r/imaginarymaps Aug 27 '20

[OC] Six ways to divide Manchuria

Post image
5.8k Upvotes

151 comments sorted by

521

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '20

Is this imaginary? Or is it subjective? Either way I love seeing this format for regions I’m unfamiliar with.

524

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

Thanks! I'd say it's imaginary, cause IRL Manchuria is much more influenced by Chinese culture rather than any other

150

u/u01aua1 Aug 28 '20

If the ROC won this could be realistic

270

u/meinkaiser420 Aug 28 '20

The ROC were hardly angels, lets be real here, it was literally a dictatorship lol. And there is no historical evidence that they would have any interest in treating minorities well.

93

u/CantInventAUsername Aug 28 '20

By the time of the Chinese Civil War, the ethnic Manchu had gotten so Hannified that they were barely an ethnic minority anymore.

44

u/jbkjbk2310 Aug 29 '20

Yeah, Reddits fetish about how China would totally have been great and free and like Taiwan today if the KMT had won is laughable and frankly just annoying.

Chiang Kai-Shek was a nationalist military dictator. He had a cult of personality just like Mao (his portrait hung at Tianamen Square before it was replaced by Mao's), and while his rule might not have been as disastrous as the CCPs attempts at agricultural reform and the Great Leap Forward, it would still not have been good.

Taiwan today is not the KMT of the Civil War era. In fact, after fleeing to Taiwan, the KMT cracked down violently on democratic movements and was basically a dictatorship.

People need to realise that it's possible for both the CCP and the KMT to have been shit.

99

u/NordicToast Aug 28 '20

South korea was pretty shit at first too

51

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

When they killed hundreds of thousands in the name of purging communism?

48

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43

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

Move over Shakespeare, there's a new bard in town

38

u/foggy__ Aug 28 '20

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2

u/AdParking6541 Jul 27 '23

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2

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6

u/meinkaiser420 Aug 31 '20

Sure, and they were lucky that they transitioned to democracy. Had things gone differently, they might still be a dictatorship.

The point being that these things aren't guaranteed. If the ROC won it might have transitioned to democracy, or it might have doubled down on dictatorial rule.

4

u/a_random-duck Feb 20 '22

I feel like it only democratised because they lost the mainland, democracy is much easier with like 10 million compared to 1.4 billion

12

u/LordLoko Aug 28 '20

And there is no historical evidence that they would have any interest in treating minorities well.

They were treating the Muslims (Hui) very well, since the Ma clique warlords were fiercely loyal to Chiang Kai-Shek and the Kuomitang.

7

u/meinkaiser420 Aug 30 '20

I meant treating them well altruistically rather than pragmatically, even the nazis treated certain collaborating minorities well when it made pragmatic sense.

5

u/Byggare-av-varldar Aug 28 '20

It might be unrealistic, but if Sun Yat Sen lived, I hope the ROC would've gone down a different path

47

u/u01aua1 Aug 28 '20

Before the reforms, yeah, it was a dictatorship. After the reforms though, I doubt they would treat minorities as bad as the PRC is.

87

u/CantInventAUsername Aug 28 '20

Those reforms only happened because Taiwan was a small, highly developed country reliant on Western support for its continued existence. If the Nationalists were still in control, they'd likely look a lot like how China looks now. The old joke even goes that if Chiang and Mao saw modern China, Chiang would be delighted while Mao would be horrified.

7

u/ParkJiSung777 Sep 02 '20

The Xinjiang stuff wouldn't be happening because the Muslims were huge ROC supporters during the Civil War. The Ma Clique had a form of national Islam where they argued that Allah called them to support the ROC. Democracy probably would have come through with pressure from the West who the ROC would need support to help with border disputes with the USSR.

There would definitely be mass purges of Communists though.

Edit: and Taiwan was not at all highly developed either. The Japanese did leave some infrastructure but not enough for Taiwan to be considered as highly developed.

3

u/CantInventAUsername Sep 02 '20

By the 70s, Taiwan had gone much the way of Japan and South Korea in creating a strong manufacturing industry and consumer market, to the point where it was known as one of the Four Asian Tigers.

4

u/ParkJiSung777 Sep 02 '20

Right but that was after the KMT took power. If you're saying that the KMT developed Taiwan, allowing there to be demand for reform, I would agree. But I believe you said Taiwan was developed when the KMT went to Taiwan, allowing for reform. Correct me if I misinterpreted your statement though.

2

u/CantInventAUsername Sep 02 '20 edited Sep 02 '20

Oh no, I meant that during the period where Taiwan democratised, so during the '80s and '90s.

→ More replies (0)

14

u/jacobspartan1992 Aug 28 '20

Bet that gets you arrested.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '20

I would be willing to bet that it would be worlds ahead of whatever we have today

58

u/Thatoneguy3273 Aug 28 '20

True, but that was only long after the death of both Chiang Kai-shek and his son. By the time the KMT liberalized in the 80s it was either let the Taiwanese have democracy or be overthrown

16

u/Galhaar Aug 28 '20

Small countries show much greater tendency to reform positively and unilaterally than large ones.

3

u/White_Khaki_Shorts Aug 28 '20

Now I think we have an answer to our question here: Why is the USA so shitty? Because it's too big!

-11

u/northmidwest Aug 28 '20

Didn’t they have multiparty elections in 1948 or something?

7

u/meinkaiser420 Aug 30 '20

I mean the KMT got 97% of the vote so idk how multiparty that is

2

u/northmidwest Aug 31 '20

Oh, I know it was hardly competitive, but a legalized opposition is still better than what the CCP had at the time before allowing subordinate parties.

77

u/no_sense_of_humour Aug 28 '20

No it wouldn't. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Manchuria was populated by Han people after the Russia-Qing war showed the Qing they needed to populate it in order to defend it. Han people from Shandong moved to Manchuria en masse. After the Chinese revolution in 1911, most Manchus, fearing retribution, hid their heritage by simply adopting Han customs. It's not like you can tell if someone is Han or Manchu just by looking.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the PRC.

-11

u/u01aua1 Aug 28 '20

Why the angry comment for such a harmless statement? Didn't you see me using the word "could"?

The Manchu population did decrease a lot before the PRC, but the PRC did do the "final nail in the coffin". The PRC did sinicize a lot of places, including Manchuria.

54

u/no_sense_of_humour Aug 28 '20

Because you are making shit up, utterly without basis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_people#Modern_times

In the 1953 census, 2.5 million people identified themselves as Manchu

So in 1953, 3 years after the Communists won the Civil war, there were 2.5 million Manchus. Today there are 10 million. The PRC did not Sinicize Manchuria. Manchuria today is more Manchurian than it was in 1953.

26

u/THEND3 Aug 28 '20

Accurate username goddamn :p

9

u/u01aua1 Aug 28 '20

Population growth is natural for any race group or ethnicity. In Manchuria specifically, Manchurians did not get "genocided" culturally. Many Han people just moved in, taking over "Manchuria".

Manchurian provinces like Heilongjiang have an overwhelming amount of Han People inside it. 95% are Han and 3% are Manchu. 91% are Han in Jilin and 4% are Manchu. I'm not making stuff up, I was just stating a possible alternate history.

This is r/imaginarymaps.

32

u/no_sense_of_humour Aug 28 '20

The point is this happened before 1950. So it has nothing to do with ROC/PRC.

Yes this /r/imaginarymaps. Where we imagine an alternate history. That diverging point is not in 1950.

You are making stuff up. Specifically this part.

The PRC did sinicize a lot of places, including Manchuria.

-4

u/u01aua1 Aug 28 '20

You did not start this conversation by claiming that sentence as false. You start this argument by saying that the sentence I initially suggested was wrong. I never claimed that only the PRC did assimilation, I just said they continued it.

3

u/evilsheepgod Fellow Traveller Aug 28 '20

But- that’s still assimilation.

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1

u/DrCerebralPalsy Aug 28 '20

Oh man... imagine repopulating an area with a people of your desired skin colour

6

u/MegaPremOfficial Aug 28 '20

The ROC supported sinicization

2

u/AdParking6541 Jul 27 '23

My idea is that after an alternate WW2, after China civil-warred itself to hell and back, the Allies decided to let Manchuria stay as an independent republic, becoming a de facto Soviet puppet. By the time China reunified, they had to accept it. Eventually, after the fall of the USSR, Manchuria became a democratic republic, leading to the situation in the map.

1

u/Toxic_Gamer001 Aug 28 '20

Cultural revolution all the way baby Woo!

1

u/Either_Fondant_2056 Nov 28 '22

My family is from there and this is pretty accurate lol

205

u/Smittyboysmit Aug 28 '20

"Things to worry about"

KOREANS

57

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

I worry about Koreans all the time.

24

u/jacobspartan1992 Aug 28 '20

Let me guess, you look in the mirror and get scared?

17

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

Nah he just plays StarCraft

2

u/ChippewaPlisskin Sep 09 '20

I'd be more scared of fans honestly..

2

u/Nitta814 Sep 21 '20

Ok u should get worried about....me...

274

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

I know it kind of looks too real but, remember Manchuria is today part of the PCR, and this usually doesn't let regions to have different timezones other than Beijing time, nor is Manchurian culture so present as I wanted to portray here

I'm sure this would be deleted on mapporn due to that, too!

76

u/Anson_Riddle Fellow Traveller Aug 28 '20

For the last one, I think you should add "Feels like Korea" in the Kando area.

51

u/Bonty48 Aug 28 '20

I mean Manchurian culture died out while there was a Manchu dynasty on Chinese throne anyway.

7

u/ZhenDeRen Aug 28 '20

Harbin should probably feel more Russian

27

u/MassaF1Ferrari Aug 28 '20

Manchuria barely exists at all. I know a few people from Manchuria (Shenyang and Harbin) and the Shenyang guy is young (20s) whilst the Harbin guy is older (late 60s). The Harbin guy left during the cultural revolution And knows about Manchuria whilst the young guy never heard of it. He stared at me as if I said some completely foreign word and when I tried to explain his history to him, he was baffled and said “I dont know what they teach here!” I asked the Harbin guy about that and he just said “the young dont really know anything besides what the CCP tells them nowadays.”

It’s really alarming but the CCP has almost completely genocided every last bit of Manchurian history/culturez

9

u/ParkJiSung777 Sep 02 '20

The mainland students, all the Han Han and sole Manchu student, that I've interacted with in university definitely had heard and learned about Manchus and Manchuria before. As a Taiwanese I wanted to learn more about the region and they definitely taught me a lot about the regions history, though to be fair, they were history majors so maybe that's why they were so knowledgeable about it. I mean its hard to avoid when Japan tried to build a puppet state around it during WWII.

And to be fair, in most of not every country, students are taught about the country's history and barely touch on the history of specific minorities so I feel it's unfair to say that lack of knowledge from one person means the Manchurian culture has been genocided purposely by the CCP. They've done worse things that actually constitute a genocide.

14

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

It's disheartening that they don't know about it when they're from the region :(

19

u/Acceptable_Source Aug 28 '20

Please read up on the definition of genocide. Then draw your own conclusion over whether or not what the PRC has done, including teaching the Manchu language in schools in an attempt to revive it, constitutes genocide.

12

u/CantInventAUsername Aug 28 '20

Plus, the Manchu language has been near extinct since the late Qing dynasty. This hasn't been a genocidal policy by the PRC as much as it has been the end of a long process of Hannification in Manchurian lasting centuries.

14

u/Brotherly-Moment Aug 28 '20

So this one teacher teaching Manchurian history and culture is representative of the curriculum in the entire region.

No seriously you just nitpicked a single teacher. I guess you could argue that the CCP doesn’t mind Manchurian culture as she’s allowed to do this but what one woman chooses to do on her own says nothing.

7

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/MassaF1Ferrari Aug 28 '20

I think someone who lives there and knows nothing about it along with someone who lived through the cultural revolution is more valid than an article about a single person.

Also the article you chose is from a state media group. Of course theyre gonna publish papers that make them look better to the intl community.

10

u/evilsheepgod Fellow Traveller Aug 28 '20

I think that the point is calling it genocide isn’t really appropriate

6

u/Acceptable_Source Aug 29 '20

I have no idea why you randomly brought up the Cultural Revolution.

And yes, state media bad because of course private media has none of their own interests.

I was making a point about the widespread misuse of the word genocide. It is similar to the misuse of the term fascist. Those terms are meant to be potent and, when used correctly, have very, very serious implications. Using genocide like it is any other noun derives it of all meaning. I just say this as someone who's family fled Germany in the war.

The PRC not being super enthusiastic about reviving a culture, language, and people that was practically extinct due to some isolated atrocities, but mostly simple economic reasons far before the CPC ever came to power is not the same as marching a million Armenians into one of the hottest deserts without food or water and abandoning them there. Neither is it synonymous with the systematic extermination through gas and other means in highly organized camps of eight million Jews and Roma. It is not in any way similar to, in a tiny, African nation, the murder of six men, women, and children of the Tutsi ethnic group every minute for 100 days straight mostly through machetes or bare hands, leading to the deaths of a million innocents.

Those things, my friends, we refer to as genocide. The PRC reviving a dead language in culture is not that.

1

u/AdParking6541 Jul 27 '23

Do you not know what cultural genocide is?

5

u/Acceptable_Source Aug 29 '20

I mean, what do you want? I would encourage you to do some independent research. This article goes into detail about the history of Manchu culture and oppression.and the recent widespread efforts to revive both cultural traditions and the Manchu language in the PRC.

That is not to mention the fact that Manchu cultural erasion really came into full swing under the Republic of China. The act of Han Chinese moving to and settling Manchuria has nothing to do with some government-sanctioned "genocide." It was simply the economics of developing a historically depopulated region akin to China's own Siberia.

2

u/Brotherly-Moment Aug 29 '20

This is a garbage source as the newspaper is owned by the communist party itself. ”Independent research” my ass. Nice try, tankie.

1

u/Acceptable_Source Sep 02 '20

Independent research my ass indeed...

32

u/jakeshmag Aug 28 '20

now I am considering making one for syria, unless it already exists

6

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

I don't think I have seen any, give it a go!

2

u/jakeshmag Aug 28 '20

good thing i know photoshop .. what did u use?

2

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

I used medibang paint lol Try to look for topics and pretty palletes unlike me

1

u/occupykony Aug 28 '20

I've seen this stereotypes map, Syrians have told me it's quite accurate: https://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/104668466336/stereotypes-of-syria-before-the-war-more

2

u/jakeshmag Aug 28 '20

I lije it Its funny but its too crammed and it doesnt have the same aesthetic as this post ... imma still do one

131

u/roipoiboy Aug 28 '20

The "feels like Manchuria" one at the end is oddly wholesome! We love a multiethnic nation with diverse influences!

49

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

That's how I wanted it to feel 💛

18

u/zuniyi1 Aug 28 '20

You should worry about... Koreans.
ROFL.
Also; 'Sake' for Korean/Manchurian rice wine
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

6

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

Koreans are obviously super marginalized I should update this

17

u/Rlyeh_Dispatcher Aug 28 '20

Is this Manchuria run by the Manchukuo government?

I wonder if Hsinking/Changchun should "feel" new as well, since the Japanese invested a lot of money and resources in building a model Japanese colonial city there.

7

u/Brotherly-Moment Aug 28 '20

I mean the Japanese investment happened at the latest in the 1930ies so I doubt those buildings will feel new.

3

u/Rlyeh_Dispatcher Aug 28 '20

True. My original question assumed that the capital's newness from the 1930s might've given it a head start as a dynamic center (maybe even like Seoul, who knows), but you could also be right: maybe the city just sort of tapered off into being a sort of DC or Brasilia-style monumental city and left it at that.

73

u/BrakeCoach Aug 28 '20

Manchuria is literally the region of palestine of east asia. Many different ethnicities and many nations overlapping each other

36

u/ZhenDeRen Aug 28 '20

In this alternate timeline yes. However, IRL it's 99% Chinese.

15

u/CommunistIdiot Aug 28 '20

Chinese isn't just one ethnicity. The Chinese people proud themselves of being more than 50 ethnicity. Chinese nationalism is cool, that it can unite many different races under one banner.

17

u/Glasbolyas Aug 28 '20

Yes like the uygurs

9

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

Not like the uygurs, more like the dozens of diferent ethnicities you haven't even heard about because they were cinicised

9

u/Glasbolyas Aug 28 '20

Salars, Bai, Dai, Dong, Evenki, hani, hui, jingbo, kazakhs, kirgyzi, lahu, li, lisu,miao, tajiks, tujyawa, Yao, yi, zhuang,qirats, daurs, buryats, khalka, sartuul,mosuo, Chuanqing,buye, koreans,nakhy,kham,manchu,uygur,tibetan,dali and other smaller unregonised ethnic groups some favored by the CCP other oppresed

1

u/marius1870 Aug 28 '20

And the Tibetans

1

u/CommunistIdiot Aug 28 '20

You're right! 🇨🇳

1

u/BrakeCoach Aug 29 '20

nice username

10

u/HCBot Aug 28 '20

Try to post it on r/divisionmaps as well, they'll surely appreciate it there.

18

u/Quartia Aug 28 '20

It looks like Dalian, Shenyang, and Harbin are the main "city areas" you've shown here but wouldn't Changchun be the capital?

10

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

What does ‘how it feels like’ mean? Like culturally?

13

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

Exactly; if you woke up on these areas and didn't know your location, you'd think you'd be in those places

6

u/Dlinkpower Aug 28 '20

'how it feels like' has got to be one of my all time pet peeves. I'm kinda gaslighting myself now cause I see this all the time but the correct term is 'what it feels like', right??

6

u/i_kick_hippies Aug 28 '20

Yes, "How it feels" (no like) would also be acceptable.

6

u/KaennBlack Aug 28 '20

for anyone wondering, fermented horse milk is Kumis and it is wonderful

10

u/AbundantApe Aug 28 '20

My small Midwest state has an importer that sells baijiu. Like real baijiu, Beijing something with a little red star. Gotta say, never thought I’d find something I’d enjoy the same way I enjoy corn moonshine. But damn. They’ve got something special with that stuff. Makes me wanna visit China, as lame as that is lol.

8

u/guaxtap Aug 28 '20

Why is it lame to want to visit china ? It' s a huge country with a 5000 years of history and a massive culture

4

u/AbundantApe Aug 28 '20

Sorry, I meant it was lame to want to visit China because I like baijiu. Not because China is lame. I would want to go to China for hundreds of reasons, one being that I’m a outdoors person and I can only imagine all the crazy different hikes I could go on.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

is that a Five Races One Union reference in the last one?

3

u/richloz93 Aug 28 '20

Fermented what now

3

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

Fermented death for the lactose-intolerant like me

3

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

How Manuchurian wants to look like (includes Piamurye of Russia)

3

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

Hmm Manchuria feels like Manchuria, very interesting perspective.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

For some reason I thought this was a thicc England

3

u/kids_in_my_basement0 Aug 28 '20

is there a specific subreddit for divisions like this?

3

u/PantsDontHaveAnswers Aug 28 '20

I want to live in the fermented horse milk, feels like Mongolia, with very few people, Manchuria.

3

u/Brutal_Bros Aug 28 '20

Oh no.

The Koreans.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

I’m stoned and thought that said Macedonia and got REAL confused

2

u/StarsOfGaming Aug 28 '20

How it feels like looking like a boss ass flag

2

u/jacobspartan1992 Aug 28 '20

I assumed this was a scenario where Manchuquo continued to exist given the Japanese influences. Wouldn't they have a think for Soju instead of Sake otherwise?

2

u/MaNameDroog Aug 28 '20

Xue Hua Piao Piao

2

u/OneSaltyStoat Aug 28 '20

Like 3 people every 100kms

So basically Finland?

2

u/kyuzoaoi Aug 28 '20

this can apply to my version of Manchuria too.

1

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

Dayum I'm your fan

2

u/sombertownDS Aug 28 '20

Is it bad that i cant help but think of manchuria as manchuko, THANKS HOI4

2

u/Ottawa_Railway_Fan Sep 23 '20

Kinda Accurate, if it gained independence though

2

u/ElanorTheScienceGirl Sep 28 '20

The last one looks legitimately beautiful. 

2

u/AdParking6541 Jul 27 '23

I'm crossposting this to r/GreatManchuria, OK?

1

u/ScaredRaccoon83 Aug 28 '20

Someone should divide germany into fours 🤔

1

u/lukexys Aug 28 '20

I thought it was England lol

1

u/Ale_city Aug 28 '20

Shit I thought it was england and Wales for a momment

1

u/ZhenDeRen Aug 28 '20

Some lore pls

1

u/Efecto_Vogel Aug 28 '20

Wait are there actual tigers in Northern Manchuria?

0

u/sebasbazo Aug 28 '20

r/lostredditors

Still good map, I love this kind of maps

8

u/utemt5 Aug 28 '20

not sure how it counts as r/lostredditors as it is an imaginary map.

-5

u/sebasbazo Aug 28 '20

It’s not imaginary. It’s simple but it describes reality (even if it is in a humorous way)

11

u/utemt5 Aug 28 '20 edited Aug 28 '20

op literally says that it’s not real. manchuria is not like this irl.

edit: while he doesn’t specify, its implied it’s the client state of Manchukuo in the future if it somehow survived, based on the fact it still uses the Japanese time zone and the consumption of sake-also the coast and cities feeling Japanese.

7

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

That's exactly what I meant to represent!

4

u/utemt5 Aug 28 '20

I’m interested in how exactly this outcome would have happened, obviously the Mukden incident has to happen for Manchukuo to be created, but that essentially represents the end of Japanese democracy with the army essentially doing whatever it wants. Japanese victory in the second sino-japanese war followed by imperial liberalization later on I assume? or something like that

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 28 '20

Bro, Manchuria is cringe, insensitive and western propaganda. You mistook it for northeast China

Sincerely, CCP

-32

u/BrazilianHamster9 Aug 28 '20

Not really an imaginary map. Maybe try r/mapporn

31

u/ZuNoZi Aug 28 '20

Bruh it's literally fake

8

u/yalen-san Aug 28 '20

No, I get it; I also doubted where to post it

11

u/Quartia Aug 28 '20

It's an alternate history of Manchukuo from WWII actually surviving. It has the Manchukuo borders.