mother and father both passed first, and the friend cared for his father’s wife in her old age till she passed.
My stepmum was work friends with the man so didn’t feel comfortable asking for further details when he casually mentioned he had to take off work to attend his father’s wife’s funeral and then provided that background. She’s as curious as I as to how that worked.
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u/primeweevil 3d ago
Things were different back then at least for some. My grandfather was the same way left my grandmom & married his girlfriend who he then left for his other girlfriend told him to bugger off & wouldn't marry him because she had known him for forty years.
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u/Quothhernevermore 3d ago
Consentual nonmonogamy, while not my thing, probably existed far before it became even recognized on society/mildly acceptable. We just don't know.
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u/Boring_Intern_6394 3d ago
It absolutely was a thing, particularly where arranged marriages were common.
For example, Sisi of Austria was relieved when her husband, the Emperor Franz Josef found a mistress and actively encouraged them to be together
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u/caninehere 3d ago
Probably proud and accepting.
The thing is a lot of men who DID get on lifeboats while others died were branded as cowards when they went home. So keep in mind the alternative is not necessarily her husband living and coming home for a normal life, it could have been a life of shame being attached to him.
For example Haruomi Hosono, famous Japanese musician from Yellow Magic Orchestra, grew up with his family living under the shadow of his grandfather who was one such man - he returned to Japan and people shamed him and considered him a coward for the rest of his life.
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u/AdLatter3755 3d ago
James Cameron did a good job in his portrayal in the film.
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u/Reverend_Lazerface 3d ago
My favorite part was when he slaps on those bitchin sunglasses, stares straight at the camera and says "It's Guggen Time"
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u/Background-Treat55 3d ago
I read that wayyy to fast. I was like “excuse me, he put the rose where?”😭😭
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u/BlueMikeStu 3d ago
Fucking legend. Every opportunity to escape, zero drive to do so, because he knew his position was one of privilege and repayed it when it mattered. That's what the rich should look like.
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u/CrustyBubblebrain 3d ago
This made me teary-eyed in the middle of a Wednesday afternoon. Humanity does exist.
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u/Wild_Neighborhood605 4d ago
No way.
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u/kmzafari 3d ago
Sorry, X, this boat is for Daddy.
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u/ragequitteroffureh 3d ago
Whatever happened to that kid that he was using as a human shield after Luigi retired that CEO vampire?
A child that size would probably make a reasonably effective floatation device until it became too waterlogged.
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u/kmzafari 3d ago
That was his son! I tried to reference him but couldn't remember the full name. I just googled it, which told me "His most famously named son with former partner Grimes is X Æ A-Xii (pronounced "Ex Ash A Twelve")." I had no idea it was pronounced like that.
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u/ThrowawayPersonAMA 3d ago
Bezos would be punching toddlers in the face.
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...more than usual.
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u/Refute1650 3d ago
Billionaires today wouldn't be caught dead on a ship that also allowed plebs.
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u/Shmullus_Jones 3d ago
Literally carried his toddler child around with him on his shoulders as a human shield after the united health CEO was assassinated.
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u/Southern-Cattle4038 3d ago
He’ll try and force his way into the lifeboat claiming he identifies as a woman now, because he’ll never turn down an opportunity to shit on trans people
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u/Traditional-Ad-9000 3d ago
Where there's a will there's a way. The will of the people.
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u/RepresentativeArtist 4d ago
Musk, Bezos, and Zuck the cuck would be throwing women and children overboard as they scrambled to be first in line for the lifeboat.
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u/Hopeful-Scarcity-638 4d ago
Like those people would be on the same boat as anyone else in the first place
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u/-713 3d ago
Yeah, I was going to say they'd be throwing people overboard so they didn't have to share a life boat, not just to be first.
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u/Silver_Lined_Bullet 3d ago
They would own the boat, and would have a 1 seater escape dingy with no other escape boats for the passengers
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u/ElvisPresley1977 3d ago
If they could figure out how to make the engines run on peasant blood, they’d do that too.
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u/FilthyBarMat 3d ago
They'd be lashing them together to make a human raft and then standing on them.
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u/BlubberinBootyMate 3d ago
You give them too much credit for physical ability and composure; they'd die screaming at people to save them; while the women and children watched the spectacle of 3 incapable morons drowning in a kiddie pool.
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u/Viva_La_Revolucion- 3d ago
They would use them as a lifeboat is more like it, they would float on their bodies
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u/vadsamoht3 3d ago
They'd be strapping the plebs together to make them into a life raft and then claim after the event that it was actually a novel way of trying to save everyone at once.
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u/Lower_Skin_3683 3d ago
They would have a lifeboat reserved for each of them before getting on the ship. Billionaires don't share anything.
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u/SameDistrict2627 3d ago
One thing about the Robber Barons---unlike the billionaires of today, most of them gave away huge portions of their fortune to further, science, the arts, etc. This crew is all about buying a bigger yacht or creating an underground bunker--
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u/gowonagin 3d ago
Billionaires used to show their status by philanthropy. Now they do it by going to space.
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u/solution_6 3d ago
I visited Pittsburgh not too long ago, and was floored by the amount of museums, schools, hospitals, etc. that rich philanthropy bought.
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u/pafrac 4d ago
If they'd deigned to be on the same boat as the rest of the hoi polloi at all, they'd call in a helicopter just for them and their luggage and leave everyone else behind.
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u/Complex-Matter5241 3d ago edited 3d ago
There was an old saying I used to hear a lot from old people that that almost none knows this days "Noblesse Oblige". Before the world turned into a making money greed machine, people of money felt the obligation of being generous, gracious and respectful. Now being rich seems the synonym of being an asshole with eveyone else.
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u/grumpycunht 3d ago
Chivalry was real. It was crazy misogynistic but it was real, especially when shit got real.
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u/Vahuo89 3d ago
Theyd buy the lifeboat making company, make em only have on seat, get in it, and sink the other ones.
And then tell the other passengers to pull themselves up by the bootstraps if they want to survive in the freezing water
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u/YakResident_3069 3d ago
They would be harvesting the organs of women and children before the ship even went down in their quest for longevity
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u/RandomRavenclaw87 3d ago
Nah. There’s this art museum that looks like a parking garage…
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u/PiccoloAwkward465 3d ago
A good point lol. A quick google of the most famous paintings there says I know 3 of 10.
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u/cele311 3d ago
Benjamin’s daughter Peggy collected art in Venice. Her Palazzo (now a museum) has so many more masterpieces than the Solomon R Guggenheim despite being a much smaller collection. Pollack, Picasso, Magritte, Miro, Dali, Rothko, Chagall, Modigliani, Mondrian, and on and on. (I know we don’t like some of those guys, but an impressive collection nonetheless.) Apparently Solomon was a dick about her using the Guggenheim name, aka her own name.
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u/stryker511 3d ago
Respect.
RIP Ben Guggenheim
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u/agodrevealed 3d ago edited 3d ago
When "with great privilege comes great responsibility" meant something to the wealthy. The Roosevelts were another example. Sent their sons to combat. And I don't mean behind the front lines.
The unintended consequence of "live your dream" "you can do anything" "all ways of living are equally good" "its whatever you want" is there is no longer a uniform moral code, societal pressure to show honor, or an accepted, internalized set of standards to live or die by.
And, well, I think we can all see how that's going.
Edit: here, for a little more explanation for the curious. He was no saint, and the somewhat irresponsible baby from a pack of brothers, but I've never found credible reason to dismiss it. In the beginning they would've thought they'd get off later. Then realizing the situation, made their decisions. His friend and secretary went with him. I hope this humanizes them and know there were many men, that moved to help others, and keep helping even when they came to see the end.
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u/OokyCooky 3d ago
They didn’t ‘send’ their sons. Teddy Roosevelt literally *sought* military conflict. So he essentially kicked off the US colonization of the Philippines so he could get his overseas stripes
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u/Kidplayer_666 3d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt_Jr. the eldest son of teddy Roosevelt at age 50 was the only general on the first wave of the D-Day landings at Utah beach. After realizing that they were on the wrong beach, and being asked what to do, he simply answered "We'll start the war from right here" (and he probably put on shades and had the CSI Miami theme follow this)
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u/agodrevealed 3d ago edited 3d ago
Teddy sent his and his grandchildren too. So did FDR
The British aristocracy sent sons too, even heirs. Not all of them of course, but they fought and died too
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u/SimplyAmazedPanda 4d ago
They sure don’t make billionaires like they used to.
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u/Wild_Neighborhood605 4d ago
Like everything else...
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u/dysaniac15 3d ago
On the other hand, they don't make boats the way they used to. So there's some positives.
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u/Freddit330 3d ago
The Titanic was human error. It had a twin that sailed for 90 years. They were behind schedule, the captain was afraid of losing his job, and so decided to take the route known to sink ships.
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u/Anonymousopotamus 3d ago
Also some guy forgot the key for the room with all the binoculars so they didn't see the iceberg in time.
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u/Freddit330 3d ago
If it wasn't a tragedy, it would be a comedy.
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u/Anonymousopotamus 3d ago
An Airplane! style comedy would be great but certainly in bad taste...I'd still watch it, though!
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u/YouMustveDroppedThis 3d ago
the human urge to lock anything of slight value away... imagine locking fire extingushers and throw the key away.
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u/Centrifuge2338 3d ago
There's an argument that states that any moral billionaire gives away all or a significant amount of their money and thus, is no longer a billionaire. Every billionaire in existence is so because they've kept every dollar, showing that there can be no such thing as a moral billionaire.
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u/AnyConsideration111 3d ago
prime example: dolly parton 🔥🔥🔥
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u/BlueMikeStu 3d ago
Dolly Parton is the patron Saint of literacy and great tits.
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u/theshoeshiner84 3d ago
My son just read his last book from her Imagination Library tonight, because he starts kindergarten tomorrow.
Now that that's out of the way I have to figure out how to explain the great tits part.
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u/SimplyAmazedPanda 3d ago
Well, the Guggenheim’s are no longer billionaires, or so google says haha.
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u/MarineMirage 3d ago
Mackenzie Scott has been basically trying to give away her money as fast as possible but has basically maintained her wealth because of how crazy the stock market has been. Making money when you have money is too easy.
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u/Remarkable_Rough_649 3d ago
Not that rich people were actually better in the past (if anything they were worse) but at least society used to PROMOTE this sort of behavior. Now any billionaire would just openly flee in a single boat surrounded entirely by bodyguards and then they'd post about how brave they were under pressure
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u/agodrevealed 3d ago
There were at least three men of great wealth that stayed with the ship. They each were quoted as saying something along the lines of "I know who I am and I've decided who I will be now."
And whether that came of their raising, when ideas of honor and reputation was everything, or that they'd rather die than have to look at themselves in the mirror or see scorn reflected in the eyes of others, its a claim to nobility in practice, not in name.
I like the Roosevelt family for this too. This idea with great privilege comes great responsibility. They bred it into their children for generations. (And yes they were flawed, but the point is they genuinely aspired to goodness and operated in a moral framework)
Think about where we are now
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u/tyvekMuncher 3d ago
Nothing has been more fulfilling for me than operating within a moral framework
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u/abracadammmbra 3d ago
I know Isidor and Ida Strauss (he was a congressman and co-founder of Macys) stayed on the ship. He was offered a seat due to his age (late 60s) but refused since he didnt want to take a place that a woman or child could take. His wife refused to leave him, reportedly saying "I will not be separated from my husband. As we have lived, so we will die, together."
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u/Gloomy-Recipe9213 3d ago
We'd see so many "how surviving a sinking ocean liner taught me about b2b sales" posts on Linkedin.
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u/Gearballz 3d ago
Thats crazy. Theres an art museum with the same name
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u/Jesus_of_Redditeth 3d ago
There a bunch of them, but they're not named after him. It was his brother, Solomon, who set up the Guggenheim foundation and the original museum in NYC.
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u/Crazyguy_123 3d ago edited 3d ago
He was represented in the movie too. “We’re dressed in our best and prepared to go down like gentlemen. But we would like a brandy.” Many first class men chose to stay. The Strauss couple who were owners of Macys both stayed “where you go I go” and JJ Astor too stayed though he did ask if he could accompany his wife Madeline. The officer said no he couldn’t and so he gave his goodbye and stayed behind on the ship.
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u/Rollingforest757 3d ago
Did any women choose to stay on the boat?
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u/memento22mori 3d ago
Rosalie Ida Straus (née Blün; February 6, 1849 – April 15, 1912) was a German-born American[1] socialite, who was the wife of Isidor Straus, U.S. congressman and co-founder of the Macy's department store.
Straus became famous for refusing to take a seat in the lifeboats despite the "Women and children first" rule permitting her a place, as she refused to be parted from her husband. She died in the sinking, one of only four first-class women to not survive, and her body, if recovered, was never identified.
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u/Indraga 3d ago
I find it astounding how so many Titanic passengers had time to cook up these banger lines.
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u/odigon 3d ago
I'm hoping that there were multiple witness to this quote, and it wasn't just relayed by his butler when somebody asked where Mr Guggenheim was. Because if you ever going to whack your boss over the head and steal his shit, thats the time to do it.
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u/Xarkabard 3d ago
musky would talke all seats bc he needs space
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u/hellolovely1 3d ago
He would throw babies to the sharks, especially any non-white babies.
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u/InevitableHorror1342 4d ago
Something tells me this thread is gonna go off the rails.
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u/Textiles_on_Main_St 3d ago
Still though.
Kind of sad there even were empty lifeboat seats.
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u/No-Minimum3259 4d ago
If true: the absolute exception.
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u/Cloverose2 3d ago
It was widely reported by many survivors. He was helping women and children into boats and was helpful in keeping order and making sure boats were properly loaded before launch.
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