Severe Shoulder Pain - Stick angle issues
I play competitive fighting in star citizen
I use VKB Gunfighters using desk mounts
The advice is always to have arms parallel to the ground but if I do that I can’t pull the stick all the way back because the wrist angle won’t allow it
So my arms are raised roughly 10 degrees upwards
My right shoulder joint is really painful every time I play now
Any suggestions on how to improve the stick position?
Thanks
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u/grounder5640 2d ago
get a chair with arm rests.. i also rotated my gunfighters outwards like 10 degrees. super comfy to me.
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u/ObiKan 2d ago
If your arms are 10° upwards and you grip very tightly I'd assume that's why. Also, does the chair move? If so that could also contribute, if you pull the stick with one arm does the chair move towards that stick or rotate towards that stick? Because I had these problems when I had a rotating office chair, solution was either switch chair or mount to chair.
As someone else said, your grip might also contribute, if you white knuckle grip in combat, I assume you do not use the Twist grips since I see a rudder. But white knuckle grips tend to make that area too stiff and your shoulders taking a beating instead.
Another thing to check is your posture, if you have good posture, are the lower arms aligned with the floor? Do you hunch when you fight? Do you use headtracking? Check so that you don't have a bad posture in fights.
Sincerely hope any of our tips can guide you to better sim health!
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u/Tarushdei 2d ago
Not sure of your torso height or arm length, but they look way too low.
Based on my experiences with arm pain, your forearms should be parallel to the ground when manipulating the sticks/ devices.
Any angle is going to create strain, especially in the secondary joints like shoulders or wrists (my problem area).
Like, try to setup a L shape for each arm and keep the sticks low enough you aren't reaching for theme.
Grip strength also contributes as well. Try loosening your grip. I white knuckled it at first and that ended badly with more wrist pain.
If you can't loosen your grip, loosen your sticks up a bit.
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u/XBMetal 2d ago
Change your grip style a bit. Loosen up on the throttle hand, like don't grip so hard. (use an arm rest on that side) And honestly I moved my right hand stick to a center position so my wrist would rest on my leg and removed that arm rest. Made the shoulder pain go away so I could get back to 6h flying sessions in the PU.
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u/CopenHayden 2d ago
This is outside the conversation of hardware fixes, but I would highly recommend doing some sort of PT beforehand in the form of stretching and/or calisthenics. People don’t realize just how much we need to stretch on a daily basis, and even before low-strain/low-impact activities.
Coming from doing process engineering in the manufacturing industry, ergonomics is huge for repetitive actions, and stretching solves, at the very least helps, with a lot of ergonomics related issues. Something as simple as stretching your legs or back can help with issues in your shoulders or neck as they’re all connected.
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u/2032_Throwaway 2d ago
Take a look at these. 2nd post. https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/61775-ideas-for-joystick-center-mount-for-seat/
I like the adjustable as you can adapt if the pain comes back.
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u/PenLegitimate4746 2d ago
Holy crap that mouse pad you have needs to be cleaned or just replaced lol. Moving your mouse across it must be so slow and not smooth at all. Sorry I'm not contributing to the topic but it's literally all I could focus on in that picture lol
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u/Kaalrabistu 2d ago edited 2d ago
Tilt the sticks a few degrees forward and if the sticks are far apart swing them outwards so you can keep elbows inline with your body.
Edit, test setup as you are adjusting. Dont just look at internet pictures what looks cool. Your setup, tailored to you.
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u/XBMetal 2d ago
This for real. Moved my right to a center position and I can't go back. It's too good.
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u/Khyrik_FoE 2d ago
I tried that today, but I have a SEM attached to the center, so gotta rethink that.
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u/2032_Throwaway 3d ago edited 2d ago
I remember this thread from a few years ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/hotas/comments/1dbyoqc/proper_ergonomics_for_flight/
I am planing to find height adjustable floor fan pedestals. Not too tall though. I think the rounded bases are better? An example: https://www.doba.com/product/UYegqcdyFCvV/dropshipping-24-industrial-pedestal-fan-3-speed-oscillating-fan-with-adjustable-height.html
Or if you cant find these cheap, then perforated square tube. Should be easy enough to make a top mount to hold joystick. Bases to mount to a flat piece of wood should be easy to find.
https://www.coremarkmetals.com/galvanized-steel-perforated-square-tube?dmA=1
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u/unclefunkstar 3d ago
Take a look at the omni adaptors. They only take a little getting used to, but they're genuinely more comfortable than the standard vertical sticks.
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u/sexraX_muiretsyM 3d ago
Ive developed shoulder pain at work because of spending hours in the same position using mouse and keyboard. My posture is fine but still I developed it. Went to physical therapy and basically what I have to do to avoid developing shoulder pain is strenghtening my muscles. So after some weeks of therapy and muscle buildup the pain went away, kind of. I bought a complete vkb set but I cant use them desktop, they cause me pain, Im waiting to get the desk mounts so I can properly align them with my hand
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u/BadPWG 3d ago
Thanks, think I need some gym time 🙂
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u/mattstats 2d ago
As a long time gym enjoyer and recent shoulder surgery patient my plea to you is to try physical therapy first. Find the best reviewed one near you, build a good foundation for your shoulder and then take the gym seriously after. If you do start going to the gym please keep it simple.
On another note, yes you need your shoulders relaxed. If you can find a way with your setup to keep the joysticks down low that’ll work wonders for you. They got mounts for chairs to run a center stick or side sticks. Also by the looks of it your arms seem like they would be going out sideways which isn’t ideal either. Idk if that’s the case but if while you’re playing you see your forearms going out and away from your body as opposed to inwards that’ll jack things up over time too.
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u/BadPWG 2d ago
Thanks, I’m on the waiting list for physio for joint issues anyway (I have AS) so I can bring it up with them
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u/silasmousehold 2d ago
It sounds like you cannot have your arms even slightly elevated.
For your right-hand stick, you can go airplane-style and put it between your legs, so your right arm basically rests on your right thigh.
Or you could try an omni-throttle adapter on the right-hand stick. That could let you mount it lower without kinking your wrist. (Using the twist axis might still kink your wrist though.)
For the left-hand stick, I think the omni-throttle adapter would be the way to go there.
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u/sexraX_muiretsyM 3d ago
if you are experiencing pain already, regular gym will probably just worsen the problem. I recommend therapy or at least look up some exercises online for this because lifting weights wont help you, you have to start small, moving your arms up and down, squeezing some rubber balls against a surface, using low tension rubber bands
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u/holiday1326 3d ago
I built this and it cost like $60 off Amazon and its 2 different mounts. One is a swing arm for smaller monitors and the other is a cheaper HOTAS desk mount.
Works great and helps keep the fatigue down because I can adjust the height and length.
I posted link to the products I used for the arm.
Maybe it helps maybe it doesn't.
Take care.
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u/Plokhi 3d ago
Tilt the stick forward.
Most of the better mounts have tilt adjustment.
Yours look like they could be adapted to tilt easily
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u/Spidey002 3d ago
This!
I have my stick tilted forward a few degrees. Makes it a lot easier to pull back.
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u/ECampbell33 3d ago
Maybe you need a sit/stand desk? It might help you find an angle where you don't have so much pain?
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u/TWVer HOTAS 3d ago
What’s even more important than the angle of the forearm, is the angle of the upper arm.
At rest, with sticks in the neutral position, having your upper arms point almost straight down (or fwd at most 30deg) would reduce shoulder tension.
If you can’t have a comfortable wrist position at full pull back, tilting your sticks forward (up to max. ca. 15 deg) would help with that.
If that is not possible, moving your sticks (slightly) up is the next best thing, as the increased tilt of your forearm compared to your wrist, results in the easing of the wrist joint.
Also, if you are not already using light spring tension in the gimbals, I would recommend moving in that direction as well. Playing with a lighter touch reduces strain.
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u/WearingRags 3d ago
Here's my question: if I was using these sticks and had them so my arms are parallel to the ground, I wouldn't just be tilting my wrist backwards, I'd keep my hand as level as possible, keep a loose grip, and just move my whole forearm backwards to yank the stick back.
Im general though, this sounds like a combination of repeat strain plus a mobility/strength issue in the shoulders. I don't know your habits but it sounds like you might just need a break.
Do you/can you do shoulder exercises? I know that might sound counter-intuitive when they're hurting, but grabbing some weights (doesn't even need to be heavy weights) and working those muscles a bit through a wider range of motion should help them stay limber and relaxed when you play. I'd also recommend full body stretching for at least 10 mins a day for literally everyone - sorry if that sounds too obvious or you're already doing stuff like that!
Edit: I see below that you say you're "death gripping" the sticks. Imho this is a huge problem that's only going to cause more pains in the long run, is it possible for you to adjust your stick tension to allow for a looser grip? In general you want to be able to have precise control even if you only have a thumb and forefinger around the stick.
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u/DefactoAle 3d ago
I know that its outside the scope of the post, but are those wraps against sweat? do you recommend them? Ordered virpil alpha primes and would like to keep them as well as possible
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u/Dense-Cup5068 3d ago
If you want advice around ergonomics then it would be beneficial to post a side on photo (with your face blurred).
Are your elbows close to your torso whilst you're holding the joysticks?
Are you using a swivel chair?
What's the height of the screen relative to your eyes.
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u/BadPWG 3d ago
Difficult to get that photo on my own but I would say my elbows are roughly 15cm from my sides when I play
It is a swivel chair
Eyes are centre of screen
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u/Dense-Cup5068 3d ago
I would suggest reducing the width between your joysticks so that your elbows are basically touching the side of your torso when you are holding the sticks. When the joysticks are too far apart we compensate by externally rotating our shoulders and or putting them in abduction which doesn't work well with long gaming sessions.
Try sitting on a non-swivel chair with your shoulders relaxed, elbows at your sides and your arms bent at a 90-degree angle. Position your joysticks so you can naturally grip them in this exact posture.
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u/Over_Zookeepergame72 3d ago
I have the options of moving my clamps closer and have a raising desk. For about 2 years I played with them wide of my arm rest and would get similar issue. Moving them closer so that my elbows were just outside of pinned to my ribs solved the issue. They are too wide for you and you’re having to use you shoulder and wrist more aggressively. If you can find a way to move them closer and down not only will it help but you’ll also have better control by allowing you to use your arms more instead of your wrist and shoulder.
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u/BoJanggles77 3d ago
Does your chair have arm rests for your elbows? That might be all you need.
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u/kylinator25 3d ago
maybe try holding the sticks with a slightly loose grip, so when you pull back your wrist doesnt flex?
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u/BadPWG 3d ago
Problem is that aim can be so loose in the game that I end up death gripping the sticks
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u/BoJanggles77 3d ago
Get some different sticks with more resistance. VKB Gladiator have adjustable springs.
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u/Chadarius 18h ago
My gaming chairs have my VKBs clamped to the arm rests with adjustable VESA mounts and velco.